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  1. #41  
    o and btw take a look at the Actual poll

    https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h...ting.pdf&pli=1

    if you doubt the source its the top link from this page AP Poll data - surveys.ap.org | The Associated Press

    and if you dont want to read the whole thing ... skip to page 13
  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    The difference is that there is plenty of low-cost food options for the majority of americans to live on. That was quickly becoming untrue of healthcare. Most people simply cannot afford it if they are not subsidized by their job. Or taxpayers. Plus, you can grow your own food. Cant exactly do your own heart surgery.

    This argument is apples and oranges. See how i did that? Apples and oranges?
    Maybe so, but they're both fruits and point to some of the same issues and problems.

    See how I did that?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. Micael's Avatar
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    That's your best argument against popular opinion on a single-payer?

    Basically all one side is saying is that they know what's best for the majority in spite of what they want. Isn't that EXACTLY what has been used to demonize the Dems from that same side?
    Another non response. Thanks for playing.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by sketch42 View Post
    Everyone wants a piece of the pie , as long as they believe that pie is free...
    No, the pie just has to be less expensive. Or really tasty and the same price. Or the best pie you've ever had in your life and a little more expensive.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    The penalty is not less than $54. want to rephrase? By 2016 the penalty is $695 for an adult and up to $2,095 per family. (or 2.5% of income, whichever is greater)
    Yes....you got it right....but in 2014 the rate these 2 employees would pay now, $56 per month ($672 per year) will likely be higher. As the obama bill pushes rates up even higher, the employer will likely be having to require employees to pay more. But you bring up an excellent point....which do you think will be less....$2,095 per family per year, or the cost for family coverage on a health plan? My guess is that penalty will be pretty attractive. Anyway, you didn't answer the question.....how do we deal with people who pay the penalty until they need the coverage and then go back to the penalty when their health need is done? Don't think it will happen? LOL....think again.
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  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #46  
    Is it lunch time? I'm just saying....
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #47  
    Missing in the healthcare reform is tort reform, competition with insurance companies across state lines...there are some good things in the healthcare bill, but at what cost...the size of the pie for healthcare is limited and the debate is how to slice the pie effectively and efficiently...politics as usual...however, the Democrats should have full responsibility for what this healthcare bill does to the patients, the seniors, and physicians. The insurance companies are raising their premiums so they can cover children up to age 26 and soon enough, the insurance company will be forced to insure more people...of course the premiums will go up due to the healthcare bill. The Democrats are the majority in the House and Senate. They own this mess with Healthcare Bill and fixing the economy. One can blame the previous administration only so much, but now the ball has been in the current administration's court.
  8. #48  
    I'm not trying to debate the topic, I just had a quick question;
    Where's the penalty money go?
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    Nothing in the healthcare laws has increased premiums. The first parts of the law just went into effect 3 days ago. Healthcare companies may be raising rates to make you think it is a correllation to the healthcare laws.

    The government cannot force them to lower their premiums. That would be socialist, and the republicans wanted that stripped from the bill. You should vote democrat in november if you are unhappy about that.

    What is the big conspiracy democrats wanted this bill to accomplish?
    Why do you think insurance companies have frozen new policies on children? They are working out the new rates. Rates will be going up on that front if and when they start selling children policies. On the group front, rates have been increased from about 2.5 - 4.0% to handle the new government mandates (100% preventive benefits, coverage for dep under age 26, and no life time caps). And yes, since the government required more things to be covered, it does cause rates to go up. Liberals simply don't understand this concept because government programs don't have to operate in the black.

    Oh....the big conspiracy that democrats wanted this bill to accomplish? Well....failure and thus single payer system, of course! Is this not what you want? A single payer system?
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    I'm not trying to debate the topic, I just had a quick question;
    Where's the penalty money go?
    Good question....I assume to DC and then....well....probably to some other wellfare program. You don't think they would do the right thing with this "found" money do you?
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

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  11. solarus's Avatar
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    Nothing in the healthcare laws has increased premiums. The first parts of the law just went into effect 3 days ago. Healthcare companies may be raising rates to make you think it is a correllation to the healthcare laws.
    Not by written law no, but by effect definitely...

    Insurance is based on the concept (not just in healthcare) that you spread risk out allowing for reduced prices. When that risk goes up because you have to cover pre-existing conditions, then of course premiums have to go up to cover the expected increase in overall costs the insurance company will have to pay. Therefore, the mandate that pre-existing conditions be covered effectively forced up premium rates as it increased risk.

    I personally would love to see a government safety net for those that cannot afford coverage, but not at the expense of free market solutions that provide real "cost of access" solutions - which I'm sure you would agree, don't really exist at this time. One particular plan I like is below (supplemented with some government assistance for those that need it).

    Fixing the broken healthcare system on clarkhoward.com
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Why do you think insurance companies have frozen new policies on children? They are working out the new rates. Rates will be going up on that front if and when they start selling children policies. On the group front, rates have been increased from about 2.5 - 4.0% to handle the new government mandates (100% preventive benefits, coverage for dep under age 26, and no life time caps). And yes, since the government required more things to be covered, it does cause rates to go up. Liberals simply don't understand this concept because government programs don't have to operate in the black.

    Oh....the big conspiracy that democrats wanted this bill to accomplish? Well....failure and thus single payer system, of course! Is this not what you want? A single payer system?
    The "policies on children" thing is a red herring, as they represent a tiny fraction of policies. I sure as hell don't know anybody who has one, do you? Why would anybody get a policy on their kid only when they could get it on themselves and their kid for way less than twice the kid alone premium would be?
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by foosball View Post
    Sounds like a good match for you then.

    Never ceases to amaze me how lefties pine to turn the one safe haven from Euro-socialism into Euro-socialism. I'm all for having choices but turning America into Europe is not about providing choice, its about limiting freedom.
    And in the case of healthcare reform, you're losing what freedoms, exactly?
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    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    I would move to Canada if possible. Their economy is trouncing ours. Mostly because their banks dont run the politicians over there. Well, that and they do obvious things like universal healthcare, and balancing their budgets.

    You may want to do some research on Canadian income tax rates. Taxes are very close or lower thank in the US. Their highest tax rate is 29%, and you dont even pay that amount on your entire income. Only on everything you earn above $125,000.

    Top tax bracket is 35% in the US and you pay that on your entire income.
    your understanding of the Canadian tax system is correct, but you're missing on very important part - you quote only the basic Federal taxation rates. Each province imposes a further income tax. this varies by province, but ontario, for example, adds a further 6-11% (graduated, as it is with Federal rates). So the total marginal rate for high-income Canadian citizen can easily be as high as 41% on an additional dollar of income. it's more complicated than that (as there are credits and some other surcharges), but by way of example, had I earned another $10 of income in 2009, I would have paid an additional $4.34 of tax.

    due to the graduated phase in of tax rates over income levels, it becomes quite difficult to do a straight-up, rate for rate comparison between countries. but i'd say that, on average, tax rates are slightly higher in Canada than the U.S. but we do have universal health care, so in my opinion, it is money well spent.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by rivum View Post
    your understanding of the Canadian tax system is correct, but you're missing on very important part - you quote only the basic Federal taxation rates. Each province imposes a further income tax. this varies by province, but usually adds a further 6-11% (graduated, as it is with Federal rates). So the total marginal rate for high-income Canadian citizen can easily be as high as 41% on an additional dollar of income. it's more complicated than that (as there are credits and some other surcharges), but by way of example, had I earned another $10 of income in 2009, I would have paid an additional $4.34 of tax.
    And what do/would your kids pay to go to a Canadian university?
  16. rivum's Avatar
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    And what do/would your kids pay to go to a Canadian university?
    quite a bit less than in the U.S.
    not sure where you're going with that. justifying the extra tax revenue, i suppose. which i agree with.
    really, i'm just trying to ensure everyone is working with correct facts! wouldn't want anyone to theorize under the assumption that we here in canada are getting more for less!
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by rivum View Post
    your understanding of the Canadian tax system is correct, but you're missing on very important part - you quote only the basic Federal taxation rates. Each province imposes a further income tax. this varies by province, but ontario, for example, adds a further 6-11% (graduated, as it is with Federal rates). So the total marginal rate for high-income Canadian citizen can easily be as high as 41% on an additional dollar of income. it's more complicated than that (as there are credits and some other surcharges), but by way of example, had I earned another $10 of income in 2009, I would have paid an additional $4.34 of tax.

    due to the graduated phase in of tax rates over income levels, it becomes quite difficult to do a straight-up, rate for rate comparison between countries. but i'd say that, on average, tax rates are slightly higher in Canada than the U.S. but we do have universal health care, so in my opinion, it is money well spent.
    Actually it's not that difficult to do a straight up comparison. The taxes imposed by separate provinces shouldn't be that dissimilar to the taxes imposed by each state's own tax system. We're only trying to compare the federal systems and we in the US realize that each state will then impose it's own taxes on top of what the Fed taxes.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by rivum View Post
    quite a bit less than in the U.S.
    not sure where you're going with that. justifying the extra tax revenue, i suppose. which i agree with.
    really, i'm just trying to ensure everyone is working with correct facts! wouldn't want anyone to theorize under the assumption that we here in canada are getting more for less!
    As in ~$4800.00 US per year at University of Toronto, listed here

    Top Universities in North America 2010-2011

    as better than Penn, Carnegie Mellon, Columbia, Duke, Northwestern, and the University of Washington here in the States.

    A Washington resident would pay twice that to go to school, and a non-resident would pay 5 times that. To go to a place like Columbia, you're talking 9 or 10 times that.

    Yes, just anticipating the argument that your taxes are higher than ours because of your healthcare system. I suspect that healthcare and education are only two of the benefits you receive for your money.

    I'd wager that our extra expenses for healthcare, education, etc., account for more than the difference in taxes.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    we have the same system set up by a governor in MAssachusettes (a republican governor mind you). And the evidence from that experiment seems to prove your point WRONG. I believe it is 97% coverage. There will always be that 3% in anything in life. If you consider full employment is 95%, I'd say the mandated healthcare is a success.

    People understand that the $2,095 penalty is not the only cost to not having insurance. They also risk bankruptcy and losing all their savings and possessions.
    That's what's hilarious. So-called "Obamacare" is actually a virtual carbon copy of "Romneycare," and Romney, the free-market business dude, ran for President on the GOP ticket. The term "Obamacare" is a joke, since the bill that passed does not contain many of the things he said he preferred.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    That's what's hilarious. So-called "Obamacare" is actually a virtual carbon copy of "Romneycare," and Romney, the free-market business dude, ran for President on the GOP ticket. The term "Obamacare" is a joke, since the bill that passed does not contain many of the things he said he preferred.
    Yea but "Watered-down-attempt-at-bipartisanship-care" just isn't as catchy as "Obamacare".
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