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  1. #521  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    So....are you saying that taxing everyone in order to provide a service that may only be needed by some, and will never be needed by others is NOT socialism?
    I will say that it really depends on how that 'tax' is assessed and what that service is.
    I'm sure glad my fire department isn't a bunch of raging socialists.
    Personally, I'm thankful that my fire department are a bunch of raging communists.
    Of course, the same taxation applied to health care somehow is socialist....right?
    If that taxation were applied in the same manner as my fire department taxation is applied, it would be far more communist than socialist, but the knowledge and skills required for the profession is a bit different and more varied.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #522  
    Well, it's nice to see you parsing again. I guarantee you don't want me putting out your fires. Everybody has their skills....
  3. rjwerth's Avatar
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    #523  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    You said it was cruel but then you ended with this, "That about sums up what people expect from government. They want all the services-so long as someone else is paying for it."

    People tend to end with the points they want to emphasize and I'm betting that implied accusation is what he got upset about with your statement. After all, the story said he was willing to pay whatever it would cost to have them put out the fire.
    Yes, indeed, that is the point I wanted to emphasize. Though, I should have been more precise by saying that "That about sums up what LIBERAL people..." When you look at the polls for social programs, who wants them the most? The people who contribute the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    This actually brings up part of the issue with taxes and insurance and why it's sometimes better to simply collect these public service fees through taxes rather than trying to collect the taxes through some kind of "subscription" fee.
    And this is one of the great divides between conservatives and liberals. This guy proves the point of the liberals that there are too many people out there that just don't know what is good for them. The liberal solution: force them to do the right thing (unless of course it involves unborn children...then you can do whatever you want). The conservative stance is that people are smart enough to know what they need and don't need, and if they aren't, there is a lesson that will be learned. This guy knew exactly what he was doing. His biggest downfall was that he over-estimated the compassion of the system. He just assumed someone would come and save him even though he made a clear choice to not buy into the system.

    No, the system wasn't very compassionate and yes, there are probably 5 better ways this situation could have been handled. But, I'll bet you a dozen donuts that the very next week, there was a flood of $75 checks to the FD in that county.
  4. #524  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Well, it's nice to see you parsing again.
    I've tried to stay out of this one since I don't really have a vested interest in the main topic.
    I guarantee you don't want me putting out your fires.
    Perhaps not, but I doubt that ability has anything to do with it.
    Everybody has their skills....
    Sure, but I'm still not sure how the comparison of firefighting to health care works out. Something like 75% of the firefighters in the country are volunteers. Their equipment is owned by the taxing district which funds itself. The funds generated are in most cases based upon property taxes, so the people covered are paying for it (either directly or indirectly through rent). Unless communities are going to start owning the hospitals and doctors and nurses are going to start volunteering their services, it's hard to draw a comparison to the overwhelming majority of fire fighters.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. #525  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    I'll bet you a dozen donuts that the very next week, there was a flood of $75 checks to the FD in that county.
    Meh...most of the people in the county who wanted the service were probably already paying it. I suspect this guy was probably a rare case. I can tell you that if the FD let this guy's house burn to the ground, that the $75 wasn't the reason. There is more to this story. Even paid firefighters don't usually do it for the money.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. #526  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    And this is one of the great divides between conservatives and liberals. This guy proves the point of the liberals that there are too many people out there that just don't know what is good for them. The liberal solution: force them to do the right thing (unless of course it involves unborn children...then you can do whatever you want). The conservative stance is that people are smart enough to know what they need and don't need, and if they aren't, there is a lesson that will be learned. This guy knew exactly what he was doing. His biggest downfall was that he over-estimated the compassion of the system. He just assumed someone would come and save him even though he made a clear choice to not buy into the system.

    No, the system wasn't very compassionate and yes, there are probably 5 better ways this situation could have been handled. But, I'll bet you a dozen donuts that the very next week, there was a flood of $75 checks to the FD in that county.
    Your point of view has merit in this case. However that same point of view doesn't hold merit in the case of something like health insurance were the primary problem isn't people not being responsable (there are some of those) but is in the people controlling the service and their unethical practices.
  7. #527  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Your point of view has merit in this case. However that same point of view doesn't hold merit in the case of something like health insurance were the primary problem isn't people not being responsable (there are some of those) but is in the people controlling the service and their unethical practices.
    Do you really think it's necessary to talk that way about doctors and hospitals?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  8. #528  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Do you really think it's necessary to talk that way about doctors and hospitals?
    Now if I was talking about doctors and hospitals I would have said "health care" not "health insurance".
  9. #529  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Now if I was talking about doctors and hospitals I would have said "health care" not "health insurance".
    So, doctors and hospitals have no control over the service they offer? Isn't it about time that we start talking about this sort of thing _completely_ honestly and not with bias towards either side of the false dichotomy?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  10. #530  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    So, doctors and hospitals have no control over the service they offer? Isn't it about time that we start talking about this sort of thing _completely_ honestly and not with bias towards either side of the false dichotomy?
    Some do, some don't. I'm sure you're aware that doctors don't get to charge whatever they want, and in some cases are forced to charge more than they would like to. Between employed and salaried doctors and reimbursement caps, there is more control than you might think. Of course,the overhead amount that goes to insurance companies is not insignificant and adds nothing to the care provided. In spite of that, there should be tighter cost controls in some situations, and in fact Medicare has provided that by cutting back on the excessive charges for procedures like cataract procedures, which were absurd for many years.

    Hospitals are a different situation....for profit vs non-profit actually makes a difference.
  11. #531  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Some do, some don't.
    What binds the ones that don't?
    I'm sure you're aware that doctors don't get to charge whatever they want, and in some cases are forced to charge more than they would like to.
    Who forces them?
    Between employed and salaried doctors and reimbursement caps, there is more control than you might think.
    Do you mean more or less?
    Of course,the overhead amount that goes to insurance companies is not insignificant and adds nothing to the care provided.
    We are mostly in agreement there. However, I'm of the opinion that insurance is not what most health coverage companies provide these days.
    Hospitals are a different situation....for profit vs non-profit actually makes a difference.
    From a bookkeeping standpoint, surely. Keep in mind, I'm trying to discuss this within the context that was brought up with comparing it to the firefighting example.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12. Micael's Avatar
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    #532  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    So, doctors and hospitals have no control over the service they offer? Isn't it about time that we start talking about this sort of thing _completely_ honestly and not with bias towards either side of the false dichotomy?
    Here here. Unfortunately it's political now. Honesty on both sides is pretty much out the window.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. #533  
    Okay....the democrats are now officially desperate as they try and scrounge up anything they can against the Republicans, forget the issues they can't hide from. This whole issue about the US Chamber of Commerce using foreign money to put out ads just reeks of desperation. They accuse the Chamber of showing where their money has come from (watch the video, even a liberal talk show challenges them on this), and yet, during the 2008 Presidential election millions come into obama's website and it can't be tracked! Will they divulge where this money came from? What a bunch of hypocrites. And when Axelrod is challenged if they have proof of this foreign money, his response is "well do you have proof that it isn't?" Good grief.....they are really getting desperate. Just throw an accusation out there with no proof and then make groups defend themselves.

    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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  14. #534  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Okay....the democrats are now officially desperate as they try and scrounge up anything they can against the Republicans, forget the issues they can't hide from. This whole issue about the US Chamber of Commerce using foreign money to put out ads just reeks of desperation. They accuse the Chamber of showing where their money has come from (watch the video, even a liberal talk show challenges them on this), and yet, during the 2008 Presidential election millions come into obama's website and it can't be tracked! Will they divulge where this money came from? What a bunch of hypocrites. And when Axelrod is challenged if they have proof of this foreign money, his response is "well do you have proof that it isn't?" Good grief.....they are really getting desperate. Just throw an accusation out there with no proof and then make groups defend themselves.

    Yea, the Dems are really bad at playing the "throw stuff out there without proof and make it stick game". They should really just go on facts instead of trying to reverse engineer the Republican playbook. But then again I guess the problem is also with the general public and the media since shouting a lie draws more positive attention than speaking the truth.
  15. Micael's Avatar
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    #535  
    Love this new ad by .
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #536  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Love this new ad by .
    I swear obama makes me want to throw up. He is a really horrible President, but I think he might have a job as a campaigner. Good ad.....he has done nothing but make this country more divided and put us further in debt. So much for him bringing us all together. We must....MUST.....get gridlock back in our government!
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
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