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  1. #401  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I forgot about this little nugget that 60 Minutes reported on about a year ago:

    Annual Medicare Fraud: $60 Billion; Annual Profits of Top Ten Insurance Companies: $8 billion | The Weekly Standard

    So, rather than worry about the evil insurance company's profits, seem like we should worry more about the Medicare fraud. I applaud obama if he had anything to do with that recent Medicare fraud "bust", but seems like it might benefit us if we concentrated more on that. I just wonder how much fraud will occur once davidra gets his public option.
    Clem, do you honestly believe that the health insurance companies had no input into the provisions of the current health care laws, and that they have somehow been bulldozed by the government to accept them? That's just crazy-talk.
  2. #402  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    It was actually Pelosi who made that crazy staement: "We must pass this bill so we can see what is in it." Good grief.
    If misspeaking were a capital crime, we'd all be dead. I mean, seriously, I realize that this is a great piece of rhetoric, along with the silly idea that the bill was full of tons of stuff nobody knew about.

    Get real. This was probably the most micro-managed, microscopically examined piece of legislation in modern history. Any citizen had access to the complete text, and it was discussed ad nauseum in every medium, more than any other bill in my memory (which, unfortunately, is very long. :-))

    Does that mean there won't be problems? Of course not. But they pale next to the ballooning problem of the status quo, which would have blown up in our faces sooner rather than later, and for those denied coverage and health care, already had.
  3.    #403  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I keep hearing the words of our great Prez obama: "If you like your present health care plan you can keep it". Wellllllllllllllll.....not exactly:

    Boeing pares employee health plan | The Post and Courier, Charleston SC - News, Sports, Entertainment

    "The newly enacted health care reform legislation, while intended to expand access to care for millions of uninsured Americans, also is adding cost pressure as requirements of the new law are phased in over the next several years," wrote Rick Stephens, Boeing's senior vice president for human resources.

    Yup....this is going to continue....it's just sad that our President and the rest of the liberals lied to the American people in order to get their agenda through.
    Their agenda? I'm glad you care so much about those employed Americans who have nice insurance as it is. You never seem to care at all about the 30 million that are uninsured. They have no voice in your world at all. It's those people that are targeted by "their agenda". It's because they give a dam n. Nothing is free. Our country can afford it, and they will, in spite of the "me for myself" attitude that is evidenced by much of the right.
  4. #404  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    Clem, do you honestly believe that the health insurance companies had no input into the provisions of the current health care laws, and that they have somehow been bulldozed by the government to accept them? That's just crazy-talk.
    Grap, yes, I do believe they were honestly left out of the input...well....maybe they were allowed to make suggestions but the academics (?) in the obama admin obviously felt they knew better. Again, I hear from the insurance companies and many did not know exactly how to interpret much of the bill. A huge indication about them not having much say in the bill is the children coverage. I've said enough about that, but the insurance companies can not offer "children only" plans without raising the rates even higher. My guess is they let the writers of the bill know this but it fell on deaf ears.

    LOL....you don't think they have been "bulldozed" to accept them? Good grief. Ask The Principal why they announced they were getting out (running, more like it) of the health care biz. I don't think it was because they felt this was a good deal for them and were going to pass.
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  5. #405  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    If misspeaking were a capital crime, we'd all be dead. I mean, seriously, I realize that this is a great piece of rhetoric, along with the silly idea that the bill was full of tons of stuff nobody knew about.

    Get real. This was probably the most micro-managed, microscopically examined piece of legislation in modern history. Any citizen had access to the complete text, and it was discussed ad nauseum in every medium, more than any other bill in my memory (which, unfortunately, is very long. :-))

    Does that mean there won't be problems? Of course not. But they pale next to the ballooning problem of the status quo, which would have blown up in our faces sooner rather than later, and for those denied coverage and health care, already had.
    Any citizen could have read the bill? Have you tried to read it? Davidra will tell you I'm not the smartest person (actually, davidra is the smartest person), so maybe I'm not the best example to use, but it was not very easy to interpret....especially to even find what you were looking for. And besides, not many people (including the folks who voted yes) took the time to read a 2000+ page bill....I guess you read the whole thing?
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  6. #406  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Their agenda? I'm glad you care so much about those employed Americans who have nice insurance as it is. You never seem to care at all about the 30 million that are uninsured. They have no voice in your world at all. It's those people that are targeted by "their agenda". It's because they give a dam n. Nothing is free. Our country can afford it, and they will, in spite of the "me for myself" attitude that is evidenced by much of the right.
    Their "agenda" being to get to the single/payer system. They had to get a bill that would run insurance companies out of the business first....then....then they will come and "save the day." Man....what would we do without government looking out for us all!
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  7. #407  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I keep hearing the words of our great Prez obama: "If you like your present health care plan you can keep it". Wellllllllllllllll.....not exactly:

    Boeing pares employee health plan | The Post and Courier, Charleston SC - News, Sports, Entertainment

    "The newly enacted health care reform legislation, while intended to expand access to care for millions of uninsured Americans, also is adding cost pressure as requirements of the new law are phased in over the next several years," wrote Rick Stephens, Boeing's senior vice president for human resources.

    Yup....this is going to continue....it's just sad that our President and the rest of the liberals lied to the American people in order to get their agenda through.
    did the prez and the rest of the libs lie to the american public oorrrrrrrrrrrrrrr are the corps using every damn thing at thier disposal to discredit the new system.. NAWWWWWWWWW corps would never lie cheat steal from the american public ..... or would they...
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  8.    #408  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Their "agenda" being to get to the single/payer system. They had to get a bill that would run insurance companies out of the business first....then....then they will come and "save the day." Man....what would we do without government looking out for us all!

    And once again you fail to mention or consider the 30 million uninsured and additional millions underinsured. Time and time again you demonstrate they are not on your radar. You consider it an "agenda". I have no such agenda, all I want is for people to get care. I consider Obama to be exactly the same. Save the day? Yep, for people that are dying and going bankrupt in the present non-system. You know, those people you know or care nothing about.
  9. #409  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    did the prez and the rest of the libs lie to the american public oorrrrrrrrrrrrrrr are the corps using every damn thing at thier disposal to discredit the new system.. NAWWWWWWWWW corps would never lie cheat steal from the american public ..... or would they...
    As I had posted above, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, the 800 pound gorilla of health insurance, is being accused of price-fixing in the state of Michigan, and the Obama administration's federal prosecutors are joining the state attorney general in prosecuting this case. If I were an ally of the health insurance industry (which I'm not) I would be sweating bullets, because this is likely the first out of many cases where the insurance industry is going to be held accountable for the legality of their practices, and for their impact on the costs of health care.

    http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...te=fullarticle
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    #410  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    As I had posted above, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, the 800 pound gorilla of health insurance, is being accused of price-fixing in the state of Michigan, and the Obama administration's federal prosecutors are joining the state attorney general in prosecuting this case. If I were an ally of the health insurance industry (which I'm not) I would be sweating bullets, because this is likely the first out of many cases where the insurance industry is going to be held accountable for the legality of their practices, and for their impact on the costs of health care.

    Blue Cross is accused of price-fixing scheme | freep.com | Detroit Free Press
    BCBS is an association of 39 separate companies, some for profit, some not. It's not the 800 pound gorilla that it was 20 years ago. The BCBS is the franchise brand, but they are really run independantly, with custom programs and products that are tailored to the states in which they reside.

    My only point is that if the one in Mich did something wrong, it doesn't necessarily mean that any of the other companies do it too.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11.    #411  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    BCBS is an association of 39 separate companies, some for profit, some not. It's not the 800 pound gorilla that it was 20 years ago. The BCBS is the franchise brand, but they are really run independantly, with custom programs and products that are tailored to the states in which they reside.

    My only point is that if the one in Mich did something wrong, it doesn't necessarily mean that any of the other companies do it too.
    Nope. Doesn't mean they don't, either. Guess they'll have to be investigated. Which is why they might be "sweating bullets".
  12. Micael's Avatar
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    #412  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Nope. Doesn't mean they don't, either. Guess they'll have to be investigated. Which is why they might be "sweating bullets".
    lol. you love it so.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13.    #413  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    lol. you love it so.
    I will love it when there are no profit-takers who provide no health care services whatsoever but who take up to 25% of each health care dollar for their overhead and profit. Can't happen soon enough.
  14. #414  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    BCBS is an association of 39 separate companies, some for profit, some not. It's not the 800 pound gorilla that it was 20 years ago. The BCBS is the franchise brand, but they are really run independantly, with custom programs and products that are tailored to the states in which they reside.

    My only point is that if the one in Mich did something wrong, it doesn't necessarily mean that any of the other companies do it too.
    As far as Blue Cross is concerned, it is true that, largely on a state by state basis, the organization is split up into 39 subsidiaries. However while you maintain that they are independently operated, their common ability to eliminate competition and dominate the local health care insurance market in which they are located is striking to say the least.

    According to 2009 data, Blue Cross Blue Shield companies had the largest market share in 37 of 44 states that had available data, and had either the largest or second largest market share in 43 of 44 states. So on a state by state basis, the 800 pound Blue Cross Blue Shield gorilla consistently dominates the market.

    If you don't want to take my word for how serious a problem this is in our country, I'll let the AMA make the point for me:

    Quote Originally Posted by 2010 AMA Study Shows Competition Disappearing in the Health Insurance Industry
    Competition in the health insurance industry is disappearing with more markets across the country dominated by one or two insurers, according to the American Medical Association’s newly released edition of Competition in Health Insurance: A Comprehensive Study of U.S. Markets.

    In 24 of the 43 states reported in the new AMA report, the two largest insurers had a combined market share of 70 percent or more. Last year, just 18 of 42 states had two insurers with a combined market share of 70 percent or more.

    “The near total collapse of competitive and dynamic health insurance markets has not helped patients,” said AMA President J. James Rohack, M.D. “As demonstrated by proposed rate hikes in California and other states, health insurers have not shown greater efficiency and lower health care costs. Instead, patient premiums, deductibles and co-payments have soared without an increase in benefits in these increasingly consolidated markets.”

    The new AMA study analyzed 43 states and 313 metropolitan markets against an index used by federal regulators for measuring market concentration. Markets that rate “highly concentrated” according to the federal index are areas of the country where insurer consolidation may have harmful effects on patients, physicians, employers and the economy.

    By reviewing enrollments in private health maintenance organizations (HMOs) and preferred provider organizations (PPOs), the new AMA study found:

    Ninety-nine percent of metropolitan markets are “highly concentrated” according to federal merger guidelines (up from 94 percent metropolitan markets the year before).
    In 54 percent of metropolitan markets, at least one insurer had a market share of 50 percent or greater (up from 40 percent of metropolitan markets the year before).
    In 92 percent of the metropolitan markets, at least one insurers had a market share of 30 percent or greater (up from 89 percent of metropolitan markets the year before).
    “An absence of competition in health insurance markets is clearly not in the best economic interest of patients,” said Dr. Rohack. “The AMA has urged the Department of Justice (DOJ) and state agencies to more aggressively enforce antitrust laws that prohibit harmful mergers.
    As you can see, by going after the Michigan Blue Cross Blue Shield, the Obama administration is simply following the AMA's own recommendations to rectify the consolidation of health insurance companies that occurred during, as the Wall Street Journal kindly put it, the laissez-faire approach of the Bush administration.

    How each of the subsidiaries of Blue Cross/Blue Shield are managing to eliminate competition to dominate the market is not yet known, but my guess is that the Michigan case is the tip of the iceberg and more prosecutions are going to take place.
  15. Micael's Avatar
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    #415  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    As far as Blue Cross is concerned, it is true that, largely on a state by state basis, the organization is split up into 39 subsidiaries.
    No. Not "subsidiaries". Separate companies. They're on different IT systems. Their finances, policies, processes, aren't even remotely tethered in any way.

    They broke away from each other. They pay a fee to a shell organization so they can use the BCBS brand and they may pitch in funds for collective marketing materials, but that's about as far as it goes.

    Anti-insurance company people like to heap them together for arguments sake.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #416  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And once again you fail to mention or consider the 30 million uninsured and additional millions underinsured. Time and time again you demonstrate they are not on your radar. You consider it an "agenda". I have no such agenda, all I want is for people to get care. I consider Obama to be exactly the same. Save the day? Yep, for people that are dying and going bankrupt in the present non-system. You know, those people you know or care nothing about.
    And once again you fail to mention all the people who were quite happy with their health plan. But why should those people matter, right? In the socialistic society that obama is aiming for, everyone should be willing to share, right? The Boeing employees who are now going to have their deductible raised and have to pay more premiums, they should just smile and say in a monotone voice...."we have given so others can have....we have given so others can have....we have given so others can have" I know you believe in that but most Americans don't. Do I give? Yes! I don't need to get into the charities that I give to, but I give to them because, well, I can...I can choose who I give to....and yes, it feels good to give back.
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  17. #417  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I will love it when there are no profit-takers who provide no health care services whatsoever but who take up to 25% of each health care dollar for their overhead and profit. Can't happen soon enough.
    I assume you will also be on board with limiting doctors, who do profit from helping people, to be limited to their profit, correct? What should we limit doctor's profits to? $75K? Maybe a $100k? Now, I do mean after they pay their overhead, but certainly no one should take more than $100k per year when they are supposed to be helping their fellow man, correct? In fact, $100k seems a little high....what would their profit margin be I wonder? I have a client, who is an anesthesiologist who last year (09) made close to $400k on his income and lives in a very wealthy neighborhood with his house looking out over the harbor....now....does that seem right? Should he be making that kind of money off of people in need?
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  18. #418  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    No. Not "subsidiaries". Separate companies. They're on different IT systems. Their finances, policies, processes, aren't even remotely tethered in any way.

    They broke away from each other. They pay a fee to a shell organization so they can use the BCBS brand and they may pitch in funds for collective marketing materials, but that's about as far as it goes.

    Anti-insurance company people like to heap them together for arguments sake.
    Yup...Micael is 100% correct....here in SC the BC/BS is a totally separate company from BC/BS of NC or GA. Now, they do try and work out some reciprical agreements from a network standpoint, but totally different companies.
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  19.    #419  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I assume you will also be on board with limiting doctors, who do profit from helping people, to be limited to their profit, correct? What should we limit doctor's profits to? $75K? Maybe a $100k? Now, I do mean after they pay their overhead, but certainly no one should take more than $100k per year when they are supposed to be helping their fellow man, correct? In fact, $100k seems a little high....what would their profit margin be I wonder? I have a client, who is an anesthesiologist who last year (09) made close to $400k on his income and lives in a very wealthy neighborhood with his house looking out over the harbor....now....does that seem right? Should he be making that kind of money off of people in need?
    I don't know what's fair, but I know what's not. Should a health insurance CEO who provides no direct care in any way be making millions of dollars? When you are being put to sleep, would you rather have the insurance CEO there or the doctor, who spends many years being trained and graduates with an average debt of $150,000 at age 31 or 32? As usual, you miss the point. You believe in getting what you pay for, right? What do you actually GET from paying an insurance company, seeing as they get 25% of your money? How much are you willing to pay to have a competent physician? What do you think they should make? Do you view your health as you do your auto repair? And you should know by now that I am not afraid of suggesting that reimbursement rates might need to be adjusted in order to be able to provide quality care to everyone, so you are barking up the wrong tree.
  20.    #420  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    And once again you fail to mention all the people who were quite happy with their health plan. But why should those people matter, right? In the socialistic society that obama is aiming for, everyone should be willing to share, right? The Boeing employees who are now going to have their deductible raised and have to pay more premiums, they should just smile and say in a monotone voice...."we have given so others can have....we have given so others can have....we have given so others can have" I know you believe in that but most Americans don't. Do I give? Yes! I don't need to get into the charities that I give to, but I give to them because, well, I can...I can choose who I give to....and yes, it feels good to give back.
    It's amazing how limited your view is, but not surprising. I believe Boeing should be relieved of having to provide insurance, so why should I feel sorry for their well-paid employees who have to increase their deductible? They have insurance. That's more than millions and millions of people have. You also "donate" to Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, Social Security, the Palmetto state, your wonderful governor and senators....so please don't bother to make out the health care plan any more socialist than what you have been providing for many many years. Right? In fact, it's much less "socialist" as it uses private insurers, which is unfortunate but true.

    Yes, you have accurately determined what I believe. I do believe that most people in this country want everyone to have quality health care, and they are willing to help fund it. You got a problem with that? Maybe you really do, maybe you really don't care if people get health care or not. After all, you give to charity. BFD.

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