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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #301  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    My question to you, do you really think it's a good idea to let our government officials try to remake the healthcare system directly? Do you really think that would turn out well? It'd be better for them to reform something simpler that can trickle to the industry as a whole reforming itself. And no, that healthcare law didn't come close to doing the job that really needed to be done.

    Honestly, health insurance is no different than a utility service. It's not real insurance because you're not pooling incase of an issue but because you know you'll need health services at some point in life. That is unless you are unlucky enough to manage to die really early on before obtaining any type of medical attention at all.
    I don't profess to have the answers. I can repeat some things that I've heard that seem to make sense to me. But one thing I feel strongly about is the reduction of the role of the government in our lives. There's an important role for government, but it's way way out of control as far as I'm concerned.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. #302  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I don't profess to have the answers. I can repeat some things that I've heard that seem to make sense to me. But one thing I feel strongly about is the reduction of the role of the government in our lives. There's an important role for government, but it's way way out of control as far as I'm concerned.
    I do agree the government has gotten out of control, probably for slightly different reasons than you do. But giving back control of the government to a party that is behaving badly to try to get it back doesn't help. It only perpetuates the problem and continues the cycle.

    I'm realistic so I don't expect this to happen but my real hope is that this election cycle the Repubs get smacked down hard.

    I don't feel that way because I think the Dems are any better, I really don't. I feel that way because after behaving so badly it might finally get the message through to at least one side that we want the cycle to end and instead of just attacking the other side for the sake of grabbing power that we want a REAL opposition party, one that will work to better the nation by providing substance instead of rhetoric.
  3. #303  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    As for the healthcare law, it's a Republican/Corporatist gutted abomination. What was needed was either removing profit gains from managing a direct service insurance pool, a government single payer system or placing the pool under non-profit organizations, or a complete overhaul of the healthcare system itself. Though I certainly would not trust government officials to managed the latter so the former would have been the better option.
    Well, I certainly agree with the first part of your post, but it is still better than no law. And while I can't absolutely disagree with your last sentence, it makes no difference. That ship has sailed. The country has waited too long to attempt to control costs. There is no way a for-profit company will be able to make money and cut costs. A system like Italy's will never work (and they have the second-best system in the world, supposedly) because it salaries providers. Germany is the only possibility of keeping a private system going, but their private insurers are non-profits. That would work for me, but they are losing money regardless. When costs have gotten to the level they are now, a public option MIGHT control costs if insurers were willing to compete. Otherwise, it's a single payor system in our future. Those are the choices you've got in the long run.
  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #304  
    Exactly how is healthcare a republican mess, and not just a mess (could it be that the gov has maybe a small hand in rising admin costs? hint-hint Medicare/caid?)
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #305  
    I don't know how they are justifying dragging their feet on this. The past 7 years at least it's been shown that a simple majority of Americans have been in favor of some kind of single-payer system to be made. That's the primary reason this healthcare bill saw so much hatred because it was hated by both sides, the majority and the vocal minority.
  6. #306  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    You are really serious, huh? You have no clue what is going on. The government (in 2014) will be sending "hundreds of thousands" of new customers to the insurance companies...but...they will be unhealthy customers...
    Yeah, I pretty much stopped reading there....
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  7. #307  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    ....Colen Powell did the same thing, he voted and supported obama because of his skin color. I feel that is wrong.....
    This is all based on your opinion and has nothing to do with any kind of reality! I bet it had nothing to do with him being displeased at being a pawn in the Bush admin's game to convince the UN and the world that Iraq had WMDs. Oh wait, he did admit that he was told to lie! This came out in Aug. 2005 WELL before his endorsement for Obama...

    Former aide: Powell WMD speech 'lowest point in my life' - CNN

    I am sure it was all about race though.....
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  8. #308  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    This is all based on your opinion and has nothing to do with any kind of reality! I bet it had nothing to do with him being displeased at being a pawn in the Bush admin's game to convince the UN and the world that Iraq had WMDs. Oh wait, he did admit that he was told to lie! This came out in Aug. 2005 WELL before his endorsement for Obama...

    Former aide: Powell WMD speech 'lowest point in my life' - CNN

    I am sure it was all about race though.....
    Ummm.....Bush wasn't running for President. Yes, it is my opinion, because Powell would not come out and say that he was voting for someone because he was black. For someone who was supposedly a Republican (perhaps he wasn't really a Republican, but he certainly didn't mind that portrayal), there is no way you could have voted for obama based on what he was running on, a liberal agenda.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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  9. #309  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Yeah, I pretty much stopped reading there....
    I don't blame you for having stopped reading because it completely shot down your point, lol. I believe you were trying to indicate that hundreds of thousands of clients would be coming to insurance companies with their premium dollars, correct? Was your point that this would then make insurance companies more money? But you see, if the outflows (claims) are more than inflows (premiums) then why would this be an advantage to insurance companies?

    By the way.....I've mentioned this before, but a little proof for it to hit home. Way to go democrats, at least in SC you have now made it so that even healthy children can't get health insurance. Let me stand and applaud you for backing a fine bill. A bill to lower premiums and provide coverage for children? Try again....premiuims increasing and now no coverage in SC for children. I salute you. A reason for a public option? Nope....a reason to get rid of ***** obama and ALL the ***** democrats who voted for this BS bill.

    Insurers stop adding kid policies | The Post and Courier, Charleston SC - News, Sports, Entertainment
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  10. #310  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Ummm.....Bush wasn't running for President.
    It was Bush and the GOP that screwed him over!

    Yes, it is my opinion, because Powell would not come out and say that he was voting for someone because he was black. For someone who was supposedly a Republican (perhaps he wasn't really a Republican, but he certainly didn't mind that portrayal), there is no way you could have voted for obama based on what he was running on, a liberal agenda.
    Powell is a MODERATE Republican, not some t-bagger extremist type that seems to be taking over the GOP. Obama, as much you will NEVER admit to it, is a MODERATE Democrat, so yes, they can and did have some common ground other than skin color.

    Powell also had inside information and knew the Iraq war was a joke and was smart enough to "jump ship" when he did. I am sure he saw McCain as a president who would continue the idiocy that was the Iraq war and smartly voted against that.

    It is funny that I point out that the GOP is mostly white and I get told that I am "playing the race card," even though Cellmatrix was so kind as to prove me right. But you say that the only reason Powell voted for Obama was because he was black. Who is playing the race card?!?!?!?!?!
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  11. #311  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Ummm.....Bush wasn't running for President. Yes, it is my opinion, because Powell would not come out and say that he was voting for someone because he was black. For someone who was supposedly a Republican (perhaps he wasn't really a Republican, but he certainly didn't mind that portrayal), there is no way you could have voted for obama based on what he was running on, a liberal agenda.
    Well of course you couldn't vote for Obama if you were a real Republican, it's called party loyalty. Which makes it all the more sad that McCain thought it was worth sacrificing his principles to court Repubs instead of trying to court the ones that would decide the election, moderates and independents.
  12. #312  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Exactly how is healthcare a republican mess, and not just a mess (could it be that the gov has maybe a small hand in rising admin costs? hint-hint Medicare/caid?)
    Actually....the whole health care mess is Ted Kennedy's fault, at least so says Jimmy Carter (LOL):

    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  13. #313  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    It was Bush and the GOP that screwed him over!



    Powell is a MODERATE Republican, not some t-bagger extremist type that seems to be taking over the GOP. Obama, as much you will NEVER admit to it, is a MODERATE Democrat, so yes, they can and did have some common ground other than skin color.

    Powell also had inside information and knew the Iraq war was a joke and was smart enough to "jump ship" when he did. I am sure he saw McCain as a president who would continue the idiocy that was the Iraq war and smartly voted against that.

    It is funny that I point out that the GOP is mostly white and I get told that I am "playing the race card," even though Cellmatrix was so kind as to prove me right. But you say that the only reason Powell voted for Obama was because he was black. Who is playing the race card?!?!?!?!?!
    Listen whateverator, you started this race issue....you can "him and haw" (sorry, unsure how to spell that one), say "I was taken out of context", try and avoid the issue....but you....and you alone threw the first race punch. I know you hate that fact....but you threw it out there and yes, I was simply pointing out that there are "black faces" in the Republican party. I can't help but notice you have not commented on there being 32 black Republicans running for office. Again....that just kind of ruins your whole charge, doesn't it? I can't help it if democrats decide to vote for the white guy and we can't get these very qualified people elected.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  14. #314  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Cell....thanks for kind of defending me....at least I think you were. While I agree the Republicans don't have any blacks in Congress right now, if you missed my post yesterday, we hopefully will have some qualified Representatives in there after the Nov elections. I can't speak about the other candidates, but Tim Scott (R-SC) will represent the Republican Party quite well should he get elected. I personally welcome anyone who will bring to the table conservative principles regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/05/us...acks.html?_r=2
    Hi, sorry I missed your post I guess, but thanks for posting the link again. Its certainly heartening to see any part of our society (including the GOP), making sincere efforts to achieve diversity.
  15. #315  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I don't blame you for having stopped reading because it completely shot down your point, lol. I believe you were trying to indicate that hundreds of thousands of clients would be coming to insurance companies with their premium dollars, correct? Was your point that this would then make insurance companies more money? But you see, if the outflows (claims) are more than inflows (premiums) then why would this be an advantage to insurance companies?
    Please show some data that the 30 million or so that will be added to the insurance pool are less healthy than the general population. The fact is that the vast majority of them are from working families, and for them, there is little liklihood that they are a bigger burden. More of them are younger, working lower paying jobs that don't provide insurance, and are therefore likely to be healthier. Sure, there is a generally held belief that workers are healthier....but most of these people are workers. Please remember, because you tend to forget this...most poor people already have insurance. It's the uninsured,most of whom are working, who will get the benefits.
  16. #316  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I don't blame you for having stopped reading because it completely shot down your point, lol....
    Yeah, keep telling yourself that....

    By the way.....I've mentioned this before, but a little proof for it to hit home. Way to go democrats, at least in SC you have now made it so that even healthy children can't get health insurance. Let me stand and applaud you for backing a fine bill. A bill to lower premiums and provide coverage for children? Try again....premiuims increasing and now no coverage in SC for children. I salute you. A reason for a public option? Nope....a reason to get rid of ***** obama and ALL the ***** democrats who voted for this BS bill.

    Insurers stop adding kid policies | The Post and Courier, Charleston SC - News, Sports, Entertainment
    You do realize that the insurance companies are not covering kids out of greed right? They are showing what true low life P.O.S. they are and you are there to applaud them for it. Very telling on your part...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  17. #317  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Listen whateverator, you started this race issue....you can "him and haw" (sorry, unsure how to spell that one), say "I was taken out of context", try and avoid the issue....but you....and you alone threw the first race punch.
    Yes, I pointed out that the republican is primarily white and rather than try to point out that I could be wrong, you pulled the "race card" argument. What I said is a FACT and can not be dis-proven. I am sorry that the reality of the GOP's diversity is pathetic and makes you sad. I have not avoided the issue at all. In fact, I have met yours and Morris' comments to me head on and I have no problem continuing to do so.

    Here is ALL of the African Americans currently serving in the senate and the congress...ALL DEMOCRATS!

    African Americans in the 111th Congress — Infoplease.com

    MY WORDS WERE RIGHT, I HAVE STOOD BY THEM AND I AM PROVEN TO BE RIGHT!!! CASE CLOSED....


    I know you hate that fact....but you threw it out there and yes, I was simply pointing out that there are "black faces" in the Republican party. I can't help but notice you have not commented on there being 32 black Republicans running for office. Again....that just kind of ruins your whole charge, doesn't it? I can't help it if democrats decide to vote for the white guy and we can't get these very qualified people elected.
    I ruins nothing!!! It is 2010 and we have to point out that there are finally African Americans in the GOP. Congrats and welcome to the modern world....
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  18. #318  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Just a fun question to anyone, left or right, who opposed the war:
    If you are for the healthcare plan because it helps those who can't help themselves, wouldn't you also be fore the war, which has helped those Iraqis who couldn't help themselves get rid of a dictator who killed his own people? I am not asking for a critique or justification of the rationale of going into Iraq in the first place, but just an answer as to whether or not the war was justified on the basis of helping those who couldn't help themselves.
    They are comparable in terms of actual deaths:
    Iraqis killed by Saddam: 28,600 a year (one million over 35 years)
    Americans killed from lack of health care: 45,000 a year
    But the two main differences are:
    1) Even though I have sympathy for Iraqis, fellow Americans getting killed is many orders of magnitude greater importance to me.
    2) While over 100,000 Iraqis and 5,000 Americans died to get rid of Saddam, no one needs to die in order to implement universal health coverage.
  19. #319  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    You do realize that the insurance companies are not covering kids out of greed right? They are showing what true low life P.O.S. they are and you are there to applaud them for it. Very telling on your part...
    No....you do realize that they aren't covering children because ***** obama wrote a piece of bill that does the opposite of what he said it would. Think about it....the goal was to lower premiums and make insurance accessible for children (everyone by 2014, but children by now). What has been accomplished whateverator? Premiums have gone up and healthy children don't have access to health care. So....has the bill been successful? I say no....so far....we have a complete failure.

    You can't make some of this stuff up. Take the Pre-Existing Condition Insurance Plan that was formed under obama care. Sounds good, right? A plan in each state that allows people who can't get coverage to be able to get an affordable health care plan, right? Well.....you have to go 6 months without coverage before you can qualify for it. What does this accomplish? Again, another strike on helping people get coverage. Go check it out: PCIP - Pre-existing Condition Insurance Plan - Home

    There is need for healthcare reform, but a 2500 page bill that doesn't work just doesn't cut it. Why do you think no democrats, other than obama (who simply doesn't understand it to begin with), runs on this amazing bill? Why do they run from it? They run from it because we are just finding out what was hidden in the 2500 pages (Pelosi: "We need to pass it so we can see what is in it" What? What? What?).

    Anyway....it's sad that a failed plan is better in some of you folk's minds than a plan that could have accomplished something. To say we are better off now is just plain ridiculous. I think you guys/gals know this, but can't bare to admit it as you still think obama is up on a pedestal.
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    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  20. #320  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    You can't make some of this stuff up.
    Actually you can as you just did make it up.. did you actually READ the statement you were referring too?

    PCIP was created as part of the Affordable Care Act. The PCIP program provides a new health coverage option for you if you have been uninsured for at least six months, you have a pre-existing condition OR have been denied health coverage because of your health condition, and are a U.S. citizen or are residing here legally.

    It sounds to me like a precaution so people don't just hop off their current insurance to hop on to this one. If you haven't actually been denied health insurance they make you wait before being eligible to go on the program.

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