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  1. #101  
    clemgrad85 your wife has a short memory span. Remember during the elections how the GOP tried to slander Obama because there was something controversial about the pastor of his church? I don't remember the details but I distinctly remember the bashing of said pastor and Obama's affiliation with his church. Somehow everyone has forgotten about this apparently.

    And yes, Obama doesn't support gay marriage (which sucks IMHO). This doesn't make it any less crappy that all right wingers don't either.

    Just for the sake of clarity, apparently people here think I'm a huge Obama fan. I'm not really. I'm kind of indifferent about him. Part of me thinks he's trying but another part of me thinks he's breaking a lot of promises he made during election time.

    I kinda dislike almost any politician. Both in the US and in my own country (heck, I hate them even more over there which is one of the big reasons why I don't live there anymore) They're all crooks and liars if you think of it. I just happen to have extra issues with the principles that guide the tea party.
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  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMarco View Post
    clemgrad85 this is a good question. Honestly, I don't know. I do know that with federal and state combined I pay more than I'd like. However there's a big BUT.

    I don't mind paying this tax if the money would be spent on things that actually benefit the people. Schools are a great example. The school my daughter is going to has so little money that they pretty much need to beg all parents to chip in with all sorts of things. I think this is completely ridiculous. I'd like to see my tax money go to that school. It would be nice if the US would utilize all of it's intellectual potential among children rather than only the ones among the top 10% that can afford ridiculously expensive private schools. It's flat out stupid not to from a government point of view.

    I don't mind paying tax. I do mind the money being spent on ridiculous nonsense, wars being the most important one, while people are starving and schools are struggling to stay afloat. It's ridiculous.
    If you're talking schools, then I believe you are referring to state and local taxes.....you need to get on a school board and go after that. As I'm sure you are aware, there is nothing in the Constitution that makes eduction a "right". This is a state issue, so really would have nothing to do with my question regarding Federal taxation.

    My sister's children called me the other night to donate money for a fund raiser for their school (public school). Of course I dontated some money. It is a shame that some areas are having such a big shortage in funding for schools. What is odd, is that it seems that the more money that is thrown at schools, the more trouble they seem to get in. I think the problem is the money is being spent on the wrong things rather than in actually educating children. Just my thought.

    As for taxes....I don't like paying taxes. I pay quarterly taxes and when you stroke a check for a whole quarters worth of taxes, it really takes your breath away. I think the problem is most people have it taken out each week from their pay check and really don't understand how much they pay, well, at least some people. I pay enough taxes and the problem is this country refuses to cut back on anything. I think I heard today that 1 out of every 5 people in this country is receiving some type of government benefit. WOW....think about that....1 out of every 5 is receiving a government hand out. Amazing.....I don't think the writers of the Constitution envisioned a country where certain people get taxed to support others....maybe I'm wrong and maybe that was their goal....but my guess it it wasn't. Does that mean people shouldn't help others? Of course not.....I give to the charities of my choice that I see as helping others. Want to help feed someone? Give to Meals on Wheels or go help them deliver the food or some other charity that YOU feel is worthwhile. Do you really think the government is best at deciding how to spend YOUR money?
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  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMarco View Post
    clemgrad85 your wife has a short memory span. Remember during the elections how the GOP tried to slander Obama because there was something controversial about the pastor of his church? I don't remember the details but I distinctly remember the bashing of said pastor and Obama's affiliation with his church. Somehow everyone has forgotten about this apparently.
    Oh no....my wife remembers the good Rev Wright, LOL. Her point, as was many people's point, was how could a Christian go to a church that preached hate. I have to admit, it was hard to argue that point. Rev Wright clearly is a hateful person towards many white people.....all you had to do was listen to him to discover that. Of course, apparently he only preached his racist sermons when obame wasn't there.
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  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    @CLEM, I don't know that he is a democrat, he's from europe. He has just been commenting on the whacky politics as lobbying nonsense in America - not taking any sides.

    BTW, I will answer the "how much" question:

    10%


    From every paycheck we give 10%, and save 10% right off the top. Why should the federal government have the expectation that they are entitled to more than God is?

    I wish a politician would run on that platform: 10% maximum tax with no deductions. If 10% is good enough for God, it's good enough for Americans!

    Has a nice ring to it, eh?
    Well 10% will never happen either, LOL. The Fair Tax, wow, what a great plan. All the under the table money that isn't taxed, all the drug money that isn't taxed, all the money that currently avoids taxation would be taxed when people spent money. Of course, there is a check that each person/family gets each month to offset the taxes of the basic essentials, therefore meaning many people still will not be paying any federal taxes! If anyone wants to learn about this program, get the book....a very short book but will open your eyes to a simple and FAIR system. The rich will get hit everytime they buy a fancy car, a yacht, jewelry, etc.
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  5. #105  
    The BIIIIG problem with government benefits is the abuse of them. This abuse is even worse in Europe than it is here. In Holland it's borderline pathetic.

    Now the thing is, rather than doing something about all this abuse, politicians just tend to want to either increase them (left) or decrease them (right). Both are wrong. The ones that actually NEED the benefits such as elderly people, the handicapped, single mothers etc. etc. end up getting nothing because of all the freeloaders. Obviously all the freeloaders make people angry, including me.

    Nobody wants to do any actual work and just aims for the low hanging fruit.

    Benefits are good. But only for those who NEED them, like people who would literally die without them. I have absolutely no problem supporting these people with my tax money.

    I'm all for more efforts on fighting fraud. tax fraud, benefit fraud etc. But you never hear a single politician come up with a plan to do this. Instead let's just destroy everything for those who are really in need.

    Similar crap happens with immigration. Rather than doing constructive things like swiftly deporting all immigrants who only come in to enter the criminal scene governments are applying blanket approaches making things ridiculously hard for everyone including those who want to make a honest living and contribute to society, including paying tax and stuff.

    Like I said before, politicians suck. All of them.
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  6. #106  
    Because I've regrettably been tied up in staff conferences, I have been unable to read and participate in the forum today. As many of you can well understand, the arrival in Washington of those thousands and thousands of Beckoned drones, has provoked a crisis here in the subterranean offices of BARYE's World Liberation headquarters.

    The observation of those drones -- together with the prospect of a GOP takeover of congress come November -- has necessitated an emergency acceleration of our planetary liberation planning. I fear if we wait until beyond November, the worldwide GOP/Tea-bagger swath of destruction will be so catastrophically wide as to make the prize not worth having.

    Please accept my apologies ...
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  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by ferriskeanu View Post
    And what got us to this point to begin with?...lack of regulation?...yes..and it was in the form of fannie and freddie... I will let the facts speak for themselves...and even better...in the democrats own words.... [url= - Shocking Video Unearthed Democrats in their own words Covering up the Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac Scam that caused our Economic Crisis[/url]

    EDIT: Everybody deserves to be a homeowner even if it means living beyond their means...right?...and taxpayers should guarantee these loans in more than one way...right?...nevermind...it must be Bush's fault...right?...all wrong...even though I have criticism for George as well...heres link again...came out during edit
    I think you are saying -- if I am interpreting correctly -- that the housing, mortgage meltdown, and banking cataclysm all originated in the lending policies of Fanny, Freddie Mae ?? Is that an accurate understanding of your views ??

    So that we perhaps talk intelligently together on that topic, please if you will, read carefully this thread:

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/of...can-dream.html
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  8. #108  
    @theMarco I think we all agree that it is good to help those that need help. I would argue that there is no more inefficient way to do that than to ask the government to do it.

    I would cheerfully give many times more to charity if I didn't have the government taking it. And many more of those dollars would actually be passed through to the needy rather than being siphoned off to fund govt salary and pension funds. You are right that politicians suck.

    The characteristic that makes them want to be elected is also the very thing that should disqualify them from being allowed to run - greed and corruption.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by ferriskeanu View Post
    Heres another good one:

    Obama inheriting a 1.2 trillion dollar deficit. Lets start off by the fact that it was a Democrat controlled congress (no...I am not a republican). And it is congress that decides spending. Not to mention that Obama voted for 800 billion of the 1.2 trillion he says he inherited. How do you inherit something you voted for?

    I have a whole lot of myth vs fact just as I am sure you may or may not. I could go on and on...
    1. gee -- and how big a deficit did junior inherit ??

    2. What part of the deficit bequeathed by junior derived from his contrived little war against Iraq ???

    3. What part of the deficit bequeathed by junior derived from his unjustified tax cuts for the wealthiest americans -- those least needing help ??

    BTW -- is the vote you're talking about the one where both Obama, McCain, and bipartisan majority of mature congressmen voted to support junior's Secretary of Treasury's TARP bailout plans ??
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  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    Even if they report facts, they can show bias by which stories they don't cover, what facts are included, what is considered to be "a fact", etc.
    yaa -- ok ...
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  11. #111  
    Back to the Tea Party for a bit:

    I'm genuinely interested if anyone has any articles / findings that debunk the NPR article I posted earlier.

    The Brothers Koch: Rich, Political And Playing To Win : NPR

    If it's true it means all tea party members are nothing but drones for these folks. Without knowing so most of the time.
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  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    what I'm saying is that people bring a point of view with them to everything because they are human. the key is to recognize it and be open about it.

    you really need to read that book I mentioned earlier. for example, he mentions a survey of journalists that showed something like 90% see themselves as moderate/middle of the road.

    the certainly believe that, but I think we all know that the press hasn't been "middle" on anything in decades. very few people think of themselves as being on an extreme, but they often are.

    I don't think anyone wants to make the argument that the average journalist covering politics is aligned with most americans (by definition the statistical middle). but those journalists certainly think they are aligned. bias is almost impossible to see in the mirror.

    I don't think the concept of the "moderate middle" has changed all that much. They are just people open to ideas and information, and willing to learn from events and adapt their own beliefs appropriately to the world as it evolves.

    To the right this willingness to adjust their beliefs according to facts they come to understand, means that they were always closet liberals.

    An excellent example of this is Justice Souter -- a moderate/conservative appointed to the Supreme Court by daddy Bush -- who now is hated by the right as a turncoat liberal.
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  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    The point is whether or not they're reporting fairly, or not; Both sides on the issues, not whether or not they're socialists. It doesn't matter.

    Cronkite left me guessing for years, btw. He finally came out and confirmed he was liberal, in the end. One could argue that his coverage of Vietnam, in hind sight, was definitely of liberal bend - and some say led to the losing of the war.
    huh ????

    Cronkite lead to the loss in Viet Nam ????!!????

    Where do I start ...

    That war -- that mindless machine which mauled more than 50,000 americans -- what was it being fought for ?????!!??

    Against Viet Nam -- who, if you follow the news, is now currently one of our closest allies in Asia -- and that has one of the fastest developing economies in the world.

    What Cronkite did was go to Viet Nam to investigate for himself how the war was progressing -- a war he had originally supported.

    What he found was a pattern of lies and self deception -- a battle without end, a war without achievable objectives, predicated on fictitious body counts, without a strategy for success, and without allies capable of engendering loyalty and sacrifice from their own citizens.

    But again, most of all -- it was a war predicated on a lie, conducted without a purpose.

    What Cronkite did at great personal risk -- was heroic. He had the courage and patriotism to come out and state his PERSONAL view of that horrible senseless war. Because of the great respect and trust he had earned from a long history of objective news reporting, his opinions carried great weight amongst the public -- and contributed to ending support for the war (which btw, lasted another 5-6 years).
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/31/2010 at 08:47 AM. Reason: clarity and typos
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  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I don't think the concept of the "moderate middle" has changed all that much. They are just people open to ideas and information, and willing to learn from events and adapt their own beliefs appropriately to the world as it evolves.

    To the right this willingness to adjust their beliefs according to facts they come to understand, means that they were always closet liberals.

    An excellent example of this is Justice Souter -- a moderate/conservative appointed to the Supreme Court by daddy Bush -- who now is hated by the right as a turncoat liberal.
    So you are saying there are liberals, future liberals, and conservatives that are wrong. Wuh?
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  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMarco View Post
    Back to the Tea Party for a bit:

    I'm genuinely interested if anyone has any articles / findings that debunk the NPR article I posted earlier.

    The Brothers Koch: Rich, Political And Playing To Win : NPR

    If it's true it means all tea party members are nothing but drones for these folks. Without knowing so most of the time.
    I'll let someone else work the googles for contrary articles.

    But it's a mistake to assume (on either side of the aisle) that the feet on the street are mindless drones at someone else's mercy. The truth is that in most movements, those at the bottom are true believers being exploited by those in charge. Look at Palestinians. They believe, and are manioulated by other arab countries. Look at those on either side of abortion. They believe, but are manipulated by politicians. Look at the healthcare debate. They believe, and they are manipulated by politicians on both sides that couldn't care less about whether anyone ever gets healthcare.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    yaa -- ok ...
    are you agreeing or being sarcastic?
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post

    Hi Barye. Let me help. I'll paste something I found on Wikianswers that pretty much covers it:

    Quote:His party was called "National Socialist". Clue is in the name.

    More:
    In terms of American politics, he was more left wing than right. Hi4ler advocated socialist policies including universal access to healthcare, cradle to grave welfare, government control of virtually ever aspect of citizens' lives etc. While he had some traits in common with conservatives, including nationalism (love for ones country), and a large military, most of his policies were indeed left wing.

    In terms of world politics, his ideas were also left wing. His views and the views of Joseph Sta1in are remarkably similar, including a tight control of the media, mass genocide, and extremely powerful government. Hi4ler disliked Communism because he believed that there was "Jewish influence" on Communism, due to the fact that the author or the "Communist Manifesto" and the creator of Communism in general was Jewish. However, his policies were indeed similar to the 20th century Communist policies, which are extreme leftist regimes.

    Does that clear it up for you?
    Huh ??!!???

    This is why history should only be practiced by licensed professionals. (licensed by a board operated and controlled by BARYE).

    Htler was of a generation of tyrants who saw words, names, and ideas as just tools to achieve and weld power.

    He called himself "socialist" as a way of co-opting the communist wave that had taken considerable root in Germany following The Great War and the Great Depression.

    Htler actually practiced a cynical form of state capitalism -- where by he formed corporate/state alliances between megacorporations and his own party and state.

    Practically everything his state did was part of the enterprise of war.

    Building autobahns, rearming -- ostensibly this was about re-employing the unemployed -- but it was really a part of the preparation for war. The funding of research into exotic weapons. The promotion of Aryan motherhood to encourage more babies, and more soldiers. The initial phase of capturing the border regions where Germans were the primary populations (like Austria, the Czech Sudetenland, etc.) was aimed at recruiting additional soldiers. All this was prepatory to war.

    The state control of industries, of media and propaganda of course, had the same aim -- war.

    State supported health care tied people more closely to the state, made them more dependent on the state, and more loyal and malleable as well. It also had the indirect objective as I said earlier -- of promoting the birth of Aryan babies.

    The persecution of the Jews, had several inspirations -- it clearly derived deep from within Htler's twisted soul -- but it also served as a propaganda tool to unite the population against an artificial, contrived enemy -- a faux foe against whom the state could blame all their troubles, and could ascribe as the cause for the war.

    Persecuting the Jews additionally provided the state with billions in confiscated/stolen wealth -- used to assist in financing the war. Billions in gold taken from the teeth of Jews exterminated in the camps was traded to the the Swiss during the war.

    (these marathon of posts btw, were written straight through -- without contemplation or research ...)
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/31/2010 at 12:55 AM.
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  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    Look at Palestinians. They believe, and are manioulated by other arab countries. Look at those on either side of abortion. They believe, but are manipulated by politicians. Look at the healthcare debate. They believe, and they are manipulated by politicians on both sides that couldn't care less about whether anyone ever gets healthcare.
    These statements need a lot of factual backing before I can take them even remotely seriously.
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  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    So you are saying there are liberals, future liberals, and conservatives that are wrong. Wuh?
    the primary divide in my world is between the intelligent open minded -- and the brain dead.

    Ted Olson -- a figure toward whom I had particular antipathy for countless years -- has recently come to understand that the rights of anyone to choose whom they want to marry is a constitutionally protected civil right. (he had argued on behalf of junior vs. Gore before the Supreme Court -- getting junior the presidency)

    I doubt he felt that way a decade ago.

    Daniel Ellsberg was a highly respected Pentagon analyst who advocated on behalf of the Viet Nam war -- he even as a civilian, went to Viet Nam and participated in combat patrols (under fire) as part of his research.

    He came to see that the war was wrong, impossible to win, and destructive for america -- and came eventually to oppose it. He ultimately exposed the war's corruption through the release of the Pentagon Papers.

    I admire those who are willing to see and comprehend truth -- and have the courage to allow it to affect them.

    I despise those who are unable to be open to learning what they don't know, and too arrogant and stupid to recognize and admit the limitations of what they do know.
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/31/2010 at 02:05 PM.
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  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    are you agreeing or being sarcastic?
    no, not really.

    What you're saying is true -- its how things do work.

    But there are also things that are to me objective facts -- information that is not properly the realm of interpretation.

    I earlier gave an example in one of Beck's homi-lies.

    Its something he does repeatedly -- but his audience is so uninformed, so poorly educated, that they accept his garbage as gospel.
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