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  1. #241  
    I thought he (Micael debating Barye) had been mostly focused on the topic of whether the N@zzis were right or left.

    What's funny is the notion that if a "left-wing" person exhibits racism, that just means that he has a personality flaw whereby he is exhibiting an isolated "right-wing" behavior.

    As opposed to Micael's view (which I share) that racism is not left or right, it's just wrong. And the terms left/right mean different things to different cultures and points in history.

    I've been searching the web for any authoritative source that defines right or left as meaning the same thing throughout history, or demonstrating that only people on the right are racist because any racist on the left is simply showing schizophrenia by having a small right-wing flaw grafted on to their DNA. That's just silly.

    Same applies to terms such as conservative/liberal/progressive. For example:

    The framers of the constitution were all about limiting government, personal liberty, with no notion of things like welfare or social entitlements.

    But they overthrew a government, created a government unlike any other, and showed vision that history has proven to be brilliant.

    All of that would make them VERY progressive and liberal. Yet, those concepts (limited federal govt, state autonomy where possible, no govt religion, etc etc). That's change, that's new, that's turning away from traditional structure. That's progressive, that's liberal. Were they really closeted right-wing conservatives? As I've been saying, parties tend to move between liberal/conservative, left/right etc based on historical context.

    That's how you can have dictators referred to as "leftist" and others as "right-wing hard liners".

    I can't wait to hear the explanation of how America's founding fathers were actually hard-right conservatives. What I'm expecting to hear is agreement that they were liberal/progressives - but because they didn't abolish slavery they had the dreaded "right-wing" flaw of racism because "racism" is a synonym for "right".

    in 3 - 2 - 1.... go!
    Last edited by Workerb33; 09/01/2010 at 12:07 PM.
  2. #242  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    He thinks Mormonism is in no way linked to Christianity!!!
    I don't understand the photo, but yes I think they are not linked.

    Traditionally you find orthodox Christianity with a core around one God, Jesus being God's only son, fully God and Fully human, and salvation being through Jesus only.

    As I understand Mormanism (which I will start reading up on) they believe in multiple Gods, see Jesus as just one of God's sons, and salvation being something other than through Jesus.

    Please don't flame me on how silly all that sounds, or why people who believe any religion are crazy, yada yada yada.

    Focus on the point that those core principles make Mormons sound VERY different from Christianity. It sounds as different as Islam does. Islam sees Jesus as a great prophet and teacher, but not God's son or path to salvation, etc.

    In that sense Mormons and Islam have more in common with each other than with orthodox Christian doctrine.

    So save the flames, but feel free to post credible core doctrine that Mormons and Christians share. Essential beliefs only - like nature of God, path to salvation, identity of Jesus, etc. Not tangents like whether one should dance/smoke/chew or go with the girls that do, plural marriage, etc.

    and with sources, not just pictures or opinions. this isn't the front page of USA Today
  3. #243  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Whoops! If I came off as insulting, I apologize. I was trying for slightly snarky. I actually hold you in high esteem!
    I wasn't really that insulted -- mostly exasperated.

    And, as I hope you know, I have great affection and esteem for you.

    This topic is regularly a source of frustration, emotion, and misunderstandings.

    Its why I usually steer clear of it.

    FWIW, I do have some empathy for those on the right who attempt to debate the topic from what they mean to be a neutral intellectual objectivity -- but who despite their best efforts inevitably become ensnared in the barbed wire of recrimination and unintended messages.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  4. #244  
    ok ok barye an micael get a room.. make ou.. up there..
    racisim,, i look at this this way.. i dont care about what you look like say or do.. i hate everyone... equally..
    down with human beings up with deer flies.. the true rulers of the world.
    right left racist not racist simple rule, treat everyone the way you want to be treated..
    i have met bigots from all walks of life.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  5. #245  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Considering the source, both of us should feel empowered and proud. I know I do. Nothing like a little knowledge of history to clarify things. You should try it sometime.
    That's what I find fascinating about Davidra, so predictable, lol.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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  6. #246  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post

    As opposed to Micael's view (which I share) that racism is not left or right, it's just wrong. And the terms left/right mean different things to different cultures and points in history.


    Same applies to terms such as conservative/liberal/progressive. For example:

    The framers of the constitution were all about limiting government, personal liberty, with no notion of things like welfare or social entitlements.

    But they overthrew a government, created a government unlike any other, and showed vision that history has proven to be brilliant.

    All of that would make them VERY progressive and liberal. Yet, those concepts (limited federal govt, state autonomy where possible, no govt religion, etc etc). That's change, that's new, that's turning away from traditional structure. That's progressive, that's liberal. Were they really closeted right-wing conservatives? As I've been saying, parties tend to move between liberal/conservative, left/right etc based on historical context.

    That's how you can have dictators referred to as "leftist" and others as "right-wing hard liners".

    I can't wait to hear the explanation of how America's founding fathers were actually hard-right conservatives. What I'm expecting to hear is agreement that they were liberal/progressives - but because they didn't abolish slavery they had the dreaded "right-wing" flaw of racism because "racism" is a synonym for "right".

    in 3 - 2 - 1.... go!
    I agree that terms change with the times. I also agree that racism is wrong. As I've already said, I think anyone opposed to civil rights is a racist. There were racist dixiecrats who ended up switching to the republican party (think of Clemgrad's hero, Strom Thurmond, who ran for president as a segregationist and then promptly switched to the republican party because their racial philosophy was closer to his...only after fathering a black child on the way). There were racist democrats, there were racist republicans. Forget left and right if you want. The republican party carries the south routinely. Hey...what a coincidence. NOT. Maybe it's because of the profound philosophy of the rural whites who voted republican about 80-20 in presidential elections, ya think? Because there's no way it could be racism, subtle or otherwise, right? The republican party has opposed civil rights for gays, is opposed to granting a path to citizenship to specific minorities, quotas, equal opportunity...tell me, are you seeing a pattern here? I am. What I'm not saying is that all republicans are racist. In fact, I would venture to say that relatively few on this board are. What I am saying is that without coddling racists and their ideas, and handily collecting their votes, the republican party would lose every election. Do you doubt that? Do you really think there are similar numbers of racists in each party? I don't.
  7.    #247  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I agree that terms change with the times. I also agree that racism is wrong. As I've already said, I think anyone opposed to civil rights is a racist. There were racist dixiecrats who ended up switching to the republican party (think of Clemgrad's hero, Strom Thurmond, who ran for president as a segregationist and then promptly switched to the republican party because their racial philosophy was closer to his...only after fathering a black child on the way). There were racist democrats, there were racist republicans. Forget left and right if you want. The republican party carries the south routinely. Hey...what a coincidence. NOT. Maybe it's because of the profound philosophy of the rural whites who voted republican about 80-20 in presidential elections, ya think? Because there's no way it could be racism, subtle or otherwise, right? The republican party has opposed civil rights for gays, is opposed to granting a path to citizenship to specific minorities, quotas, equal opportunity...tell me, are you seeing a pattern here? I am. What I'm not saying is that all republicans are racist. In fact, I would venture to say that relatively few on this board are. What I am saying is that without coddling racists and their ideas, and handily collecting their votes, the republican party would lose every election. Do you doubt that? Do you really think there are similar numbers of racists in each party? I don't.
    I don't know.
    Maybe washing a car at home, by hand, IS more efficient than going to a car wash that uses well water.

    They use the same dirty water over and over again, thus (basically) forcing you to get the car washed more often.

    That's not very "green", is it?

    If you clean your car by hand with your own water (thus using "cleaner" water), you really shouldn't have to wash it as often now, should you?
  8. #248  
    @dbd

    wuh?
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    #249  
    Thread closed by OP's request.
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