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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Actually views change all the time based off what's considered moral. I at one time may have considered something moral, but laws that condemn that behavior later causes me to rethink my morals.
    While most laws are in accordance with almost everyone's individual moral values, there are significant divergences of opinion in many areas, such as prolife/prochoice, fairness of taxation, environment, rationale for waging wars, torture, aid to children, the poor, other countries etc. Just because one side passed legislation in these controversial issues does not make it moral.

    You can be outnumbered, out yelled, belittled, put down as immoral, put in jail, waterboarded, etc. but even still that may not necessarily change your moral convictions if they are strongly held. I would argue that moral convictions can only change from within.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by dianehelen View Post
    The conundrum we face in the political landscape of today, is that the Republicans LIE and the Democrats are STUPID!

    The GOP is being held hostage by this right wing lunatic tea party fringe, that just makes stuff up, and their leaders are Beck and Palin, and the Democrats that could have pretty much done whatever the F they wanted for the last 2 years, had this misguided glaze that if they play nice, could win some votes.

    So instead of REAL health care reform, that yes, ok scary word oooo, would have could have SHOULD have BEEN a single payer system like every other civilized country has, accepted the watered down wus of a health care reform, that the right , plays the endless soundbites about it being Obamacare, and a govt take over which it is NOT. In fact its a more conservative plan than Nixon would have accepted. They LIE!

    The Democrats, instead of shouting their case, as well as the real accomplishments of this administraton, given what it was handed to start with, just sorta goes of off in a corner and hopes people will realize it. They are STUPID!

    Republicans bluster about cutting the deficit, and halting spending, how thats whats ruining our ecomomy, but heaven forbid, we end the HUGE tax cuts for the wealthy to maybe recoup some revenue, or even worse, talk about the zillions we have wasted in not only lives by MONEY on 2 really moronic wars. Yet they go on and on about less government, except the government THEY want. They LIE!

    The Democrats keep putting up the most inane, and NON charismatic people for elections, that do nothing for the party or its ideals. Is it really possible in a country of 300 million people, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are the BEST we can find? They are STUPID!

    It saddens me, that even the people who I agree with politically, are either just plain stupid, or are stupid, unelectable and/or have shady pasts.

    Im a fairly politically savvy person, but the current state of affairs just makes me wanna hurl!
    What an insane bunch of hoohee. The only thing I could agree with is that democrats are stupid.
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  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by dianehelen View Post
    The conundrum we face in the political landscape of today, is that the Republicans LIE and the Democrats are STUPID!

    The GOP is being held hostage by this right wing lunatic tea party fringe, that just makes stuff up, and their leaders are Beck and Palin, and the Democrats that could have pretty much done whatever the F they wanted for the last 2 years, had this misguided glaze that if they play nice, could win some votes.

    So instead of REAL health care reform, that yes, ok scary word oooo, would have could have SHOULD have BEEN a single payer system like every other civilized country has, accepted the watered down wus of a health care reform, that the right , plays the endless soundbites about it being Obamacare, and a govt take over which it is NOT. In fact its a more conservative plan than Nixon would have accepted. They LIE!

    The Democrats, instead of shouting their case, as well as the real accomplishments of this administraton, given what it was handed to start with, just sorta goes of off in a corner and hopes people will realize it. They are STUPID!

    Republicans bluster about cutting the deficit, and halting spending, how thats whats ruining our ecomomy, but heaven forbid, we end the HUGE tax cuts for the wealthy to maybe recoup some revenue, or even worse, talk about the zillions we have wasted in not only lives by MONEY on 2 really moronic wars. Yet they go on and on about less government, except the government THEY want. They LIE!

    The Democrats keep putting up the most inane, and NON charismatic people for elections, that do nothing for the party or its ideals. Is it really possible in a country of 300 million people, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are the BEST we can find? They are STUPID!

    It saddens me, that even the people who I agree with politically, are either just plain stupid, or are stupid, unelectable and/or have shady pasts.

    Im a fairly politically savvy person, but the current state of affairs just makes me wanna hurl!
    I was responding to some other posts and missed this post. Sorry not to respond earlier, but you bring up a lot of valid points. I share your frustrations that democrats are not able to march in lock step like republicans can. Look at how Karl Rove totally reversed his talking points from yesterday and is now supporting Christine O'Donnell. It's one of the most disciplined acts of party loyalty I've seen in a long time. As a person who calls her fellow democrats stupid, you are obviously too independent of a thinker to appreciate how Karl can say anything for the team. For better or for worse, the democratic party just has too many free thinkers like you and not enough team players like Karl.
  4. #64  
    Well I would have no problem BEING that team player, if in fact I felt better about MY team.

    I have NOT voted anything BUT Dem in over 20 years, and this year, sadly for the first time in FL I am voting for an Independent, none other than our former Republican, Gov. Charlie Crist. Why? Because he is the only one in the sorry bunch who is not a seedy character. Rubio? OMG, scary. Meeks? OMG,. very shady background.

    And you are correct, about Rove AKA Big Dough Head. and that whole bunch. Lock Step for SURE!

    I guess maybe part of the reason that us intelligent Dems do not march in that lock step, is because those of us left outside the "step" are still clinging on to that last shred of integrity about our stand on issues.

    and @clemgrad85 , spoken like a true Lock Stepper, NO facts, NO discussion of my facts and statements, just that same drone like name calling.. ooookk.. guess my point is proven
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    #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    You can call a particular law moral if you wish. But even if I follow the law out of fear of retribution, I can still dispute your opinion of its morality.
    Sure you can, and that sort of speaks to my point. The first litmus test for a good law is whether its moral. All the other tests about whether a law is practical or enforceable are secondary. Fortunately for those of us in the US, the Constitutionality test helps to weed out immoral laws.
  6. #66  
    this thread...

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  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Sure you can, and that sort of speaks to my point. The first litmus test for a good law is whether its moral. All the other tests about whether a law is practical or enforceable are secondary. Fortunately for those of us in the US, the Constitutionality test helps to weed out immoral laws.
    Constitutionality test? Thats your litmus test for morality? Slavery, the most immoral law in our nation's history persisted with the constitutional stamp of approval for generations (four score and 7 years) and the only way it got outlawed was not by the constitution but by war. No, morality is not created by a supermajority of states or self serving politicians, it does not follow a 5/4 decision by a bunch of politically biased supreme court judges. These bodies can pass laws and force people to comply, but when it comes down to it, whether a law is moral or not is a decision that each individual has to make for themselves.
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    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Constitutionality test? Thats your litmus test for morality? Slavery, the most immoral law in our nation's history persisted with the constitutional stamp of approval for generations (four score and 7 years) and the only way it got outlawed was not by the constitution but by war. No, morality is not created by a supermajority of states or self serving politicians, it does not follow a 5/4 decision by a bunch of politically biased supreme court judges. These bodies can pass laws and force people to comply, but when it comes down to it, whether a law is moral or not is a decision that each individual has to make for themselves.
    Note that I said "helps to weed out immoral laws", not that it makes sure every law is moral. Wouldn't you agree that the Constitution has protected people from an overreaching legislature? From laws that infringe upon the rights of the citizenry? Wouldn't you also agree that such laws are immoral? If so, I would hope you also agree that good laws are moral laws--laws which force people to behave rightly towards one another. Which was my main point all along.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaurav View Post
    this thread...

    Alright, who gave the keys back to the Republicans?
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by dianehelen View Post
    and @clemgrad85 , spoken like a true Lock Stepper, NO facts, NO discussion of my facts and statements, just that same drone like name calling.. ooookk.. guess my point is proven
    Funny....when Republicans shun other Republican views all we here about is how narrow minded the Republicans are and how open to other beliefs the democrats are. Then, when Republicans come together they are are labeled as marching in "lock step". Can't have it both way folks....but....I know you will try because all democrats do is attack, attack, attack.

    I listened to a democrat go on about how stupid Republican voters were for voting for O'Donnell, but funny, he didn't mention the stupid democrats who voted for Greene here in SC for Senate. Besides, the other candidate that O'Donnell was facing really wasn't a Republican. He voted for all the major bills recently like he was a democrat. We want change now, and that change is getting rid of these socialistic views that obama keeps trying to shove down our throats. I always get criticized in here about calling obama a socialist like I'm the only one who thinks it....well....more and more I smile when watching folks who know more than me (that is a ton of people, by the way, lol, I'll add that for davidra) call obama a socialist. A guy on CNBC yesterday, Bernie Marcus (co-founder of Home Depot, by the way), was completely nailing obama on all of obama's socialist views and how it was going to sink this country if he and the liberals continue to have their way.....and Marcus is no nut job. We need change alright, and hopefully....darn it.....hopefully.....change is a coming! We are getting dangerously close to the day when more people will be getting benefits than we have paying taxes, and when that happens, Katie bar the door, we won't be able to change then.
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  11. #71  
    We are getting dangerously close to the day when more people will be getting benefits than we have paying taxes, and when that happens, Katie bar the door, we won't be able to change then.
    Possibly true , but that will be because of the strong hold that people and corporatist policies like your CEO of Home Depot, continue to profit and beneift by keeping and pushing the once dynamic work force of the middle class, lower and lower into the poverty realm thru ways and means that trick them by lying to them, and earning unrestrained billions for themselves. And you people talk about Obama and all the taxes he has raised? Do you know what the top tax rate was, under Eisenhower, a REPUBLICAN? It was 91% for the top earners of this country at the time. Reagan another Republican, signed into law over a dozen tax INCREASES, and many were in the middle OF a recession. This administration has, and continues for fight hard to LOWER taxes of most of the American work force (whats left of it). But the fox noise propaganda machine keeps spewing the soundbites about how Obama raised taxes? They just LIE!

    And yes, as I started off my thoughts the Dems ARE stupid, they have done many stupid things, but certainly do not have a monopoly on attacking.

    and yes, as I started off, Reps LIE. They talk and talk and talk about less government, but in truth they ONLY really want less government for the things on their agenda. They WANT government interference in things like women being in control of their bodies, gay rights, medicare, I could go on, but it just makes me wanna drink heavily and forget, and its only 7:30 in the morning.
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  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by dianehelen View Post
    Possibly true , but that will be because of the strong hold that people and corporatist policies like your CEO of Home Depot, continue to profit and beneift by keeping and pushing the once dynamic work force of the middle class, lower and lower into the poverty realm thru ways and means that trick them by lying to them, and earning unrestrained billions for themselves. And you people talk about Obama and all the taxes he has raised? Do you know what the top tax rate was, under Eisenhower, a REPUBLICAN? It was 91% for the top earners of this country at the time. Reagan another Republican, signed into law over a dozen tax INCREASES, and many were in the middle OF a recession. This administration has, and continues for fight hard to LOWER taxes of most of the American work force (whats left of it). But the fox noise propaganda machine keeps spewing the soundbites about how Obama raised taxes? They just LIE!

    And yes, as I started off my thoughts the Dems ARE stupid, they have done many stupid things, but certainly do not have a monopoly on attacking.

    and yes, as I started off, Reps LIE. They talk and talk and talk about less government, but in truth they ONLY really want less government for the things on their agenda. They WANT government interference in things like women being in control of their bodies, gay rights, medicare, I could go on, but it just makes me wanna drink heavily and forget, and its only 7:30 in the morning.
    You know....this whole BS that Reagan raised taxes is just BS. Go look at the history of Federal Income Taxes. Yes, it took him a couple of years to start reducing taxes, but when he became President the top tax bracket was 70%....geez....that is hard to believe....but it was. When he became Prez, the democrats controlled Congress so yes, it took until 1982 for the top rate to get lowered to 50%....but still too high because the democrats still controlled the Congress. Reagan did finally get the top rate down to 38.5% in 1987. He couldn't go in there and wave a magic wand and get it done. So, this is just BS about him raising taxes.....the facts prove it. As for Eisenhower....I wan't making money then so I'll pass on commenting there, but he wouldn't make it long these days if he was a true believer in 91% tax rates, LOL. Oh....and I love how you criticize someone who risked their own capital to start a store and have it succeed. My God, he should be burned at the stake for making a business successful. The nerve of Bernie Marcus for living the American dream....shame on him! He should do it the way democrats do it these days, by getting into politics and not following the same rules that you and I have to follow....that is apparently the American dream these days.

    Only democrats would want to raise taxes on anyone right now....good grief. We need EVERYONE spending as much money as possible and we need the wealthy to be able to provide jobs....ummm....that is provide jobs in the private sector, not pay taxes to make more government jobs.

    Oh, and I was laughing this morning when swimming over your comment about "Intelligent dems"....LOL, isn't that what you intelligent people call an "oxymoron"?
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  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Note that I said "helps to weed out immoral laws", not that it makes sure every law is moral. Wouldn't you agree that the Constitution has protected people from an overreaching legislature? From laws that infringe upon the rights of the citizenry?
    Our Constitutional form of government is indeed a great system, as good or better than any other system of government out there (IMO). Here we are talking freely with each other about our political views, while many countries still oppress people for such things. This is something we should never take for granted, and its worth fighting to protect, which was my motivation for three years enlisted active duty in the US 7th Infantry Division when I was younger, and for the last 15 years serving as a physician at a VA medical center. I love my country, make no bones about it.

    But any student of history knows the US Constitution can also be turned on its head and diverted away from the goal of 'forcing people to behave rightly towards one another'. I already mentioned how the Constitution couldn't stop slavery (it took the civil war to do that), the Constitution also didn't stop a century of post civil war black oppression, it didn't stop women from being non-voting second class citizens for nearly a century and a half, and the Constitution did nothing to stop the wide scale genocide of our native american population.

    I think it speaks for the eventual success of our form of government, that we were finally able to get over these things. But the fact that they persisted on such a grand scale for so long shows how one group's concept of 'morality' can be so devastating to another group of people for so many years.

    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Wouldn't you also agree that such laws are immoral? If so, I would hope you also agree that good laws are moral laws--laws which force people to behave rightly towards one another. Which was my main point all along.
    Agreeing about the most self-evident truths in the Constitution is one thing. But implementing them in a practical sense in current areas such as prolife/prochoice, civil rights, freedom of (all) religion, gay rights, social security, fairness of taxation, immigration, the environment, our dealings with other countries, the rationale for waging wars, the use of torture, helping children and the needy, etc - on these things and others, your and my concept of what is moral or just is likely quite different.

    Surely you might say, there are some universal moral values which we all agree upon which can undeniably underly the laws of our nation. Lets take the most basic issue murder. Yes we all agree killing people is immoral. But what about capital punishment, what about preemptive war, is a four cell embryo a human, who should live or die in the face of limited health resources?

    So when you speak in generalities about good laws, moral laws, I really am at a loss to know what you mean, for example what you call moral, I may call immoral. Thats because, while law is a universally implemented process, morality is not universal, its a personal conviction. Thats why I agree with Dr. King when he said morality is not something that can be foisted onto someone else through law, morality only can change from within.
  14. #74  
    yaaawwwwwwwwn
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by switchedgear View Post
    yaaawwwwwwwwn
    Best post in this thread!
    Sent from my favorite gadget!
  16. #76  
    Verwon and switchedgear, thanks for the feedback, (sometimes I bore myself too).
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Verwon and switchedgear, thanks for the feedback, (sometimes I bore myself too).
    hmmmm our names have been posted together in a few threads recently...... Partners in crime maybe?
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by switchedgear View Post
    hmmmm our names have been posted together in a few threads recently...... Partners in crime maybe?
    Definitely possibly!
    Sent from my favorite gadget!
  19. #79  
    *snickers*
  20. #80  
    Sent from my favorite gadget!
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