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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    And highways, air traffic control, disease control, drug safety, defense, education are also somehow accomplished by hundreds of millions of individual choices? How does that work exactly?

    As for the mother of 5 across the street, her situation represents 2.5 percent of TANF recipients according to the latest figures. 50 percent of TANF payments go to households with one child.

    Characteristics and Financial Circumstances - FY 2006
    Your examples are not what I'm talking about. The right makes you responsible for yourself. If you fail, you have only yourself to blame, and you need to pick yourself up and try again. Or not. But don't expect anyone to do it for you. The left believes that we are all responsible for each other's success, so if one person fails, or is unable to pick themselves up, we all need to chip in and help them out.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  2. #142  
    ^Which way is more beneficial as a society? Which way is better for the longterm of a community?
  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    ^Which way is more beneficial as a society? Which way is better for the longterm of a community?
    I would ask for much more personal responsibility. If you are unwiling to do things for yourself, I don't want to be taxed or penalized to help you out. Our society is built upon the shoulders of those who have taken it upon themselves to succeed, not to wait for others to float them by.
    I'm not saying that we shouldn't help each other out when we need it. I just don't want to be told that it's my responsibility to do so. If we do nurture that type of thinking, we end up with citizens that expect to be propped up by others, and believe that those who have become successful somehow owe them something. THAT society will collapse on itself.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Unbelievable.
    A few sitting on all the money and not spreading it around. The start of and liberal argument for wealth distribution. "It's not fair that they're getting rich and we're not!" Newsflash, they are the heads of businesses/corporations. My guess is that they put a ton of work into getting to where they are at. They have a responsibility to the company, the workers, and the shareholders to be as profitable as possible, and with this job comes a high salary.
    I was not referring to "spreading the wealth" but rather stimulating the economy. Cutting taxes to create jobs DOES NOT WORK and does nothing but increase our deficit. The taxes for the extreme rich and large corps has never been lower in this country than they have been for the last 20 or so years and look at where we are now. Where are all of the jobs that were to come of all of this?

    And having a large consumer base does not make for a business-friendly environment. Taxes, regulations, and gov't interference is needed, but when taken to the extreme, makes it incredibly difficult not only to grow as a company, but to survive as well.
    How have regulations and taxes been extreme? Reagan ,Clinton and both Bush's have eased regulations AND taxes and we are still in this mess.
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Your examples are not what I'm talking about. The right makes you responsible for yourself. If you fail, you have only yourself to blame, and you need to pick yourself up and try again. Or not. But don't expect anyone to do it for you. The left believes that we are all responsible for each other's success, so if one person fails, or is unable to pick themselves up, we all need to chip in and help them out.
    Have you ever been on a sports team or in the armed forces? If you have, you would know that you are only as good as your weakest person. The same holds true for our country as I see it. Like the old saying, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." If you don't grease that wheel, it slows down the whole cart...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    But keep it a choice and don't force me to take care of the mother of 5 across the street without a job and yet able to talk on her cell phone while eating McDonald's in front of her cable tv, yet for some reason can't afford healthcare.
    Stereotypical blather. By all means, please let us know how much first-hand experience you have with the people that make up the homeless population, or the Medicaid population. Be specific. Unless you have first-hand information, your opinions are nothing but talking points...and they are wrong.
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    I would ask for much more personal responsibility. If you are unwiling to do things for yourself, I don't want to be taxed or penalized to help you out. Our society is built upon the shoulders of those who have taken it upon themselves to succeed, not to wait for others to float them by.
    I'm not saying that we shouldn't help each other out when we need it. I just don't want to be told that it's my responsibility to do so. If we do nurture that type of thinking, we end up with citizens that expect to be propped up by others, and believe that those who have become successful somehow owe them something. THAT society will collapse on itself.
    You are sadly under the assumption that all of those who are unemployed are nothing but lazy deadbeats...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    I have discovered the core difference between Liberals and Conservatives. It comes down to this: Conservatives feel that an individual should be responsible for himself/herself first and foremost. Liberals believe that an individual should be responsible to the society first and foremost. A fundamental difference in thinking that, when you look at pretty much left vs right argument, you can apply to each person involved in that argument and, based on their answer, see which side they land on. Go ahead, check it out. Look at the posts from each person on this thread. It's amazing how well it works.
    That sounds more like the difference between Utilitarianism and Anarchism.

    The difference in Conservatism and Liberalism is that Conservatives want to slow, prevent, or even reverse social changes. Liberals want to promote both equality and personal freedoms. The idea of liberalism isn't to put society before the individual but to try to balance the two. The idea for conservatism is to try to prevent change regardless of if that change is beneficial or detrimental.

    The balance between society and the individual is a spectrum and different people can hold different views on what is an acceptable balance on what can be a very large spectrum. On the other hand the desire to slow or prevent changes in society is a pretty limited spectrum since the whole concept is to keep things close to the status quo. Those tendencies are a big reason why Republicans are able to present a united front while Democrats always seem divided because of more individuality. If the Democrats truly placed society over the individual then there would have been a LOT of changes made in the first few months of 2009 that fear-mongers from the right have claimed would happen but haven't come close to happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    I'll take responsibility for myself, thank you. If you want to take care of everyone else, that's your choice. But keep it a choice and don't force me to take care of the mother of 5 across the street without a job and yet able to talk on her cell phone while eating McDonald's in front of her cable tv, yet for some reason can't afford healthcare.
    Should the mother of 5 sitting around all day being lazy have health insurance provided to her? No, maybe the kids need to be taken care of (possibly taken away) but not the mother.
    My question to you would be should a mother of 5 working hard every day have her health benefits to her and her family cut so that the company can increase their accumulated profits? And when we talk about accumulated we're talking about things being sat on rather than reinvested into the company to make the company better.
    Last edited by Orion Antares; 09/21/2010 at 06:00 PM.
  9. #149  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    I would ask for much more personal responsibility. If you are unwiling to do things for yourself, I don't want to be taxed or penalized to help you out. Our society is built upon the shoulders of those who have taken it upon themselves to succeed, not to wait for others to float them by.
    I'm not saying that we shouldn't help each other out when we need it. I just don't want to be told that it's my responsibility to do so. If we do nurture that type of thinking, we end up with citizens that expect to be propped up by others, and believe that those who have become successful somehow owe them something. THAT society will collapse on itself.
    Good post.
    I agree.
    Thank you.
  10. Micael's Avatar
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    #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    I have discovered the core difference between Liberals and Conservatives. It comes down to this: Conservatives feel that an individual should be responsible for himself/herself first and foremost. Liberals believe that an individual should be responsible to the society first and foremost. A fundamental difference in thinking that, when you look at pretty much left vs right argument, you can apply to each person involved in that argument and, based on their answer, see which side they land on. Go ahead, check it out. Look at the posts from each person on this thread. It's amazing how well it works.
    I'll take responsibility for myself, thank you. If you want to take care of everyone else, that's your choice. But keep it a choice and don't force me to take care of the mother of 5 across the street without a job and yet able to talk on her cell phone while eating McDonald's in front of her cable tv, yet for some reason can't afford healthcare.
    Great analysis! Another contrast is that the right-sided lean towards individual rights and having the obligation to help his fellow man (with his own money), and the left-sided lean towards the "collective good" (with diminished individual rights and responsibilities) and that BIG Government (with their "oh so smarter than the rest of us" people) is obligated to decide how best to help his fellow man (with somebody else's money).
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Great analysis! Another contrast is that the right-sided lean towards individual rights and having the obligation to help his fellow man (with his own money), and the left-sided lean towards the "collective good" (with diminished individual rights and responsibilities) and that BIG Government (with their "oh so smarter than the rest of us" people) is obligated to decide how best to help his fellow man (with somebody else's money).
    Translation:

    Conservatives: What's in it for me?

    Liberals: What is in it for us?
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  12. Micael's Avatar
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    #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Translation:

    Conservatives: What's in it for me?

    Liberals: What is in it for us?
    meh, I think you missed the point
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    You are sadly under the assumption that all of those who are unemployed are nothing but lazy deadbeats...
    Why would you assume that I assume that? I was unemployed for 6 months through no fault of my own. I worked my *** off during those 6 months to find a job, and finally did so. During that time I made sacrifices in my life to make sure that my needs would be met. No cable tv, no internet (thank you pre for helping me with that one), and I almost sold my car to buy a less expensive new one. Now I'm back to where I started out, sans cable. Don't think I'll ever spend my money on that crap ever again, thanks HD over the air. You're attempt to dismiss my argument by attacking me by lumping my thoughts into an obviously incorrect worldview is weak, but not unexpected. When you don't have a legitimate answer, please just refrain from commenting instead of making yourself look foolish with name-calling that takes no thought at all.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Why would you assume that I assume that?
    "...force me to take care of the mother of 5 across the street without a job and yet able to talk on her cell phone while eating McDonald's in front of her cable tv, yet for some reason can't afford healthcare."


    Sound familiar?

    I was unemployed for 6 months through no fault of my own. I worked my *** off during those 6 months to find a job, and finally did so. During that time I made sacrifices in my life to make sure that my needs would be met. No cable tv, no internet (thank you pre for helping me with that one), and I almost sold my car to buy a less expensive new one.
    I sure hope you were not on unemployment during that time. I wouldn't want you to come off as some sort of hypocrite...

    Now I'm back to where I started out, sans cable. Don't think I'll ever spend my money on that crap ever again, thanks HD over the air. You're attempt to dismiss my argument by attacking me by lumping my thoughts into an obviously incorrect worldview is weak, but not unexpected. When you don't have a legitimate answer, please just refrain from commenting instead of making yourself look foolish with name-calling that takes no thought at all.
    LOL my one little sentence regarding something you yourself said sure struck a nerve. "Don't attack me but I will attack you!" This was not unexpected either...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Your examples are not what I'm talking about. The right makes you responsible for yourself. If you fail, you have only yourself to blame, and you need to pick yourself up and try again. Or not. But don't expect anyone to do it for you. The left believes that we are all responsible for each other's success, so if one person fails, or is unable to pick themselves up, we all need to chip in and help them out.
    It's a bit more subtle than that. Everybody has self-interest. It comes down to whether or not you believe that having a solid society enhances your self-interest. As Adam Smith, the God of capitalism put it, "Every tax, however, is, to the person who pays it, a badge, not of slavery, but of liberty."
  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Should the mother of 5 sitting around all day being lazy have health insurance provided to her? No, maybe the kids need to be taken care of (possibly taken away) but not the mother.
    My question to you would be should a mother of 5 working hard every day have her health benefits to her and her family cut so that the company can increase their accumulated profits? And when we talk about accumulated we're talking about things being sat on rather than reinvested into the company to make the company better.
    Not disagreeing with you, but as I pointed out above, the "mother of 5" is a straw man, er, woman. Half of families receiving government assistance are one parent/one child, and 75% have one or two children. The statistics on *how long* such families receive government assistance also shatter the prevailing stereotypes.
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Stereotypical blather. By all means, please let us know how much first-hand experience you have with the people that make up the homeless population, or the Medicaid population. Be specific. Unless you have first-hand information, your opinions are nothing but talking points...and they are wrong.
    Through college I volunteered at the local Boys and Girls Club in Oshkosh, WI. It made me feel great working with the kids and seeing them grow and overcome the problems they were in. Many came from broken homes or were foster kids, and I met quite a few of the parents/guardians of these children. Some were trying to make ends meet. Others were...not. Gave me a bit of perspective.
    And I'm pretty sure my old neighbor, luckily across the street, was not homeless, since she lived in the apartment, but was indeed sucking off whatever benefit she could get. I'd like to describe the garbage that went on in that house, which was huge and had 9 different apartments filled with like-minded individuals, but really, you had to see it to believe it.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    "...force me to take care of the mother of 5 across the street without a job and yet able to talk on her cell phone while eating McDonald's in front of her cable tv, yet for some reason can't afford healthcare."


    Sound familiar?



    I sure hope you were not on unemployment during that time. I wouldn't want you to come off as some sort of hypocrite...



    LOL my one little sentence regarding something you yourself said sure struck a nerve. "Don't attack me but I will attack you!" This was not unexpected either...
    1) Yes, that does sound familiar. I don't think I included those who are legitimately unemployed and working to find a job. But I guess you can paint me as believing that all the unemployed are lazy slobs if it helps you show that I'm wrong.
    2) Yes, I did get unemployment. Correct me if I'm wrong, but unemployment is paid from the Social Security fund, which I have paid into my entire working life. If I'm forced to partake in that program and pay part of every paycheck towards that fund, why am I a hypocrite for using it? It would make SS a sort of forced unemployment insurance and my payments are my premium. Makes sense to me. You?
    3) Didn't strike a nerve. I just like having intellectual discussions, even when they get heated. There's a difference between attacking an argument and attacking an opponent as a strategy to win the argument, or appear like the winner in others' eyes. If you would like to argue your point, by all means, take lessons from grappler on how to so with facts or educated opinions and not empty personal attacks. Until then, I'm done with you.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Through college I volunteered at the local Boys and Girls Club in Oshkosh, WI. It made me feel great working with the kids and seeing them grow and overcome the problems they were in. Many came from broken homes or were foster kids, and I met quite a few of the parents/guardians of these children. Some were trying to make ends meet. Others were...not. Gave me a bit of perspective.
    And I'm pretty sure my old neighbor, luckily across the street, was not homeless, since she lived in the apartment, but was indeed sucking off whatever benefit she could get. I'd like to describe the garbage that went on in that house, which was huge and had 9 different apartments filled with like-minded individuals, but really, you had to see it to believe it.
    The real question is what percent of people on assistance are truly taking advantage of the system, and what percent truly need it and are working to better their existence. After many years of working with the homeless and uninsured, as well as working with the occasional corporation, my guess is the number of crooks and ethically challenged individuals are similar in both groups. They exist, but they are not nearly the predominant population.

    And with regard to your other post, I'm glad you understand what unemployment support is about. Maybe you can teach the republicans.
  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    It's a bit more subtle than that. Everybody has self-interest. It comes down to whether or not you believe that having a solid society enhances your self-interest. As Adam Smith, the God of capitalism put it, "Every tax, however, is, to the person who pays it, a badge, not of slavery, but of liberty."
    Dude, the reason it was a badge of honor was because, as he said, it meant that you owned something and weren't yourself owned. It was because you could say you weren't a slave. Not really the best example for today's society.
    But I'm glad you said that it comes down to one wanting a solid society. That is exactly what I'm talking about when I point out the fundamental difference between left and right thought.
    To someone on the right, a solid society is formed by those who produce and do not drag on those around them. It is formed by making the individual responsible for his/her own success, and not carrying them through life. Those individuals will gain a strong work ethic and self-confidence, and the society will become stronger because of the type of person who makes it up.
    To someone on the left, a solid society is produced by making sure that no one goes without, whether that individual is a productive member of society or not. That equality among citizens is taken as far as it can, including benefits, material wealth, opportunity, etc.
    Equality is not a bad thing, but the concept has been skewed to mean that "I should be able to have what that person has." or "I should be able to have the job that person has." Nevermind that that person can't afford that new car, or that new cell phone, or that nice apartment, or satellite tv. No one should have to go without those. Nevermind that that person doesn't have the qualifications for the job, or is a lesser candidate. It is owed to them because of their race/color/sex/creed/etc.
    I hate the term, but it does apply. We have become a society of entitlement. The people growing up today are going to see gov't aid as the norm rather than an extreme need. They are going to grow so accustomed to having certain benefits and material objects that they will feel it is their right to have them, rather than a privilege earned through time and hard work. When that happens, our productivity will decrease dramatically and consumption will remain consistent or increase. The money for that imbalance has to come somewhere, so it will come from the wealthy, the business owners, the responsible employed. Then, when jobs are cut to maintain profits, we'll call them greedy. When the wealthy complain that they are being treated unfairly, we'll call them whiners. When the employed homeowners complain about higher taxes and what it's being spent on, we'll call them racist or bigots.
    I'm proud of what I've done so far with my life and where I'm at. I enjoy helping neighbors, friends, family, and even strangers out where I can. I'm not adverse to charity either. But forced charity is robbery in disguise.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
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