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  1. #281  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post


    davidra, why would you call out clemgrad85 for bringing up skin color, in a positive light by saying he's voting for the man's ideas and not based on color, but keep quiet when this genius brings up race and presents it negatively? Why is it acceptable for the left to bring race into the conversation, but when the right makes any mention of it, all hell breaks loose?

    First, I wasn't even aware of any racial comments before I made my post. Second, now that I am, I agree that making an observation, even a stereotypical one, is different than feeling that you just HAVE to point out that the person you are voting for is a different color. Clemgrad wasn't proud about voting for someone who's ideals he agrees with...he was proud that he voted for someone who's black. That's why he bothered to mention it. Do you really not see a difference?
  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #282  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    davidra, why would you call out clemgrad85 for bringing up skin color, in a positive light by saying he's voting for the man's ideas and not based on color, but keep quiet when this genius brings up race and presents it negatively? Why is it acceptable for the left to bring race into the conversation, but when the right makes any mention of it, all hell breaks loose?
    Because they can? .
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #283  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    First, I wasn't even aware of any racial comments before I made my post. Second, now that I am, I agree that making an observation, even a stereotypical one, is different than feeling that you just HAVE to point out that the person you are voting for is a different color. Clemgrad wasn't proud about voting for someone who's ideals he agrees with...he was proud that he voted for someone who's black. That's why he bothered to mention it. Do you really not see a difference?
    No, I do see the difference. However, stating that he voted for black man did not really have a negative connotation to it. But saying that the GOP is full of white faces does, don't you think?

    Pretty funny how this thread has degraded into a debate on healthcare and the racial make up of the political parties. It really all comes down to the fundamental belief in the role gov't should have in the lives of the citizens. At least in theory. Those on the right put the emphasis on the individual to prop up society. Those on the left put the emphasis on society to prop up the individual. Now, there is not a problem with helping out those who cannot help themselves. The issue becomes whether one should be forced to help, either directly or monetarily. By all means, I am not praising myself, but to illustrate my position I can tell you that I participate in a few charitable organizations, I volunteer my help from time to time. It makes me feel good to help others. What I don't want is someone saying that I should help, that I need to give my money to others, that I have no choice but to pay for services provided to others.
    The issue of healthcare is a huge issue here, as it should be. Yes, healthcare does need to be overhauled, and if the free market and the parties involved can't do so, gov't should intercede. But the actions they've taken, in my opinion, are wrong, and possibly unconstitutional. I'm not going to debate it here, because it's been done and can be done elsewhere, but my main gripe with it is that it assumes you have a right to healthcare. I don't agree with that. No, I'm not heartless and in favor of having people suffer because they can't afford it. However, you don't have a right to it. Is it expensive? Of course it is, maybe too much so. However, take a look at those who can't afford it. Do they have a cell phone? Do they have cable or satellite tv? I'm not saying every one of them does, but I do know that a lot do, and there is the belief that they shouldn't have to give those things, or other luxuries up. If healthcare is a right, is having somewhere to live one as well? Is having food a right as well? If not, why? Wouldn't being without one or both of those be more detrimental to one's life than healthcare?
    I am in favor of having the gov't in my life as little as possible. I want to be solely responsible for my own success or failure. I don't want anyone to have to help me, but unfortunately, many people prefer this way of life. In fact, they think that they deserve it, that it's their right. That is a problem.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

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  4. #284  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    So handing the insurance companies hundreds of thousands of new customers and telling them that they can no longer deny us the services that we have already paid them for is "going after" them?!?!?!
    You are really serious, huh? You have no clue what is going on. The government (in 2014) will be sending "hundreds of thousands" of new customers to the insurance companies...but...they will be unhealthy customers. If.....IF....they made the penalty high enough to get the healthy folks to enroll it might offset these higher claim folks. But the penaly of $700 vs a premium of say $1200 is not going to force these people to buy a policy. Don't you get that? If you can pay a $700 penalty (thus saving $500) and enroll for health care when you need it, wouldn't you do that? This is not a positive for insurance companies. Remember, this is not a government plan that can take in less than they pay out and survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Please name another industry where I pay for a service, they tell me they are not going to provide that service, but they get to keep what I payed them anyway! Where I am from, that is call THEFT!!!
    Oh....you are using examples that obama gave out that in many cases were proven to be wrong or exaggerated. I don't seem to run into these issues with my clients...in fact....my insurance company just paid out a boat load of money to the hospital for my back surgery and I was out of pocket (not counting premiums) about $3000. The total bill (doctors, hospital, MRI, etc) came to around $24000 and I paid $3000. Sounds like a good deal to me. I can't help it if you get hooked up with lousy companies....there are good plans and bad plans. A little hint.....if you buy a plan that is half the premium and you are told the benefits are just as good.....run.....it likely isn't true.
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  5. #285  
    What do you pay for your plan? Or do you get it through your employer? If it's your employer do you pay the bulk of the cost or does your employer cover the bulk of the cost?
  6. #286  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    First, I wasn't even aware of any racial comments before I made my post. Second, now that I am, I agree that making an observation, even a stereotypical one, is different than feeling that you just HAVE to point out that the person you are voting for is a different color. Clemgrad wasn't proud about voting for someone who's ideals he agrees with...he was proud that he voted for someone who's black. That's why he bothered to mention it. Do you really not see a difference?
    I am not voting for Tim Scott because he is black, that is just what davidra assumes. I believe I said I was voting for him because of his ideas. Since Kenanator commented that the Republican party was "all white faces", I simply pointed out that the Republican in my district, that I was voting for because of his ideas, happened to be black. I wasn't bragging that I was voting for someone because of their skin color, that was your interpretation. I heard a CNBC commentator, who is black and quite conservative, say he voted for obama because of his skin color....he simply had to vote for him because it was a black man and possibly the next President. Colen Powell did the same thing, he voted and supported obama because of his skin color. I feel that is wrong. I didn't vote for obama because his ideas were really bad and had nothing to do with the color of this skin. As more black folks realize that the democratic party continues to push them into more and more reliance on the government, they too will start to vote for Republicans. The fact that 32 blacks are running as Republicans is further proof of this (I posted the link to the article discussing that yesterday).

    So once again, davidra, you are wrong in trying to explain my thinking. Same ole davidra, so high on your pedestal that you feel you can mind read and say what others are thinking. The "mighty" doctor speaks...and all must listen in awe. Just keep digging that hole you're in. Kenanator is the one that brought up race....not me. Do YOU really not see this?
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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  7. #287  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    No, I do see the difference. However, stating that he voted for black man did not really have a negative connotation to it. But saying that the GOP is full of white faces does, don't you think?
    I think that when Clemgrad85 was mentioning the candidate he was voting for was black he was being sincere and was saying it proudly. Good for you Clemgrad. This thread made me do a little research to actually see how many black members of congress there are, and it turns out there are 40 of them and they are all democrats, not a single republican. So to me, the comments made by others here that the GOP does lack diversity in its congressional makeup are quite true. So morrison, if you think that has a negative connotation to it, good for you, the first step towards solving a problem is to recognize it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Americans_in_the_United_States_Congress
  8. #288  
    Just a fun question to anyone, left or right, who opposed the war:
    If you are for the healthcare plan because it helps those who can't help themselves, wouldn't you also be fore the war, which has helped those Iraqis who couldn't help themselves get rid of a dictator who killed his own people? I am not asking for a critique or justification of the rationale of going into Iraq in the first place, but just an answer as to whether or not the war was justified on the basis of helping those who couldn't help themselves.
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  9. #289  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    What do you pay for your plan? Or do you get it through your employer? If it's your employer do you pay the bulk of the cost or does your employer cover the bulk of the cost?
    The cost for my wife and I runs about $200 a month for an HSA plan, $4000 deductible. And yes, a good portion of the premium is paid by her employer. We switched to the HSA plan in order to save premium dollars. As I'm sure you know, under an HSA plan I pay all expenses of a doctor visit and prescriptions out of my pocket and it is applied to my deductible. I have no co-pays and pay 100% of my health expenses until we hit the deductible amount. I also make sure the providers aren't screwing me and follow every penny. If I had to switch to an individual plan, it would cost me about $525 a month for a similar HSA plan.
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  10. #290  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Just a fun question to anyone, left or right, who opposed the war:
    If you are for the healthcare plan because it helps those who can't help themselves, wouldn't you also be fore the war, which has helped those Iraqis who couldn't help themselves get rid of a dictator who killed his own people? I am not asking for a critique or justification of the rationale of going into Iraq in the first place, but just an answer as to whether or not the war was justified on the basis of helping those who couldn't help themselves.
    My question to you would be why Iraq or why start/stop with Iraq? Why don't we march into the other countries that are less developed militarily with similar or WORSE dictators and depose them? Either we do it for ALL the countries in such a situtation or we stick to only the countries that actually attack or threaten to attack us which Iraq was not one of.
  11. #291  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    My question to you would be why Iraq or why start/stop with Iraq? Why don't we march into the other countries that are less developed militarily with similar or WORSE dictators and depose them? Either we do it for ALL the countries in such a situtation or we stick to only the countries that actually attack or threaten to attack us which Iraq was not one of.
    We have done that in the past. But don't answer my question with a question. Any thoughts?
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
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  12. #292  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    We have done that in the past. But don't answer my question with a question. Any thoughts?
    I think that if we're going to do it for one we should do it for all. That's my answer.

    But then I'm also not delusional about the real reason they did that. The real reason is of course oil. That's an oil producing country and most of the other countries with the same or worse dictators don't have any resources "we" are interested in.
  13. #293  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    I think that if we're going to do it for one we should do it for all. That's my answer.
    I don't think that's really an answer to my question. Just dodging. I'm assuming from your posts that you are in favor of the healthcare bill. Are you then also in support of the war, since as a result we have helped those who couldn't help themselves? That we have helped people who were being murdered or repressed?
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  14. #294  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    I don't think that's really an answer to my question. Just dodging. I'm assuming from your posts that you are in favor of the healthcare bill. Are you then also in support of the war, since as a result we have helped those who couldn't help themselves? That we have helped people who were being murdered or repressed?
    If the point was to help people and they planned to continue to the other countries that don't provide resources we actually want, simply to help the people then, yes.

    If the point was simply because that country is an oil producer and he wanted to use another excuse to invade them, then no.

    They didn't attack us after all unless you consider using the "free market" against us an attack.
  15. #295  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    If the point was to help people and they planned to continue to the other countries that don't provide resources we actually want, simply to help the people then, yes.

    If the point was simply because that country is an oil producer and he wanted to use another excuse to invade them, then no.

    They didn't attack us after all unless you consider using the "free market" against us an attack.
    Again, I'm not debating what the initial rationale for going to war was. We can do that elsewhere. Even though one could be against whatever other reasoning there was behind the war, shouldn't the result of millions of people being free of tyranny be reason enough? I'm glad you answered yes, as should everyone who claims that the healthcare bill is necessary because it helps those who can't afford it or be eligible for it on their own. If that is a cause to get behind, certainly there should be the same uproar about all the good the Iraqi and Afghanistan is doing, and an even larger uproar for the US to combat any other dictators across the globe, correct?
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  16. #296  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrison0880 View Post
    Again, I'm not debating what the initial rationale for going to war was. We can do that elsewhere. Even though one could be against whatever other reasoning there was behind the war, shouldn't the result of millions of people being free of tyranny be reason enough? I'm glad you answered yes, as should everyone who claims that the healthcare bill is necessary because it helps those who can't afford it or be eligible for it on their own. If that is a cause to get behind, certainly there should be the same uproar about all the good the Iraqi and Afghanistan is doing, and an even larger uproar for the US to combat any other dictators across the globe, correct?
    The ends do not justify the means. The answer is is "no" because the "yes" conditions were not met.

    As for the healthcare law, it's a Republican/Corporatist gutted abomination. What was needed was either removing profit gains from managing a direct service insurance pool, a government single payer system or placing the pool under non-profit organizations, or a complete overhaul of the healthcare system itself. Though I certainly would not trust government officials to managed the latter so the former would have been the better option.
  17. #297  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    The ends do not justify the means. The answer is is "no" because the "yes" conditions were not met.

    As for the healthcare law, it's a Republican/Corporatist gutted abomination. What was needed was either removing profit gains from managing a direct service insurance pool, a government single payer system or placing the pool under non-profit organizations, or a complete overhaul of the healthcare system itself. Though I certainly would not trust government officials to managed the latter so the former would have been the better option.
    Gonna have to disagree with ya, but you figured that was a given. =)
    I don't understand the purpose of the line, I don't need to drink to have fun. Great, no one does. But why start a fire with flint and sticks when they've invented the lighter?

    Let's all give thanks to the app that started it all.
    http://forums.precentral.net/homebre...ebrew-app.html
  18. Micael's Avatar
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    #298  
    Quote Originally Posted by Orion Antares View Post
    The ends do not justify the means. The answer is is "no" because the "yes" conditions were not met.

    As for the healthcare law, it's a Republican/Corporatist gutted abomination. What was needed was either removing profit gains from managing a direct service insurance pool, a government single payer system or placing the pool under non-profit organizations, or a complete overhaul of the healthcare system itself. Though I certainly would not trust government officials to managed the latter so the former would have been the better option.
    Sounds like the same old song. Rather than attacking the causes for high healthcare costs, you attack "profits" of the insurance companies, which percentage-wise is probably the least significant of all industries.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #299  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Sounds like the same old song. Rather than attacking the causes for high healthcare costs, you attack "profits" of the insurance companies, which percentage-wise is probably the least significant of all industries.
    My question to you, do you really think it's a good idea to let our government officials try to remake the healthcare system directly? Do you really think that would turn out well? It'd be better for them to reform something simpler that can trickle to the industry as a whole reforming itself. And no, that healthcare law didn't come close to doing the job that really needed to be done.

    Honestly, health insurance is no different than a utility service. It's not real insurance because you're not pooling incase of an issue but because you know you'll need health services at some point in life. That is unless you are unlucky enough to manage to die really early on before obtaining any type of medical attention at all.
  20. #300  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I think that when Clemgrad85 was mentioning the candidate he was voting for was black he was being sincere and was saying it proudly. Good for you Clemgrad. This thread made me do a little research to actually see how many black members of congress there are, and it turns out there are 40 of them and they are all democrats, not a single republican. So to me, the comments made by others here that the GOP does lack diversity in its congressional makeup are quite true. So morrison, if you think that has a negative connotation to it, good for you, the first step towards solving a problem is to recognize it.

    African Americans in the United States Congress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Cell....thanks for kind of defending me....at least I think you were. While I agree the Republicans don't have any blacks in Congress right now, if you missed my post yesterday, we hopefully will have some qualified Representatives in there after the Nov elections. I can't speak about the other candidates, but Tim Scott (R-SC) will represent the Republican Party quite well should he get elected. I personally welcome anyone who will bring to the table conservative principles regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/05/us...acks.html?_r=2
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