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  1. #441  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    By all means continue to misrepresent what you know is my position, since you don't really have an answer to it. I have never said, and never thought, that "everyone should have the same thing". Just because you can't force yourself to say the ethical thing....that all people should have adequate, high quality health care....you feel obligated to paint everything about that single reasonable thought as socialist. You really should listen to Micael a bit more, as he doesn't let his political view interfere with common sense. Most people think having safe, adequate health care is not the same thing as having a second home, or having a nice car, although to you they appear to be the same thing. You might consider looking in the mirror or spending some time with people who can't get the care that you have. You might learn something about yourself. Maybe.
    You apparently either never listened to what I thought on real healthcare reform or you just choose to ignore it because it didn't involve a complete government take over. Listen, we get it, you believe the wealthy should pay for healthcare for everyone....I get it....you believe that those that have worked to become successful should pay for everyone else. I really do get that. It is simple.....you think we should live like Europeans and I believe we should strive to avoid living like them. I think part of the problem is when you look in the mirror, you see someone who lives extremely well because you made a nice profit off of those who had health issues.....and I think that kind of bothers you. Because, you see, you find fault in others who make a profit off of healthcare, but are having a tough time coming to grips that you have all your wealth and high income from the exact same thing. You just need to realize that you, davidra, are part of the reason we have high premiums.
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  2. #442  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    ok, that is what you believe, if you want me to believe that than prove that they lied..
    He lies all the time....like when he said if we wanted to keep our health coverage we could...that is simply not true....because his healthcare reform is causing employers to make changes that they otherwise wouldn't have made. Wait until employers over 50 can make the decision to either continue to provide group health coverage or opt out by paying a $2000 fine per employee. Many companies will make a decision, because of evil profits, that it is less expensive to pay the fine than to continue to provide the health coverage that their employees liked. Another quick lie that comes to mind is the issue over attacking the Chamber for using foreign money to fund their adds. They had no evidence of that, and when challenged (by a liberal talk show host, I might add) on that fact, their come back was "well do you have evidence that they haven't".



    obama lies all the time and its really getting pathetic. Oh....wait....let's use axelrod's method...so you have evidence that he doesn't ever lie? LOL
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  3. #443  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Lobbying by the BCBS association, and wrongdoings by individual companies under the BCBS brand. They're separate.
    Nope - lobbying congress to stifle regulation and removing local competition (IMO) are each part of a coordinated business plan by blue cross to corner the national health insurance market (which they have nearly done). According to the AMA, this stifling of competition has a detrimental effect on the cost of health care in our country and I agree with them. Granted, this prosecution will need to take place at the local level.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 10/20/2010 at 07:35 PM.
  4. JDAustin's Avatar
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    #444  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Nope - lobbying congress to stifle regulation and removing local competition (IMO) are each part of a coordinated business plan by blue cross to control of the national health care market (which they have accomplished). According to the AMA, this stifling of competition has a detrimental effect on the cost of health care in our country and I agree with them.
    Remember that large corporations are not interested in a free market. They would much rather have a regulated market where they have guaranteed profits and the barrier of entry is impossibly high. A free market, with only the regulations needed to maintain reasonable consumer safety, would force many large corps to either become more efficient or to outright fail (and no corporation is to big to fail, if that were true, then the corp should be broken up into smaller parts).
  5. #445  
    Quote Originally Posted by JDAustin View Post
    Remember that large corporations are not interested in a free market. They would much rather have a regulated market where they have guaranteed profits and the barrier of entry is impossibly high. A free market, with only the regulations needed to maintain reasonable consumer safety, would force many large corps to either become more efficient or to outright fail (and no corporation is to big to fail, if that were true, then the corp should be broken up into smaller parts).
    Thats true and as you say, it's not a free market or unfriittered healthy competition that the are lobbying for but just the opposite - the ability to force out competing companies so they can dominate the market themselves ( which they have done).
  6. #446  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    He lies all the time....like when he said if we wanted to keep our health coverage we could...that is simply not true....because his healthcare reform is causing employers to make changes that they otherwise wouldn't have made. Wait until employers over 50 can make the decision to either continue to provide group health coverage or opt out by paying a $2000 fine per employee. Many companies will make a decision, because of evil profits, that it is less expensive to pay the fine than to continue to provide the health coverage that their employees liked. Another quick lie that comes to mind is the issue over attacking the Chamber for using foreign money to fund their adds. They had no evidence of that, and when challenged (by a liberal talk show host, I might add) on that fact, their come back was "well do you have evidence that they haven't".



    obama lies all the time and its really getting pathetic. Oh....wait....let's use axelrod's method...so you have evidence that he doesn't ever lie? LOL
    That rational is quite a stretch, he can no more control what an employer does than you can. I will ask this, did Bush ever lie. Have other presidents ever lied. Have insurance corps ever lied. But ok, you believe what you wish. You didnt convince me he lied.
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  7.    #447  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    You apparently either never listened to what I thought on real healthcare reform or you just choose to ignore it because it didn't involve a complete government take over. Listen, we get it, you believe the wealthy should pay for healthcare for everyone....I get it....you believe that those that have worked to become successful should pay for everyone else. I really do get that. It is simple.....you think we should live like Europeans and I believe we should strive to avoid living like them. I think part of the problem is when you look in the mirror, you see someone who lives extremely well because you made a nice profit off of those who had health issues.....and I think that kind of bothers you. Because, you see, you find fault in others who make a profit off of healthcare, but are having a tough time coming to grips that you have all your wealth and high income from the exact same thing. You just need to realize that you, davidra, are part of the reason we have high premiums.
    The level of your comprehension is laughable. Where to start? I don't believe the wealthy should pay for healthcare for everyone; I believe everyone should pay for healthcare for everyone. And again you ignored the fact that I said nothing about "living like Europeans", and I addressed nothing but health care. You can't seem to understand that most people believe health care is different than wealth, but you can't seem to grasp that concept. As for what bothers me, it's people that lack the understanding, compassion, and selflessness to be concerned about the health of those they know nothing about.
    In terms of "making a profit off of health issues", believe me, I am quite comfortable with my own situation. Let's just say I feel fortunate to be able to provide the care I do, at work and as a volunteer on a regular basis. I have no problem, for instance, being salaried and doing something I love, although I certainly could have made much more money in a different setting. I "find fault" in those making a profit in health care who PROVIDE NO HEALTH CARE SERVICES. Not exactly sure why that concept is beyond your grasp. You see, people like lab techs, janitors, nurses, transport people....they all actually provide care to people who need it. Should they be paid 25% less because you want your insurance companies and yourself to make a profit? I say no. You can limit your comments to doctors if you want but since they actually get a relatively small proportion of the health care dollar, your obession with them is misplaced. But then again, so are your sensibilities. You are interested in making sure yourself and your buddies get their profits first. Luckily, many people are not. It's clear you have no concept of how miserable life can be for those who are ill and have no way to get treatment, and until you do, you will continue to spin your "socialist" nonsense and fail to understand the difference between health care and having a Mercedes.
  8.    #448  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    He lies all the time....like when he said if we wanted to keep our health coverage we could...that is simply not true....because his healthcare reform is causing employers to make changes that they otherwise wouldn't have made.
    Really? Can you give me one example where people with existing coverage have had their coverage cancelled because of the health care bill? Can you prove that the changes are actually needed, or just a profit grab by your buddies? And as has already been noted, rates go up every year. Are you aware of any time in recent history where health insurance rates have been stable for more than two years? Or gone down?

    Insurance companies are not under his control, and are using this, as was proven in California, to raise their premiums when they have no idea whatsoever what the implications of the bill will be. Fine, they get to do that, but you can't blame that on Obama. Well, you can, but you'd be wrong, but you're used to that.
  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #449  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Nope - lobbying congress to stifle regulation and removing local competition (IMO) are each part of a coordinated business plan by blue cross to corner the national health insurance market (which they have nearly done). According to the AMA, this stifling of competition has a detrimental effect on the cost of health care in our country and I agree with them. Granted, this prosecution will need to take place at the local level.
    Why do you insist on combining two separate topics totally? Prosecute them for what? Lobbying?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #450  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Why do you insist on combining two separate topics
    You keep trying to make them seem separate, but the nationwide domination of the health care markets by blue cross would not have been possible without the lobbying and it seems like a very well thought out strategy. Anyway it's clear you don't agree and I respect that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Prosecute them for what? Lobbying?
    no, you know quite well what they are being prosecuted for in Michigan, and you must suspect there are going to be more prosecutions too. I did not realize this was going to be the administrations policy at the time the legislation was passed because I did not realize how severe the problem of monopolization of the health care market was. But I suspect those who were doing it knew quite well and worried that if someone who was not in their pocket started going after them with anti trust prosecution they would be in trouble. So anyway, I'm just speaking what's on my mind and the direction that I feel the health insurance industry is headed now. I know I sound like a broken record and for that I'm sorry. I will not belabor my point further.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 10/21/2010 at 08:07 AM.
  11. #451  
    we should have govt healthcare and pay-go, that way i can buy the level of care i want and those who can't get basic care...oh wait a tick...we already have that...
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  12.    #452  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhodnettejr View Post
    we should have govt healthcare and pay-go, that way i can buy the level of care i want and those who can't get basic care...oh wait a tick...we already have that...
    I agree with everything you said....except we don't have it. If we did there wouldn't be 30 million uninsured. The poor have insurance, the well-employed have insurance, if you're over 65 you have health insurance....but if you're a working person who happens to work in place without benefits, you are uninsured. A two-tiered system would be fine....if we had one.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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    #453  
    (He's including the illegal aliens in that 30 million)
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #454  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The level of your comprehension is laughable. Where to start? I don't believe the wealthy should pay for healthcare for everyone; I believe everyone should pay for healthcare for everyone. And again you ignored the fact that I said nothing about "living like Europeans", and I addressed nothing but health care. You can't seem to understand that most people believe health care is different than wealth, but you can't seem to grasp that concept. As for what bothers me, it's people that lack the understanding, compassion, and selflessness to be concerned about the health of those they know nothing about.
    In terms of "making a profit off of health issues", believe me, I am quite comfortable with my own situation. Let's just say I feel fortunate to be able to provide the care I do, at work and as a volunteer on a regular basis. I have no problem, for instance, being salaried and doing something I love, although I certainly could have made much more money in a different setting. I "find fault" in those making a profit in health care who PROVIDE NO HEALTH CARE SERVICES. Not exactly sure why that concept is beyond your grasp. You see, people like lab techs, janitors, nurses, transport people....they all actually provide care to people who need it. Should they be paid 25% less because you want your insurance companies and yourself to make a profit? I say no. You can limit your comments to doctors if you want but since they actually get a relatively small proportion of the health care dollar, your obession with them is misplaced. But then again, so are your sensibilities. You are interested in making sure yourself and your buddies get their profits first. Luckily, many people are not. It's clear you have no concept of how miserable life can be for those who are ill and have no way to get treatment, and until you do, you will continue to spin your "socialist" nonsense and fail to understand the difference between health care and having a Mercedes.
    I don't own a Mercedes....never been my kind of car. Yes, we conservatives are all about killing children and adults just like the democrat from FL said last year...."they want you to die". Jump off your pedestal davidra (of course, please be careful when you do so). I just enjoy how you continue to think that your way is the only way....it's either government rules all or it doesn't work. As I've said before, they (obama and the libs) could have come out with something that would have worked, that could have gotten many Republicans on board, and not designed to fail but you see, that wasn't the goal. Their goal was to shove anything out there so they could take credit (and for it to fail later so then they could come running to the rescue). democrats are all about taking credit for providing any and everything regardless of what it affects or costs. It's called power....or the need for power. You can continue to live in your little socialistic world. I will continue to say what obama is all about....spreading the wealth. And pelosi backed that up with her little speech the other day when she talked about trying to make everything "fair".

    I will say I'm glad you are interested in everyone paying for healthcare...which is odd....because most of the taxes that showed up in PPACA tend to fall on those that make over $250k
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  15. #455  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    That rational is quite a stretch, he can no more control what an employer does than you can. I will ask this, did Bush ever lie. Have other presidents ever lied. Have insurance corps ever lied. But ok, you believe what you wish. You didnt convince me he lied.
    LOL....you pulled an axelrod on the Bush question. Excellent! And yes....unfortunately....we (humans) have probably all lied at some time. I apologize if by saying that obama lies I somehow indicated that I never have. But, I don't believe I have ever lied to the American people. Now....a lie to me is making a promise or insinuating something would work a certain way when that person knows it won't or can't. To promise that you could "keep your health plan if you like it" to make people go, "oh, well, this won't change things because I like my plan and obama said I could keep it", is just a bit disingenious. You might call that something else, but I call it a lie. It wouldn't pass the 4-Way Test
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  16. #456  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    (He's including the illegal aliens in that 30 million)
    That also includes those people who are offered group coverage and refuse it because "I can just go to the clinic". Yes, I've said this before, but I actually had 2 people recently turn down group coverage with that excuse. But you say the coverage was way too expensive? Hardly, try $13 per week (these two guys make probably $50k - $60k a year). I'm willing to bet we could have found $13 a week being wasted somewhere else that could have allowed them to pay this. I know one of them smokes, I'll go out on a limb and say they spend at least that amount on cigs each week.
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  17. #457  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I agree with everything you said....except we don't have it. If we did there wouldn't be 30 million uninsured. The poor have insurance, the well-employed have insurance, if you're over 65 you have health insurance....but if you're a working person who happens to work in place without benefits, you are uninsured. A two-tiered system would be fine....if we had one.
    working people need to buy their own insurance...if they can't then perhaps they should drop the cell phones, cable, 2nd car payment, multiple credit cards and huge mortgage...
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  18.    #458  
    Quote Originally Posted by jhodnettejr View Post
    working people need to buy their own insurance...if they can't then perhaps they should drop the cell phones, cable, 2nd car payment, multiple credit cards and huge mortgage...
    Hey, whatever you do, keep stereotyping about people that apparently you know nothing about, because those are not the working people I see without insurance. Did it cross your mind that it may be more than they can afford? Have you ever tried to buy non-group insurance for a family? It's more than $13 a week, regardless of what Clem Kadidilhopper says.
  19.    #459  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    IYes, we conservatives are all about killing children and adults just like the democrat from FL said last year...."they want you to die". Jump off your pedestal davidra (of course, please be careful when you do so). I just enjoy how you continue to think that your way is the only way....it's either government rules all or it doesn't work. As I've said before, they (obama and the libs) could have come out with something that would have worked, that could have gotten many Republicans on board, and not designed to fail but you see, that wasn't the goal. Their goal was to shove anything out there so they could take credit (and for it to fail later so then they could come running to the rescue). democrats are all about taking credit for providing any and everything regardless of what it affects or costs. It's called power....or the need for power. You can continue to live in your little socialistic world. I will continue to say what obama is all about....spreading the wealth. And pelosi backed that up with her little speech the other day when she talked about trying to make everything "fair".
    I don't think you're really in favor of "killing" children, you just act like you don't much care what happens to them.

    The republican health care plans, as I just posted earlier in this thread, were an embarrassment, covered nobody and cost more than the democratic plan. Don't give anyone this carp about how the republicans could have come up with something. They never have, and they never would.

    Socialistic world? Me? Hardly. Frankly, For you to post, there are two givens: you will fall back on two crutches: Obama lies and everybody who favors health care is a socialist. I don't really care that you know nothing about what "socialism" is and how it relates to my world. You can't begin to understand it anyway; that is patently clear. I don't believe that the government should provide free cars, or housing, or transportation, or energy. I like that they provide education, and public safety, and nice roads to drive on, I admit, but that's hardly a socialist scheme. What it boils down to is that I think everyone in the country should have access to safe, affordable care. Nothing more, nothing less. The fact that you think that makes my world "socialist", as I said, just demonstrates how little you know about socialism. And just to demonstrate even more that you don't pay attention, how many times have I said that it didn't make any difference to me HOW this was accomplished, whether it was public or private or a combination? Why do you keep forgetting that? Of course, the problem is that the private sector will never be able to do that, as best I can tell, so what will be will be. But if they figure out a way to do it that actually covers people and actually provides affordable care, I'm all for it.

    Really, do you actually read what you write and think about it before you post it?
    Last edited by davidra; 10/21/2010 at 02:38 PM.
  20. #460  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Hey, whatever you do, keep stereotyping about people that apparently you know nothing about, because those are not the working people I see without insurance. Did it cross your mind that it may be more than they can afford? yesHave you ever tried to buy non-group insurance for a family?yes!!! It's more than $13 a week, regardless of what Clem Kadidilhopper says.
    ...and obamacare will only make it harder for them....admittedly so, the point of obamacare is NOT to lower insurance rates or increase access to private coverage or increase access to healthcare itself....again, why the charade, let's just go all the way to universal, single payer...thats the end game anyway....obamacare will make insurance costs rise, more companies will not offer group coverage, and more people fall into the government insurance program....
    Last edited by jhodnettejr; 10/21/2010 at 02:46 PM.
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