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  1. JDAustin's Avatar
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    #421  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Thus the problem still remains; when, if ever, are the requests of the people set as the priority, and not the requests of the primary funders (corporate lobbyists, unions, wealthy special interests)?
    Now who are the people? Aren't corporations owned by people? Aren't unions made up of people? Aren't wealthy special interests people with a particular interest?

    Lets look at politics at a local level (which is essentially high school football to state level college ball to national level being the NFL). The rules are all basically the same.

    What if I want a speed bump placed in front of my house (true in fact). To get this request done, I'd have to go through my city councilman. Now, am I a special interest or one of the people? The common sense answer is I'm one of the people. Now what about when my neighbors decide to join me and we form a group to lobby the city for some speed bumps. Again, are we a special interest or the people? Now it turns out that city councilman is very sympathetic to our views and is working hard to get the speed bumps put in. But he's up for re-election and its in our neighborhood group to see him re-elected so we all chip in some cash and the group makes campaign contribution. From the outside we look and we are acting like a special interest. How then are we different then other special interests?
  2. JDAustin's Avatar
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    #422  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    well we up here in the great white north dont call em repubs and dems,, we call em conservatives, and liberals, with the odd ndper and a few hangers on.
    its much the same here, when we elect a prime minister, we elect his party. Right now, we have a minority government. Which means at any time that the opposition feels strongly enough, they can vote against the govt, creating a Non-Confidence issue. Which essentially brings down the govt.

    Right now the liberals and the ndp are more than a little afraid of doing that, people here are tired of the whole political mess, and it may end up in a majority govt for the conservatives.

    now my own personal feelings on our prime minister is not fit to print. however he is the leader of my country, and as long as he is in charge, i will do as he asks, grudgingly but do it i will.
    to be frank,,, ok ok I’m not frank, lol, to be honest i think a minority govt works pretty well.. stuff gets done for everyone, not just special interest (s) .. but that is just me..
    This is the difference between the US and most other countries out there. Especially those with parliamentary systems. Your Prime Minister is a member of the legislature along with the rest of his cabinet. Your branches of government are therefore not separate and co-equal as your executive branch is a subset of your legislative branch. The dynamics of your government are therefore much different then those in the States. Your minority government is the same as our split gov; that being when one party controls the house/senate and the other controls the President. Stuff that needs to get passed, gets passed.
  3. #423  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    hoe wee crap. have we just agreed on something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Not too hard to believe. I am not the hardcore socialist you like to think I am...
  4. #424  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    Micael and I actually used to live together in the 60's...

    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  5. #425  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    I'll add in some term limits and barring them from becoming lobbyists after they have served their terms...
    YES....term limits....THANK YOU....and can we throw out this ridiculous tax system we have and have the FAIR TAX? Come on folks....read about it! Americans For Fair Taxation: Americans For Fair Taxation Contrary to what some people think, it isn't a tax designed to decrease one's current tax situation, but rather include everyone in the tax system. Imagine all the tax missed by income received under the table or through illegal means? When they go to spend that money....bingo bango....tax is paid. In fact, for those lower income folks that pay no to little federal income tax now, that would still be the case, but, they also won't pay any payroll tax! So, in their case, 100% of their paycheck will come to them (unless, of course, they have state tax deducted). For wealthier folks, the advantage is they don't have to spend money on ways to avoid taxes because....well....you can't avoid paying the taxes when they spend money. I realize it is unlikely to ever have a chance, but dang, sure would make life a bit more simple. By the way, at the Fair Tax website, there is a calculator to determine how this tax system would affect your situation.....try it....you might be surprised.
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  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #426  
    I don't agree with everything that Morris says, but I think he has an interesting perspective on things, and occassionally makes some very interesting points:

    Obliterating a generation
    By **** Morris - 09/28/10 06:57 PM ET

    Thanks to the leadership of President Obama, Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Reid, the Democratic Party is facing the biggest defeat in midterm elections in the past 110 years, perhaps surpassing the modern record of a 74-seat gain set in 1922. They will also lose control of the Senate.

    Republicans are now leading in 54 Democratic House districts. In 19 more, the incumbent congressman is under 50 percent and his GOP challenger is within five points. That makes 73 seats where victory is within easy grasp for the Republican Party. The only reason the list is not longer is that there are 160 Democratic House districts that were considered so strongly blue that there is no recent polling available.

    There is no Democratic message. President Obama is heralding education — an issue never mentioned on the campaign trail. Secretary of State Clinton is trying to restart the peace talks in the Middle East. Attorney General Holder is re-evaluating online national-security taps. And a hundred Democrats are scrambling about on their own trying to get reelected!

    The Democratic campaigns they are waging are formulaic. They make no attempt to defend the administration, but run away from it where possible. They never mention the words stimulus, healthcare reform, card-check, GM takeover or cap-and-trade.

    Instead, they are running almost exclusively negative ads. They base their campaigns on tax liens, failed marriages, DWIs and the like. Where there is a paucity of dirt, they resort to three prefab negatives: that their opponent favors a 23 percent national sales tax, that he wants to privatize Social Security and that he is shipping jobs overseas.

    The Republican answers are simple. Republicans want a 23 percent value-added tax (VAT) only as part of eliminating the income tax. Some Republicans do back letting people under 55 divert one-third of their FICA taxes to approved investment alternatives, and most voters agree with them. But, on the campaign trail, simply saying — accurately — that “I oppose any change at all in Social Security for our seniors” takes care of it. And Republicans rebut the jobs overseas charge by citing how the incumbent backed cash-for-clunkers, where 40 percent of the cars bought were foreign; the TARP bailout, which paid billions to overseas banks; and the GM bailout, where two-thirds of the jobs were overseas.

    It is a pathetic defense, easily pierced and defeated.

    Now the field of battle will increasingly shift. The marginal Democrats — the freshmen and sophomores — are mostly gone. The seats of Southern conservative Democrats largely already lost. Now the combat shifts to the previously safe seats occupied by many in the House leadership, including, perhaps, the seats of Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (Md.) and Financial Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank (Mass.).

    This new attack will force the Democrats to spend their resources defending their base and make it even easier to pick off marginal members. And while Republican resources shift to the previously solidly Democratic districts, eager donors anxious to develop relationships with the new Republican majority will fill their shoes.

    In the Senate, Republicans lead in eight Democratic seats: North Dakota, Indiana, Arkansas, Colorado, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, West Virginia and Illinois. In Nevada, the ninth, Harry Reid has been stuck at 44 percent of the vote since Aug. 1, when his Social Security/Medicare attack was rebutted. He is dead in the water. His negatives flood the airwaves but are not working, and the ads run by Karl Rove’s American Crossroads have him pinned down.

    For the 10th seat, the GOP has five options: New York, where Joe DioGuardi is only one point behind Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand in the latest published poll; California, where Sen. Barbara Boxer is stubbornly below 50; Washington state, where the lead has seesawed back and forth between Dino Rossi and Sen. Patty Murray; Connecticut, where Linda McMahon has closed to 50-45; and Delaware, where Christine O’Donnell may yet come back and has closed the gap to nine points.

    And where is Obama while all this is happening? Proposing new initiatives on education!

    ~~~
    Morris, a former adviser to Sen. Trent Lott (R-Miss.) and President Bill Clinton, is the author of Outrage, Fleeced and Catastrophe. To get all of his and Eileen McGann’s columns for free by e-mail or to order a signed copy of their latest book, 2010: Take Back America — A Battle Plan, go to dickmorris.com. In August, Morris became a strategist for the League of American Voters, which is running ads opposing the president’s healthcare reforms.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #427  
    I've read about the FairTax and in theory it sounds like a good idea but based on independent analysis it would probably need some tweaking to truly do what they say it would for individuals. It would be a great alternative to the personal tax system but not to the business side of the tax system.
  8. #428  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So if we came out with a 3 party system, would that work?
    Yes! One on Friday night, one on Saturday night . . . .

  9. #429  
    Quote Originally Posted by JDAustin View Post
    This is the difference between the US and most other countries out there. Especially those with parliamentary systems. Your Prime Minister is a member of the legislature along with the rest of his cabinet. Your branches of government are therefore not separate and co-equal as your executive branch is a subset of your legislative branch. The dynamics of your government are therefore much different then those in the States. Your minority government is the same as our split gov; that being when one party controls the house/senate and the other controls the President. Stuff that needs to get passed, gets passed.
    Good post(s).

    During the Bush years, I heard an interesting argument that a monarchy plus a Parliament is good because the monarchy embodies the country on a level above government per se, so people within government could criticize one another and be criticized by the people vociferously without the question of "patriotism" tainting the arguments. I believe the idea was that, instead of the personal, polarizing hatred of an individual like our President by those who disagree, on an emotional level the President would be seen mostly as a government functionary and not "America" itself.

    I ain't no monarchist (!), but I found that thinking interesting.
  10. #430  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    YES....term limits....THANK YOU....and can we throw out this ridiculous tax system we have and have the FAIR TAX? Come on folks....read about it! Americans For Fair Taxation: Americans For Fair Taxation Contrary to what some people think, it isn't a tax designed to decrease one's current tax situation, but rather include everyone in the tax system. Imagine all the tax missed by income received under the table or through illegal means? When they go to spend that money....bingo bango....tax is paid. In fact, for those lower income folks that pay no to little federal income tax now, that would still be the case, but, they also won't pay any payroll tax! So, in their case, 100% of their paycheck will come to them (unless, of course, they have state tax deducted). For wealthier folks, the advantage is they don't have to spend money on ways to avoid taxes because....well....you can't avoid paying the taxes when they spend money. I realize it is unlikely to ever have a chance, but dang, sure would make life a bit more simple. By the way, at the Fair Tax website, there is a calculator to determine how this tax system would affect your situation.....try it....you might be surprised.
    The Fair Tax is nothing but an excuse to exclude the wealthiest Americans from paying their appropriate share of the tax burden. I realize you may think that nobody should pay taxes based on how much they make, but I think that's just plain wrong. People who make millions of dollars should pay at baseline more than people who make very little. The funny thing is that you really think this will be easier, that there wouldn't be exclusions and complexities that would make it just as complicated as what we have. And of course, you would put lots of people out of work, right? Fat chance. The Fair Tax is a fringe element fantasy that would end up shifting more of the tax burden to the middle class and protecting the wealthy, just like most right-wing approaches to taxation. Save your passion for something that might actually happen....like tax cuts for 98% of the country that conservatives are blocking.
  11. #431  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The Fair Tax is nothing but an excuse to exclude the wealthiest Americans from paying their appropriate share of the tax burden. I realize you may think that nobody should pay taxes based on how much they make, but I think that's just plain wrong. People who make millions of dollars should pay at baseline more than people who make very little. The funny thing is that you really think this will be easier, that there wouldn't be exclusions and complexities that would make it just as complicated as what we have. And of course, you would put lots of people out of work, right? Fat chance. The Fair Tax is a fringe element fantasy that would end up shifting more of the tax burden to the middle class and protecting the wealthy, just like most right-wing approaches to taxation. Save your passion for something that might actually happen....like tax cuts for 98% of the country that conservatives are blocking.
    I think you're wrong.....the wealthy would pay 23% tax on the things that wealthy people buy. Remember....this is 23% tax on virtually everything! If they buy a $200,000 boat....they have to pay $46,000 in taxes. If they buy the nice $80,000 car.....boom.....$18,400 in taxes. It they buy a $3000 TV...POW...$690 in taxes. If they buy that $400 pair of shoes....ZAP....$159 in taxes. Now, since corporations will not be paying taxes, the theory is they will be albe to lower the cost of products. Example.....if they are making $150 profit on a $1000 widget after taxes....then how much can they sell that widget for if they have no taxes? Maybe $850? I'm not sure the exact corporate tax savings there for that widget, but if a corporation makes the same profit margin as before, they can clearly do that. You say corporations won't do that, they'll just make more profit? Well, since that $1000 widget would now cost $1,230, all it will take is one company to figure out they can lower the price of their widget, make the same profit as before per widget, and get more sales by undercutting the other widget makers. Guess what? The other widget makers will follow. If you READ THE BOOK, you'll see that the family making $40,000 will end up netting out to zero because of the rebate check they will get each month that will cover their 23% tax on products. Remember....they will TAKE HOME $40,000 because no payroll tax (again, not counting current state tax). For these people, they actually end up with MORE MONEY in their pocket. I know you don't like this idea because it is from the right, but if you'd open your mind, read the book, you might think differently of it. It isn't a long book....why....I'll bet an educated man like you could read it in one weekend! But get the facts on it, not what you hear from other liberals. Read the book.
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  12. #432  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    I've read about the FairTax and in theory it sounds like a good idea but based on independent analysis it would probably need some tweaking to truly do what they say it would for individuals. It would be a great alternative to the personal tax system but not to the business side of the tax system.
    So you've read the book! Good job! Curious, why don't you like the business side of the Fair Tax?
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  13. #433  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I think you're wrong.....the wealthy would pay 23% tax on the things that wealthy people buy. Remember....this is 23% tax on virtually everything! If they buy a $200,000 boat....they have to pay $46,000 in taxes. If they buy the nice $80,000 car.....boom.....$18,400 in taxes. It they buy a $3000 TV...POW...$690 in taxes. If they buy that $400 pair of shoes....ZAP....$159 in taxes. Now, since corporations will not be paying taxes, the theory is they will be albe to lower the cost of products. Example.....if they are making $150 profit on a $1000 widget after taxes....then how much can they sell that widget for if they have no taxes? Maybe $850? I'm not sure the exact corporate tax savings there for that widget, but if a corporation makes the same profit margin as before, they can clearly do that. You say corporations won't do that, they'll just make more profit? Well, since that $1000 widget would now cost $1,230, all it will take is one company to figure out they can lower the price of their widget, make the same profit as before per widget, and get more sales by undercutting the other widget makers. Guess what? The other widget makers will follow. If you READ THE BOOK, you'll see that the family making $40,000 will end up netting out to zero because of the rebate check they will get each month that will cover their 23% tax on products. Remember....they will TAKE HOME $40,000 because no payroll tax (again, not counting current state tax). For these people, they actually end up with MORE MONEY in their pocket. I know you don't like this idea because it is from the right, but if you'd open your mind, read the book, you might think differently of it. It isn't a long book....why....I'll bet an educated man like you could read it in one weekend! But get the facts on it, not what you hear from other liberals. Read the book.
    What on earth makes you think that people who don't have a lot of money won't be inhibited from buying by a 23% sales tax (or likely more)? The rich can afford it. The real point is that the success of this freakish idea is based on theoreticals, with the primary fantasy being that corporations will lower their costs and pass up the extra profits they would make by cutting them to compete. You have no earthly idea that that will actually happen. My suspicion is that it might happen in some industries (like autos) but would not happen in most where competition is much less direct. This is all theory. There are no successful examples of this anywhere to study. It has the same amount of value as other theoretical conservative theories that have never been shown to work....like tax cuts for the wealthy (trickle-down economics) or tort reform. They sound good but have no basis in fact. And before you even think about comparing health care, we have several great examples of very successful government-run health care. Any way you cut it, the rich come out on top with the implementation of the flat tax, and everyone knows it.
  14. #434  
    I'd rather not "trust" bank of america or toyota or apple or you that this fair tax will work. I'd rather see taxes cut for those making 250K or less a year. You want a government that has trouble processing 1 refund check a year, now responsible for 12? NO THANK YOU.
  15. #435  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I think you're wrong.....the wealthy would pay 23% tax on the things that wealthy people buy. Remember....this is 23% tax on virtually everything! If they buy a $200,000 boat....they have to pay $46,000 in taxes. If they buy the nice $80,000 car.....boom.....$18,400 in taxes. It they buy a $3000 TV...POW...$690 in taxes. If they buy that $400 pair of shoes....ZAP....$159 in taxes. Now, since corporations will not be paying taxes, the theory is they will be albe to lower the cost of products. Example.....if they are making $150 profit on a $1000 widget after taxes....then how much can they sell that widget for if they have no taxes? Maybe $850? I'm not sure the exact corporate tax savings there for that widget, but if a corporation makes the same profit margin as before, they can clearly do that. You say corporations won't do that, they'll just make more profit? Well, since that $1000 widget would now cost $1,230, all it will take is one company to figure out they can lower the price of their widget, make the same profit as before per widget, and get more sales by undercutting the other widget makers. Guess what? The other widget makers will follow. If you READ THE BOOK, you'll see that the family making $40,000 will end up netting out to zero because of the rebate check they will get each month that will cover their 23% tax on products. Remember....they will TAKE HOME $40,000 because no payroll tax (again, not counting current state tax). For these people, they actually end up with MORE MONEY in their pocket. I know you don't like this idea because it is from the right, but if you'd open your mind, read the book, you might think differently of it. It isn't a long book....why....I'll bet an educated man like you could read it in one weekend! But get the facts on it, not what you hear from other liberals. Read the book.
    well the fair tax thing sounds good on paper, i would point to a few little things,
    1) the rich would just buy off shore, they can afford to, so no tax.
    2) costs to the corps would go down, thus leading to lower prices for all.

    well the problem with that is summed up with the comparison of off shoring, lower wages, lower costs, little no taxes, still the same damn high prices.
    this is evident in the auto industry, electronics, etc etc.. Sorry I do not believe for one damn minute that prices will drop because of fair tax.
    If I was rich, and had to pay an additional 20 k on an item, i would find any damn way I could to save that money. I am sure, most corps would set up just off shore, to sell to the rich. Is it worth a one day boat ride from say the dominican with a new boat to save 46 k.. damn straight it is.
    As I said, great idea, but people are people, and will do damn near anything to save a buck, thats how they got rich in the first place..
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  16. #436  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I think you're wrong.....the wealthy would pay 23% tax on the things that wealthy people buy. Remember....this is 23% tax on virtually everything! If they buy a $200,000 boat....they have to pay $46,000 in taxes. If they buy the nice $80,000 car.....boom.....$18,400 in taxes. It they buy a $3000 TV...POW...$690 in taxes. If they buy that $400 pair of shoes....ZAP....$159 in taxes. Now, since corporations will not be paying taxes, the theory is they will be albe to lower the cost of products. Example.....if they are making $150 profit on a $1000 widget after taxes....then how much can they sell that widget for if they have no taxes? Maybe $850? I'm not sure the exact corporate tax savings there for that widget, but if a corporation makes the same profit margin as before, they can clearly do that. You say corporations won't do that, they'll just make more profit? Well, since that $1000 widget would now cost $1,230, all it will take is one company to figure out they can lower the price of their widget, make the same profit as before per widget, and get more sales by undercutting the other widget makers. Guess what? The other widget makers will follow. If you READ THE BOOK, you'll see that the family making $40,000 will end up netting out to zero because of the rebate check they will get each month that will cover their 23% tax on products. Remember....they will TAKE HOME $40,000 because no payroll tax (again, not counting current state tax). For these people, they actually end up with MORE MONEY in their pocket. I know you don't like this idea because it is from the right, but if you'd open your mind, read the book, you might think differently of it. It isn't a long book....why....I'll bet an educated man like you could read it in one weekend! But get the facts on it, not what you hear from other liberals. Read the book.
    The only thing that would come of this is that the rich will buy offshore and large corps will be raking in more profit. They are moving jobs offshore left and right for cheaper labor and tax havens now and are the prices going down for us consumers? Nope! This fantasy that they will pass the savings on to you is just that, a fantasy...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  17. #437  
    Several comments revolved around the same issue.....the mean wealthy people buying products "offshore" to avoid the 23% sales tax. You accuse me of making an assumption, but then, you make an assumption as well. I made the assumption (well, not me really, the designers of the plan actually) that if a $1000 widget was increased to $1230 (because of the 23% tax) the businesses would decrease the cost of the widget to make it more competively priced and because, since they would be paying no corporate taxes, they could decrease the cost and keep their same profit margin. I guess the corporations could still charge the $1230 for the widget and then yes, the wealthy would go offshore to buy the cheaper widget at $1000. Ummm, how long would it take for the American corporations to say, "You know what, our sales are down, why don't we drop our price to be competitive since we can make the same amount of profit as we did before when paying taxes?" Your assumption assumes the American corporations making that widget would keep their widget price the same (plus the 23% tax), lose sales, and likely go bankrupt. Why would they do that when they could make the same amount of money as they did when they were paying corp taxes? I know it is difficult for some of you to not think like the government, but try, for a moment, and think like a business person. You know, the people who we want to provide jobs?

    And yes davidra....it is a "theory"....but so is all this health care reform BS, right? But yet you seem perfectly fine taking chances there. At least with the Fair Tax, we would know what is in the bill as there is a book on it that describes it. We wouldn't have to use the pelosi method of "voting for something before we can know what is in it". Wow, everytime I write that I have to say "wow".

    I was just meeting with a client who sells durable medical equipment. Listen to this BS. As you all know, the govt will be putting an additional tax on durable medical equipment. The maker of said equipment will increase the price of the medical equipment to my client to cover this new tax. My client meanwhile, who deals a lot with Medicare, can not increase what he charges (to pay for the now higher cost of the equipment) because the govt tells him what he can charge. He can't recoup the additional cost of the equipment. The medical networks are unlikely to negotiate a higher reimbursement rate either, so, he gets screwed. So what does he, the employer do? He lays of an employee or 2 to make up for this additional cost. This health care bill....this bill....it is going to hurt soooo many people in the pocket. In most cases, not the business owner, but the employees who either will lose jobs or benefits.
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  18. Micael's Avatar
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    #438  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    The only thing that would come of this is that the rich will buy offshore and large corps will be raking in more profit. They are moving jobs offshore left and right for cheaper labor and tax havens now and are the prices going down for us consumers? Nope! This fantasy that they will pass the savings on to you is just that, a fantasy...
    it's not about fantasy. it's simple math. they keep less, they spend less. they spend less, the economy slows. the economy slows, they cut jobs to stay afloat.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #439  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    The only thing that would come of this is that the rich will buy offshore and large corps will be raking in more profit. They are moving jobs offshore left and right for cheaper labor and tax havens now and are the prices going down for us consumers? Nope! This fantasy that they will pass the savings on to you is just that, a fantasy...
    How would the large corporations be "raking in more profit" if the rich are buying the products else where? That makes no sense. Please explain how a corporation makes more money when no sales are being made because they (the wealthy) are buying from foreign corporations. Why wouldn't the corporations here just reduce the price, be competitive, and still make the same amount of money? Did you read what you wrote? The American corporation wouldn't want to leave since they now would be paying no corp taxes, so there would be no reason to do that. In fact....ever think that maybe more corporations might move back to the US?

    Think about it....no more worrying about your receipts for tax time....no more filing taxes....no more worrying about what is exempt and what isn't exempt....no tax deadlines....no setting up trusts to try and avoid estate taxes....and likely....no more IRS!
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  20. #440  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    As I said, great idea, but people are people, and will do damn near anything to save a buck, thats how they got rich in the first place..
    Yes...exactly...but corporations will also do what it takes to make a buck, and that is reduce their price and stay in a country that isn't taxing them. You do realize that taxes are a cost, right?
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