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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by LonghornTreo View Post
    Well it's a shame that an entire religion gets thrown into the fire because of the radical extremists, but unless they can begin to police their own, then I'm sorry it's just an outgrowth of the situation. Like it or not, it's not quakers, Hindus or wickens orchestrating these attacks, it's Muslims and during war time Americans have taken away liberties from entire groups for the protection of the greater whole. (See Japanese camps, American Indians, German Americans, etc.)
    You really can't use something as a precedent of it was later found to be illegal/wrong or otherwise bad.

    We paid BILLIONS to those held in camps during ww2. Judges later found that had the Army not intentionally destroyed documents, their detainment would never have been legal. The government has found itself in weakened positions when negotiating land disputes with Native Americans due to their treatment....
    Last edited by mrloserpunk; 09/09/2010 at 02:27 PM.
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by Fisack23 View Post
    Lots of interesting comments - some of them actually intelligent!

    My point is greater than just singling out Muslims right now - I am interested in building relationships with any person who is different from me. I have this belief (strange, misguided some might say) that God created all of us, and that all of us are equally loved in His sight. I am not any better because I am a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant Straight Male. If God loves gays, Muslims, Pakistanis, Canadians, women, African-Americans, and even WASP's, then I would like to get to know them, too. (Heck, I'll even learn to love country music fans!)

    Right now I'm suggesting "Take a Muslim to lunch" - because I see more fear being spread about Islam than truth. I am encouraging people to make it a point to actually get to know someone before we judge them.

    It could just as well be "Take a Gay to lunch" or "Take a Redneck to a barbecue". Take some time to meet someone out of your normal circle of contacts, and see what's good about them.
    Spoken like a Grand Appeaser, unfortunately the world doesn't operate like this. Reaching out and embracing a disparate group only works when both sides are seeking a peaceful coexistence. As wonderful as this ideal is, history has shown for thousands of years that there are often groups that just cannot be negotiated with on issues. How would one have negotiated items with the ****s? Is there a certain number of jews you would have allowed them to exterminate? What about African warlords, Is there a certain number of villages it would be alright to let them ravage and burn? The same is true for radical islamists. Would you be willing to have American walk away from any involvement in the middle east whatsoever, no matter what countries were involved?

    In the span of history, please name me a concrete example of an oppressing power that was every removed or changed from only negotiations.
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  3. Micael's Avatar
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    #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by zulfaqar621 View Post
    No the philosophy they flew in on was wrapped reality. Something they shared with Tim McVeigh, IRA, ETA, Tamil Tigers, just to name a couple. They share nothing with me but the name of a religion. If I could somehow take that away from them I would but I cant.
    Not by yourself. But perhaps a grass roots effort by good muslims to reeducate those who have fallen prey to extremists and to counter the extremist's propaganda? Where's the pushback from within your community?

    I'm at the mercy of the media and online print, so maybe I'm missing that this counter-movement is already under way?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrloserpunk View Post
    can't use something as precedent of it was later found to be illegal/wrong or others bad.
    I could equally say to you what precedent has there ever been where negotiating with a radical oppressive group has ever yielded a lasting peace.
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  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by zulfaqar621 View Post
    Please point to a source that proves this.
    BBC report this morning,.. pointed at numerous Muslim newspapers/ radio stations and TV.. the only country that had no comment was Syria, nothing at that point from their official news outlets or the semi official ones. The rest were demanding it be stopped. The protests in kabul and through out pakistan and serveral other mulsim nations. Death to America was the chant at the rallies.. .
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  6. #86  
    Victims of the Koran Burning will be the minorities in the Muslims countries.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Not by yourself. But perhaps a grass roots effort by good muslims to reeducate those who have fallen prey to extremists and to counter the extremist's propaganda? Where's the pushback from within your community?

    I'm at the mercy of the media and online print, so maybe I'm missing that this counter-movement is already under way?
    Extremist Reeducation and Rehabilitation in Saudi Arabia ( single - The Jamestown Foundation[tt_news]=4321 )

    Muslim leaders urge Imams to help UK fight terrorism ( Muslim leaders urge Imams to help UK fight terrorism - World - NZ Herald News )

    Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks ( Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks ) - this one has links to many many more articles and Muslim scholar/clerics views on terrrorism.

    I'm sure I could keep finding more but this should suffice for now.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrloserpunk View Post
    can't use something as precedent of it was later found to be illegal/wrong or others bad.
    i dont think it was being used as a precedent, more likely an example of what has happened in the past.

    Could what happened to the Japanese during world war 2 happen again, ...yes.
    Given enough fear, and a really huge event, absolutely. Would it be justified? That could go either way. A lot can be justified in the name of public safety.
    5th column, fears are real. that fear is a legitimate fear. It is not like you can pick a radical anything out of a group of people, any group people. So yes, at any given moment, damn near anything is justifiable.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by LonghornTreo View Post
    I could equally say to you what precedent has there ever been where negotiating with a radical oppressive group has ever yielded a lasting peace.
    we are not talking about a radical oppressive group, we are talking about the entire religion. U want to go to war with the taliban? Enlist. You want to strip my muslim-american friends of their constitutional rights because of their religion? Your gonna have to fight me.
    "When there is no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth"


    PM me your questions, If I cant find an answer, I'll show you who can.
  10.    #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by LonghornTreo View Post

    In the span of history, please name me a concrete example of an oppressing power that was every removed or changed from only negotiations.
    India. Mahatma Gandhi. Overcame British oppression through peaceful non-violence.
  11. Micael's Avatar
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    #91  
    It's amazing then that you don't hear about Muslims pushing back, as apparently they are. I hope for their success.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. Tedcas's Avatar
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    #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by Fisack23 View Post
    India. Mahatma Gandhi. Overcame British oppression through peaceful non-violence.
    Dr King did a pretty good job as well....
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    i dont think it was being used as a precedent, more likely an example of what has happened in the past.

    Could what happened to the Japanese during world war 2 happen again, ...yes.
    Given enough fear, and a really huge event, absolutely. Would it be justified? That could go either way. A lot can be justified in the name of public safety.
    5th column, fears are real. that fear is a legitimate fear. It is not like you can pick a radical anything out of a group of people, any group people. So yes, at any given moment, damn near anything is justifiable.
    totally correct.

    If some without power, who desperately hate the ideology those dully elected, could find something to scare the majority of Americans that would galvanize them again (like 9/11) and make them turnout and vote out those they now have suspicions about..... why that would be an amazing political weapon. If this fear was wielded correctly, it could guarantee their rule. Possibly giving them a majority.

    So paint obama as a Muslim, and all Muslims as terrorists... anyways so that's the underlying message... but you don't want the stench of that on your hands, so in the public forum, you "take his word for it" and that "we know less about him than any other president"
    "When there is no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth"


    PM me your questions, If I cant find an answer, I'll show you who can.
  14. Micael's Avatar
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    #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by Fisack23 View Post
    India. Mahatma Gandhi. Overcame British oppression through peaceful non-violence.
    through non-violence, yes... but there were definite pressures applied - it wasn't simply through negotiations.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    BBC report this morning,.. pointed at numerous Muslim newspapers/ radio stations and TV.. the only country that had no comment was Syria, nothing at that point from their official news outlets or the semi official ones. The rest were demanding it be stopped. The protests in kabul and through out pakistan and serveral other mulsim nations. Death to America was the chant at the rallies.. .
    I was hoping for something more specific like a link to an article. Even so you haven't proven that those Muslims who are offended by the Quran burning are "asking for American blood". The protests you mention that there has been chanting of death to America are in regions rife with extremists, so please prove these are "the most liberal Muslims". You are taking two different reactions and painting all Muslims as having one reaction.

    Just so its clear I am offended by the actions of the Pastor in Fl but I also don't want to circumvent his constitutional rights. I also pray that Muslims worldwide will peacefully protest his actions and understand that any violence committed is antithetical to our teachings.

    We have a narration that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) when he first started taking his message to the people of Medinah, there was this one woman who hated him so much she would throw trash on him everyday as he would walk to the mosque to pray. The Prophet never said an unkind word to her let alone assault her or allow anyone else to do so on his behalf. One day he walks past her house and notices the lady had not thrown trash on him. So after his prayers he goes to the door of the woman and asks why the woman did not come out that day. Her son told him that she was sick. The Prophet asked to go and wish her well.

    This is the example that we are given by our Prophet. So to all the Muslims I say follow his example and show compassion to even you enemies.
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    It's amazing then that you don't hear about Muslims pushing back, as apparently they are. I hope for their success.
    It doesnt sell papers, sadly.
  17.    #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tedcas View Post
    Dr King did a pretty good job as well....
    I thought about Dr. King. I refrained because some will try to say that the militant group the Black Panthers helped to force the issue, although he was not associated with them.

    Maybe that's a good illustration of our discussion - some will try to discount his achievements because he was black, as were the Panthers.

    Maybe we should outlaw all men, since the 9/11 terrorists were all male? Or singles, since none of them that I know of were married?
  18. #98  
    oh how about Caesar Chavez?
    "When there is no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth"


    PM me your questions, If I cant find an answer, I'll show you who can.
  19. #99  
    "When there is no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth"


    PM me your questions, If I cant find an answer, I'll show you who can.
  20. #100  
    Everyone here should remember that this is a very touchy topic. Most of America and her allies took 9/11 very personal. Almost all were affected by it, in some way and as a nation, we tend to hold a grudge. In this case, we've been given a very good reason to do so!
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