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  1.    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    He didn't address health care costs, only coverage - i.e., health care insurance companies were made the villains. While I'm sure any google savvy person can come up with some insurance company wrongdoings, there's plenty of other things that could have been done to reduce costs while increasing options for patients.

    Obama's health care policy was about taking control of insurance companies.

    Meanwhile, he's failed on the critical things we've badly needed for him to address, like jobs and the economy.
    From your perspective. From mine, he couldn't have done anything better. Could it be he realized that if he didn't do something about health care, it would never happen? I think he was right. You will never be able to repeal those important parts of the bill (which are supported by republicans because they have no choice), and those alone make his effort historic. Now maybe we can move forward to improve parts that aren't so good, but the fact is that 30 million people will not have to fear bankruptcy if they get sick.

    Given the percent of the GDP that is made up of health care costs, anyone that thinks that the economy and health care costs aren't closely entwined needs to read that health care policy review book. Of course, that would require someone actually have some knowledge to go along with political bias.
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    From your perspective. From mine, he couldn't have done anything better. Could it be he realized that if he didn't do something about health care, it would never happen? I think he was right. You will never be able to repeal those important parts of the bill (which are supported by republicans because they have no choice), and those alone make his effort historic. Now maybe we can move forward to improve parts that aren't so good, but the fact is that 30 million people will not have to fear bankruptcy if they get sick.

    Given the percent of the GDP that is made up of health care costs, anyone that thinks that the economy and health care costs aren't closely entwined needs to read that health care policy review book. Of course, that would require someone actually have some knowledge to go along with political bias.
    All spin. Tell that to the still unemployed.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3.    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    All spin. Tell that to the still unemployed.
    You mean those whose benefits were denied by the republicans? Or do you mean those who didn't have health insurance even when they were working? Jobs are important. When you have leukemia or get hit by a truck, health care becomes even more important. So does keeping your family solvent when that happens. There is no way of knowing if anything he did about employment would have been more successful than what he (and Bush) did, and even if it had been more successful there would be lots of republicans complaining about it. But he did do something about health care, which nobody has done since 1964. Historic.
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    All spin, tell that to the still employed
    lol. what?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by stung View Post
    [url= Understanding Health Policy, Fifth Edition (LANGE Clinical Medicine) (9780071496063): Thomas Bodenheimer, Kevin Grumbach: Gateway[/url]

    This was required reading for me. Have you read it?
    That's the problem. It's not about health policy, its about economics.

    Required reading "The Road to Serfdom":

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226320553?ie=UTF8&force-full-site=1
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You mean those whose benefits were denied by the republicans? Or do you mean those who didn't have health insurance even when they were working? Jobs are important. When you have leukemia or get hit by a truck, health care becomes even more important. So does keeping your family solvent when that happens. There is no way of knowing if anything he did about employment would have been more successful than what he (and Bush) did, and even if it had been more successful there would be lots of republicans complaining about it. But he did do something about health care, which nobody has done since 1964. Historic.
    What's historic is his failure. I've already enumerated the ways ad infinitum.

    Here's some direct questions for you, David.

    Why have you started yet another health care debate thread when I think you've started 5 or 6 in the past?

    And - you guys won the debate and got the bill passed; it's done. You won. People are saying that there's no going back. Maybe bits will be repealed, but the framework for a future single-payer is in place. So, why do you insist on rehashing this over and over again?

    Perhaps because this is the only "positive" debate topic you have to lean on?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    What's historic is his failure. I've already enumerated the ways ad infinitum.

    Here's some direct questions for you, David.

    Why have you started yet another health care debate thread when I think you've started 5 or 6 in the past?

    And - you guys won the debate and got the bill passed; it's done. You won. People are saying that there's no going back. Maybe bits will be repealed, but the framework for a future single-payer is in place. So, why do you insist on rehashing this over and over again?

    Perhaps because this is the only "positive" debate topic you have to lean on?
    How about because I became tired of republicans claiming that the majority of Americans want to repeal the law because it's too intrusive....and a brand-new poll (the first I've seen of its kind) says quite the opposite.

    You know how people complain about political threads in the off-topic section? Frankly, most of the carp that takes place in the off-topic forum is not worth my time. Politics and health care are. They actually have consequences that matter. So sue me.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    How is the framework for a future single-payer system in place?
    I believe Miceal is under the impression that this bill was specifically designed to fail and harken to the need for a single-payer system to replace it after it fails.
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    I believe Miceal is under the impression that this bill was specifically designed to fail and harken to the need for a single-payer system to replace it after it fails.
    Please don't attribute any conspiracy theories to me. I can generate them just fine on my own, thanks.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    Darn. I was hoping there was actually a way to fallback on a single-payer system if prices went too high.
    Canada and Europe are still open to your citizenship if you want to leave this country for a single payer style.

    Of course their tax rates are sky-high but we won't mention that part until you get over there...ooops.
  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by foosball View Post
    Canada and Europe are still open to your citizenship if you want to leave this country for a single payer style.

    Of course their tax rates are sky-high but we won't mention that part until you get over there.

    First, no need. It will be coming sooner or later, preferably sooner.

    Second, I guess I have to just keep posting this chart. Do you really think Canada's taxes are "sky-high" in comparison to ours? Really?

    Taxes, Income Tax, Tax Rates, Tax updates Business News, Economy
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    I would move to Canada if possible. Their economy is trouncing ours. Mostly because their banks dont run the politicians over there. Well, that and they do obvious things like universal healthcare, and balancing their budgets.

    You may want to do some research on Canadian income tax rates. Taxes are very close or lower thank in the US. Their highest tax rate is 29%, and you dont even pay that amount on your entire income. Only on everything you earn above $125,000.

    Top tax bracket is 35% in the US and you pay that on your entire income.
    Sounds like a good match for you then.

    Never ceases to amaze me how lefties pine to turn the one safe haven from Euro-socialism into Euro-socialism. I'm all for having choices but turning America into Europe is not about providing choice, its about limiting freedom.
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Orion, if they were offering a government program to feed everyone in the country for free - and the food would be adequate and meet nutritional requirements, how many people do you think would sign up? Would you be for such a program?

    edit: and btw, it's mandatory and you have to take that program for food.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by sketch42 View Post
    just because people want more healthcare reform doesnt mean they want the government controlling it.

    Everyone wants a piece of the pie , as long as they believe that pie is free...

    many people dont even know whats in the bill to make any kind of useful descion as to whether it benefits the country as a whole.

    everyone just asks, hey, does this benefit me??
    Well why the Heck NOt?? i work etc....
    I agree....people always want free healthcare. I gave the example of 2 employees (both in their 50s) with one of my group clients who last week turned down coverage for the SECOND time because they didn't want to pay $56 per month. By the way, the employer was going to be paying approximately $400 per month for each of these guys. Now, if it was "free"....I'm sure they would have been all over it. But, as whateverator explained to me, health care isn't free (I really didn't know this, the things I learn in here are amazing!). And by the way, these 2 could have afforded the coverage, but, other more important things to spend their $56 on like cigarettes and adult beverages? They better start working on their budget as they will have no choice come 2014!
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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    I believe Miceal is under the impression that this bill was specifically designed to fail and harken to the need for a single-payer system to replace it after it fails.
    For the record, I also believe the bill was designed to fail. If not, then the makers and signers of the bill are even more stupid than I think because I don't believe it will work....well....without sending premiums even higher. Of course....let's be honest....the democrats who voted for the bill had NOT read it. I like to quote the grand madam pelosi...."We have to pass the bill in order to know what is in it." Gulp....dang....that scares me everytime I see it.
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  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Orion, if they were offering a government program to feed everyone in the country for free - and the food would be adequate and meet nutritional requirements, how many people do you think would sign up? Would you be for such a program?

    edit: and btw, it's mandatory and you have to take that program for food.
    Mmmmm....free food? Will there be apple slices? Wait...would this food really be free?
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  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    The problem with this line of argument is that we will all pay for these people in the long run anyways. We might as well force them to buy it, than have them refuse and end up paying for all of it later anyways.
    Okay....so help with this....these 2 guys refuse to enroll in 2014 and instead get hit with the penalty (which, by the way, is lower than their premiums). So, they end up at the hospital with no health coverage....I guess they get someone to enroll them....so they now have coverage (can't be turned down in 2014 and no pre-ex). Then, when they get out of the hospital, they drop the coverage again. Did we really fix anything?
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  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by EVOandBACK View Post
    This is a mischaracterization. Anyone who followed this seemingly neverending process knew what was in the bill, generally. We had the major bullet points. We knew what was going on. BUT there were a lot of small things changing at the very end. There were 2 different bills out there that were very different. The only thing she was referring to is one of the bills had to pass for us to know how it would end up, written as passed.
    Yes....the major bullet points.....premiums will go down and everyone will have access to health insurance. Thus far, premiums have increased even more and, at least here in SC, insurance companies aren't covering children. Seems like they should have taken those bullets and pointed them back at themselves...or the bill....because it will not accomplish what they said it would....only what they want it to. And you're fooling yourself if you think everyone knew what was in it....like the higher taxes on real estate sales over $500k? I missed that bullet point. I also missed that bullet point on the program for uninsureds before 2014 having to go 6 months without health coverage. Many interesting bullet points went unseen.
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  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Orion, if they were offering a government program to feed everyone in the country for free - and the food would be adequate and meet nutritional requirements, how many people do you think would sign up? Would you be for such a program?

    edit: and btw, it's mandatory and you have to take that program for food.
    That's your best argument against popular opinion on a single-payer?

    Basically all one side is saying is that they know what's best for the majority in spite of what they want. Isn't that EXACTLY what has been used to demonize the Dems from that same side?
  20. #40  
    Sunday’s Today show on NBC and Sunday Morning on CBS presented seemingly contradictory polling results on how much ObamaCare is supported by the American public, although both seemed to be citing the same AP poll. As Meet the Press host David Gregory appeared on Today, anchor Lester Holt suggested that Republicans are going against the majority of Americans in promising to repeal ObamaCare as he vaguely referred to polling data and contended, "But new polling out suggests that most people not only do they not want to, don't want it repealed, they want more added to it," and added, "Do Republicans have to refine this message and take a better look at it?" According to the AP poll as reported at msnbc.com, "four in 10 adults think the new law did not go far enough to change the health care system."

    By contrast, on Sunday Morning, CBS anchor Charles Osgood briefly recounted numbers from the AP poll which suggested that ObamaCare is unpopular. Osgood: "A poll commissioned by the Associated Press finds just 30 percent of Americans in favor of the new health care law, 30 percent are neutral, and 40 percent oppose it. Four out of 10 respondents say the new law doesn’t do enough to change the health care system."



    Read more: NBC Finds Most Americans Oppose Repeal of ObamaCare, But CBS Reports ‘Just 30%’ Favor ObamaCare
    Hmmm ..
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