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  1. rjwerth's Avatar
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    #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    You're correct of course. Let's COMPLETELY degrade to tribalism and abolish our Central gov't.

    Sigh.
    Gee, you really think the whole country would just collapse if the Federal Government was abolished? You don't think the other 4-5 levels of government we are all under wouldn't just pick up the slack?

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    That being said, REGARDLESS of how November turns out, can we PLEASE start turning out some legislative solutions for the American People?!?!?
    You still believe after a couple trillion dollars of "legislative solutions" that the Federal government is the way to get out of this mess? Perhaps you are right since it is the federal government that got us INTO it in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Sure you can, and that sort of speaks to my point. The first litmus test for a good law is whether its moral. All the other tests about whether a law is practical or enforceable are secondary. Fortunately for those of us in the US, the Constitutionality test helps to weed out immoral laws.
    I'm really having an issue with how you are describing the Constitution and how it is to be used. The Constitution is mostly about how the government is to be run and what it can (and more importantly) can NOT do (though that part seems to be ignored more and more). Yes, indeed, keeping people free is a moral thing, but as you can see via numerous examples, "morality" is for better or worse, relative. I'd like to think that the Constitution is much more concrete and finite.
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    I'm really having an issue with how you are describing the Constitution and how it is to be used. The Constitution is mostly about how the government is to be run and what it can (and more importantly) can NOT do (though that part seems to be ignored more and more). Yes, indeed, keeping people free is a moral thing, but as you can see via numerous examples, "morality" is for better or worse, relative. I'd like to think that the Constitution is much more concrete and finite.
    I'm not really speaking to how the Constitution should be used but, rather, what it is. It is de facto a shield against certain immoral laws. Not a perfect or impenetrable shield, certainly, but a shield nonetheless.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    Gee, you really think the whole country would just collapse if the Federal Government was abolished? You don't think the other 4-5 levels of government we are all under wouldn't just pick up the slack?



    You still believe after a couple trillion dollars of "legislative solutions" that the Federal government is the way to get out of this mess? Perhaps you are right since it is the federal government that got us INTO it in the first place.
    Yes. And just because one keeps repeating "big gov't got us into this mess" does not make it true. Facts are facts and the last 8 years prove there is an ABSOLUTE necessity for strong federal regulation of Corporate America.
  4. #84  
    You know....this whole BS that Reagan raised taxes is just BS. Go look at the history of Federal Income Taxes. Yes, it took him a couple of years to start reducing taxes, but when he became President the top tax bracket was 70%....geez....that is hard to believe....but it was. When he became Prez, the democrats controlled Congress so yes, it took until 1982 for the top rate to get lowered to 50%....but still too high because the democrats still controlled the Congress. Reagan did finally get the top rate down to 38.5% in 1987. He couldn't go in there and wave a magic wand and get it done. So, this is just BS about him raising taxes.....the facts prove it.
    How about looking at Wikipedia and Cspan? Maybe the dems in congress overruled his vetos?

    Reagan raised taxes in 1982 with the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act and the Highway Revenue Act.


    This is fact, he signed it. He didn't have to, but he did.


    In 1983 he raised the Social Security Tax Rate. Again He signed this.


    Oh hey, here is a real "rino" talking all about Reagan and his tax policy.
    "When there is no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth"


    PM me your questions, If I cant find an answer, I'll show you who can.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrloserpunk View Post
    I think what you over look is the drop in personal federal income taxes from a high of 70% to 28% (I think I said it went to 38.5%, but that is wrong, it actually was lowered to 28% in 1988, my mistake). Now, if someone's personal taxes were reduced by that amount, I think the fact that their OASDI rate went from 10.16% in 1980 to 12.12% in 1988 is probably a pretty good trade off. So yes, while I will conceed there were other taxes (I think a higher gas tax, for example) that went up, what I was referring to was the percentage of personal income that one paid in taxes went down. I stand by my statement.
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  6. rjwerth's Avatar
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    #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Yes. And just because one keeps repeating "big gov't got us into this mess" does not make it true. Facts are facts and the last 8 years prove there is an ABSOLUTE necessity for strong federal regulation of Corporate America.
    And those facts are what then? I'll tell you mine and then you can tell me yours.

    Many people blame the government controlled interest rates. I personally only give partial blame for that, but considering that rates are even lower now, I'm really not sure that was the issue.

    Other people suggest that the serious arm twisting by members of congress that more or less forced banks to issue loans to people they historically would not loan to. Banks and financial institution came up with some unfortunate ways of handling this request (demand), it is true, but prior to this edict from on high, the banks were pretty good about keeping their risks low. There is no denying this (you can, but you'd be wrong).

    So, there you go...reasons the government was at fault. What have you got?
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Truth is, it depends on what the voters do now in the final general votes. Will there be enough turn-out by "sane" individuals to push back against this extreme right movement.

    I can't tell at this point. It could be, this extreme-right movement has been a tempest within the right-wings teapot and the average voter will turn their thumb down to that, IF THEY TURN OUT.

    If the tea-party extreme-right freaks do get elected, it will only embolden the Republicans to continue their Just-Say-No strategy and keep our Country paralyzed.
    Okay, I don't know whether or not to agree or disagree with your statement. I agree with your conclusion, but disagree with your hypothesis or analogy of why we get there. If the tea party-extreme right get elected, Republican will continue their Just-say-no strategy, but they'll be shaken in their boots, because they know that they don't appeal to tea-partiers and when they try to fake it, they come off sounding phony. Thus, main stream Republicans realize their days and their power-base are dwindling.

    Thus, it is not that they are emboldened, it is extreme fear that will keep them toeing the party line and even that won't save them. The extreme right is sweeping thru the party w/o concern toward the end-game. The republican party is becoming more and more fractured.

    It's okay, the Dems have always been fractured and broken ranks. It will be interesting to see how the new extreme-right will behave after election (if any win the gen election). How long before they get sucked into the compromise and look the other way life of Washington. They already accept and side with big money. Let's see how honorable their promises are.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    And those facts are what then? I'll tell you mine and then you can tell me yours.

    Many people blame the government controlled interest rates. I personally only give partial blame for that, but considering that rates are even lower now, I'm really not sure that was the issue.

    Other people suggest that the serious arm twisting by members of congress that more or less forced banks to issue loans to people they historically would not loan to. Banks and financial institution came up with some unfortunate ways of handling this request (demand), it is true, but prior to this edict from on high, the banks were pretty good about keeping their risks low. There is no denying this (you can, but you'd be wrong).

    So, there you go...reasons the government was at fault. What have you got?
    I believe these quotes sum it up well,

    It was the branding of these securitized bundles as being AAA. It was luring people into mortgages they knew they couldn't afford. But the broker was out of the deal within five to six weeks; the bank was out of the deal in eight to 10. And the rating agency was out of it quickly, as soon as they put a label on it as being a highly reliable and conservative investment. And, of course, others who are looking at these things did not know what they were getting, being sold off into the marketplace globally. And obviously all of that [led to this] cascading effect, as these mortgages failed, and the markets, the capital markets seize up. ...

    Barney Frank
    and

    Unfortunately, I think it always takes a crisis to get change. In the late 1980s, we had a banking crisis. ... The commercial banks went into risky commercial real estate lending and took losses. The crisis generated support for regulatory reform, and we had the Basel capital requirements phased in, and these banks were required to hold more capital, and in fact they did raise their capital base. So there's a case where crisis leads to reform. Reform, at least for a while, sets you on the right track.

    But then, as happens throughout history, financial institutions [learn] how to game the system. So banks, instead of initiating and holding mortgages, which would require them to have capital against these mortgages, would initiate them and sell them. The securitization market had been growing, so here was a new type of loan. You could securitize mortgages.

    Also, along the way, there was a growing belief that everybody should have access to home ownership. That was politically appealing to both Republicans and Democrats. So there was an easing of standards, and these subprime loans were securitized. There were people who did ring warning bells about this, but again, when the economy is going well, it's difficult to get change.

    And I would add one more factor to the brew. Since 1984, the U.S. economy had performed reasonably well -- the two recessions, but both very mild, relative price stability. There wasn't the sense of urgency to bring change, even though some people did see that the regulatory system wasn't right.

    Mark Gertler Economist, New York University
    Last edited by daThomas; 09/19/2010 at 09:22 PM.
  9. rjwerth's Avatar
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    #89  
    So you are quoting Barney Frank-the very man who INSISTED that Fannie and Freddie be the means to giving loans to anyone who is breathing, but now feels they need to be abolished in favor of rental programs? Sorry if I don't put a lot of stock in what this guy says.

    You second quote is certainly more interesting as the only reference it gives to today's crisis involves pointing the finger at government...which is my point!
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    So you are quoting Barney Frank-the very man who INSISTED that Fannie and Freddie be the means to giving loans to anyone who is breathing, but now feels they need to be abolished in favor of rental programs? Sorry if I don't put a lot of stock in what this guy says.

    You second quote is certainly more interesting as the only reference it gives to today's crisis involves pointing the finger at government...which is my point!
    I believe it's referencing a LACK of regulatory action by gov't.
  11. Micael's Avatar
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    #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Yes. And just because one keeps repeating "big gov't got us into this mess" does not make it true. Facts are facts and the last 8 years prove there is an ABSOLUTE necessity for strong federal regulation of Corporate America.
    As if it was Corporate America that held a gun up to big gov'mts head and made them spend money like drunken sailors.

    Yeah, lets breath harder down businesses necks. That'll free up the jobs and improve things!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    As if it was Corporate America that held a gun up to big gov'mts head and made them spend money like drunken sailors.

    Yeah, lets breath harder down businesses necks. That'll free up the jobs and improve things!
    ya your right there micael, the big corps that made all those obscene profits, ie the banks, then as soon as things went a lil south they laid off hundreds of thousands. totally out of proportion to what was needed.. yup lets not regulate them at all.. let them have free reign, do what they want. WE all know and are living it, what that does, dont we..
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    ya your right there micael, the big corps that made all those obscene profits, ie the banks, then as soon as things went a lil south they laid off hundreds of thousands. totally out of proportion to what was needed.. yup lets not regulate them at all.. let them have free reign, do what they want. WE all know and are living it, what that does, dont we..
    If you don't know what happened, why pick on them?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    As if it was Corporate America that held a gun up to big gov'mts head and made them spend money like drunken sailors.

    Yeah, lets breath harder down businesses necks. That'll free up the jobs and improve things!
    Over the last 10 years, taxes have been lowered and regulations have been removed. Now, where are all of those "new jobs" that were supposed to come out of all that? Oh yeah, they are there... in India, Mexico, China, Taiwan and where ever else Corporate America decided to ship them off to for even more tax cuts and cheap labor....

    "TRICKLE DOWN", CONSERVATIVE STYLE ECONOMICS HAVE BEEN PROVEN TO NOT WORK!
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
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  15. Micael's Avatar
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    #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Over the last 10 years, taxes have been lowered and regulations have been removed. Now, where are all of those "new jobs" that were supposed to come out of all that? Oh yeah, they are there... in India, Mexico, China, Taiwan and where ever else Corporate America decided to ship them off to for even more tax cuts and cheap labor....

    "TRICKLE DOWN", CONSERVATIVE STYLE ECONOMICS HAVE BEEN PROVEN TO NOT WORK!
    They moved offshore because those countries invite and encourage business.

    Our country villanizes them and taxes them into oblivion.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #96  
    All my friends in mfg industries were working and doing fine during the Clinton years. All the jobs moved over seas during the Bush years.
  17. Micael's Avatar
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    #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    All my friends in mfg industries were working and doing fine during the Clinton years. All the jobs moved over seas during the Bush years.
    Actually, many jobs were leaving long before Clinton. It's been going on for at least 25 years now.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    They moved offshore because those countries invite and encourage business.
    Please tell me how a corp. moving its headquarters to Bermuda and moving it's manufacturing to China is going to "create jobs" here? America was the #1 market in the world. they did not move to boost sales. They moved to get cheap labor, exploit tax breaks and loopholes for importing INTO America and put more money into their own pockets while we get the shaft. Since Reagan has been in office, taxes have been going down and regulations have been disappearing, to "create jobs." Where are those jobs?

    America is not broke from over-spending, but rather, under-collecting and letting the large multinationals get away with not paying their fair share like you and I have to.

    Our country villanizes them and taxes them into oblivion.
    You do realize that most large corps. pay little, if any (some even get millions from our tax pool) in taxes due to loopholes and subsidies?

    How Multinational Corporations Dodge Taxes | Politeia | Big Think

    "For all the talk about how taxes are too high in the United States, American businesses are paying less now than they used to. In fact, many major corporations don't pay the U.S. government any taxes at all.

    The marginal tax rate for businesses is 35%. But the effective tax rate for large companies is much less in practice. Forbes magazine reports that General Electric, for example, won't owe any U.S. taxes for 2009, but will instead receive more than $1 billion dollars of tax benefits. That's in spite of the fact that GE generated more than $10 billion in income last year. GE usually doesn't pay much—in 2008 it paid just 5.3% of its income in taxes. ExxonMobil paid almost 50% of its $35 billion income in taxes. But according to its own Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) filing it doesn't owe any taxes in the United States, even though it's an American corporation and has its headquarters in Texas. Exxon says in spite of what it reported that when its taxes are finally figured it will owe a "substantial" amount—it won't say how much. But even if it does owe nothing at all it wouldn't be that out of line with other similar companies. Chevron, which is based in California, likewise paid almost all of its taxes to foreign governments. And in 2008 a Government Accountability Office (GAO) study found that between 1998 and 2005 two-thirds of companies operating in the U.S—including a quarter of the largest companies—didn't pay the U.S. government any net taxes at all..."
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  19. Micael's Avatar
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    #99  
    You know what? As big as government is getting, who can blame them for opting to dodge taxes by moving offshore? It's called staying competitive in a global market. You expect them to stay on US soil, get raped by the tax machine, compete with countries that do not have those taxes, and cheaper labor, and survive?

    Do the math. But I know you won't. You agenda is political and has nothing to do with jobs.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. #100  
    Enviromental Regulations.
    Labor laws.
    Occupational Saftey & Hazard.
    Minimum wage. etc.

    Taxes aside, how could they have ever competed?

    Why keep reducing it to just taxes?
    No matter what tax breaks you give them now, they're gone.

    Oh, and I forgot Labor Unions.

    It's kinda ironic, we set all these things up and priced the American worker out of a job.
    Last edited by berdinkerdickle; 09/20/2010 at 06:34 PM.
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