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  1. Speebs's Avatar
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    #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, I guess size matters to them. So, ask them. The difference between a "one room operation" and a mosque that serves 2,000 people and has a restaurant, community center and bookstore is huge.
    It's not a mosque with a community center, restaurant, library, etc. It's a community center, restaurant, library, with a mosque (prayer room). Anyway, can you explain the "huge" difference to me? Why does it matter how much space it takes up, especially if you can't even tell from the outside? Are you afraid of a lot of muslims being in one place together??
  2. #142  
    Most people that don't live in NYC don't even realize that the location of the Mosque is not even near the WTC!

    The news media is not really let everyone know exactly how far the proposed site is from the WTC

    If not even close!

    I had my parent visit me last week and they were totally against the building of the Mosque until I took them down to the WTC and then we walked blocks away from the building of the new tower and they were dumbfounded by how far it was from the actual WTC.

    So before you talk about how against you are to building a religious institution, which there are several churches closer to the WTC than this proposed site is located, take a walk down there and see how far away it is from the WTC.

    Remember, there were about 400 killed in the WTC crash that were Moslin themselves, and all the terrorists on those planes were from Saudi Arabia, not Iraq, not Afghanistan!

    Remember, the closed all the airports down so nobody got out of the country, but Bush got Osama Bin Laden's family out secretly.

    It's really funny how FACTS get in the way.

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  3. ses2017's Avatar
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    #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I think discussion should be heard. If what they say is true about their motives, they would really want to hear what the community, their own community, and country at large thinks. Don't you think?



    Yep, it sure does. I've never said differently. By the way, it's two blocks from ground zero and close enough for the existing building to be severely damaged by the attacks. If it matters.



    If they're really concerned about bettering relations, yes, there should be justification. I think this is bad for relations and I think public opinion polling proves it. What this plan shows is that America is a tolerant country and cares about the rule of law. It says nothing positive about Islam. Is that the message they want to put forward?



    That makes no difference to me. He's also the same guy who said the US was "an accessory to the crime that happened" on 9/11 and that OBL is "made in the USA". You may agree with those sentiments but you have to admit that they are quite provocative for a "bridge-builder".



    When someone wants to infringe on anyone else's right to assemble--regardless of the religion--I'll be right with you. I have precious little time to debate the arguments I really want to make. I have to draw the line at debating arguments people falsely attribute to me.
    The presentation I saw stated 5 blocks away from Ground Zero, at an out of business Burlington Coat Factory building. I also watched a number of the Fox News idiots report the story using phrasing such at "at Ground Zero", "the site of the Twin Towers", etc.
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinn35 View Post
    the difference is the kkk wouldn't have done it because the baptist church said to. Like I stated before they hate us americans because some muslims are tought that we are the infidel and we must die. Not that all forms of islam teach that but some do.
    actually, they hate americans because from their perspective, we support policies and countries that directly oppose and interfere with their way of life. that their definition of infidel. it means more than just 'non-believer'.

    and you're point is a moot one. the kkk is run by bapist religious leaders who used the church to motivate members to perform acts of terrorism a against a group of people who 'threatend their way of life'.

    the parallels are strong. the only difference here is that you only apply your ethics when its convienient.
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by ses2017 View Post
    The presentation I saw stated 5 blocks away from Ground Zero, at an out of business Burlington Coat Factory building. I also watched a number of the Fox News idiots report the story using phrasing such at "at Ground Zero", "the site of the Twin Towers", etc.
    Remember that there is no official definition of "ground zero". It could be considered to be just the footprint of the twin towers. It could also be considered to include all the other buildings in the WTC complex, it could be considered all the buildings that sustained damage. That means it could be a radius of few hundred yards to several blocks... depending on what you are referring to...
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  6. groovy's Avatar
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    #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by rlanza1054 View Post
    Most people that don't live in NYC don't even realize that the location of the Mosque is not even near the WTC!

    The news media is not really let everyone know exactly how far the proposed site is from the WTC

    If not even close!
    Quote Originally Posted by ses2017 View Post
    The presentation I saw stated 5 blocks away from Ground Zero, at an out of business Burlington Coat Factory building. I also watched a number of the Fox News idiots report the story using phrasing such at "at Ground Zero", "the site of the Twin Towers", etc.
    Okay, here are the facts:

    Park51 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Cordoba House, also referred to as the "Ground Zero mosque" and "Park51", is a planned $100 million, 13-story, glass and steel Islamic community center, which will include a mosque, a 500-seat auditorium, a swimming pool, a restaurant, and a bookstore. The center also aims to provide space for Friday prayers for 1,000–2,000 Muslims. The proposed Cordoba House would replace an existing 1850s Italianate building that was damaged in the September 11 attacks, located two blocks (about 600 feet, or 180 meters) from Ground Zero in New York City.
    Emphasis mine. This Wikipedia article has copious links if anyone cares to read up on this.
  7. groovy's Avatar
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    #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan I Ezor View Post
    Your point is fair enough, with regard to the number of potential worshipers. As for bigotry, I was not saying that all opponents were expressing bigotry, but that clear bigotry is present in many of the statements about the "motives" and "plans" of Cordoba that are unsupported by any hint of a fact. {Jonathan}
    Well, I guess I'm confused how one can "cultivate and embrace neighborly relations between all New Yorkers" while at the same time build a facility that 53% of New Yorkers oppose. Is it fair to say that such an action might make people doubt the sincerity of the stated goals?
  8. Speebs's Avatar
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    #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by Speebs View Post
    It's not a mosque with a community center, restaurant, library, etc. It's a community center, restaurant, library, with a mosque (prayer room). Anyway, can you explain the "huge" difference to me? Why does it matter how much space it takes up, especially if you can't even tell from the outside? Are you afraid of a lot of muslims being in one place together??
    Do you care to answer this? Despite what the media says, according to the project's own website this is not going to be some megamosque.

    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, I guess I'm confused how one can "cultivate and embrace neighborly relations between all New Yorkers" while at the same time build a facility that 53% of New Yorkers oppose. Is it fair to say that such an action might make people doubt the sincerity of the stated goals?
    Maybe they sincerely believe that once it is built, everyone will be able to enjoy it, and they are actually doing a service to the community. You know, because they know what it is actually going to be. Just because lots of people oppose it (roughly half, by your number, which doesn't say a lot to me), that doesn't make those people right or mean that the project should be scrapped. Maybe they are 100% confident that the benefit to neighborly relations after it is in use will far outweigh this initial opposition. Won't you feel stupid if in 2 years everyone changes their mind and decides the Cordoba house is the greatest thing since sliced bread because it is offering all these things to the community (a community with a shortage of all the things it is offering)?
  9. #149  
    I know I now feel better about the mosque now that Hamas has come out in favor of it. That basically seals the deal for me as it being on the up and up.
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  10. #150  
    I think what a lot of conservatives are forgetting is that we were not attacked by Muslims or the Muslim religion. What we were attacked by was Al Qaeda members, who happen to be Muslim. Huge difference. Going after the building of this Muslim center because of what extremist sect of the religion did is like going after the entire Christian religion for what the Westboro Baptist Church does at our soldiers funerals. If you are for the banning of this Muslim center, then I guess you should also be for the banning of all Catholic churches built around schools full of children...
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  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    I think what a lot of conservatives are forgetting is that we were not attacked by Muslims or the Muslim religion. What we were attacked by was Al Qaeda members, who happen to be Muslim. Huge difference. Going after the building of this Muslim center because of what extremist sect of the religion did is like going after the entire Christian religion for what the Westboro Baptist Church does at our soldiers funerals. If you are for the banning of this Muslim center, then I guess you should also be for the banning of all Catholic churches built around schools full of children...
    I don't think anyone here has suggested that it be banned. However, some of us just think it reflects poor judgement...
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  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    I don't think anyone here has suggested that it be banned. However, some of us just think it reflects poor judgement...
    Well, some of us also feel that blaming an entire religion for the actions of a few extremists reflects poor judgement as well...
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  13. #153  
    when the extremists opinion dominate...
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Well, some of us also feel that blaming an entire religion for the actions of a few extremists reflects poor judgement as well...
    You must not have been actually reading the posts. No one is blaming a religion. You might want to relax a bit...
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  15. #155  
    Since 1922, St. Nicholas Church had stood as a quiet sanctuary of prayer and reflection amidst the tumultuous and bustling crossroads of commerce. For the past nine years the Port Authority of New York/New Jersey has used bureaucratic obstacles and false promises to hinder the rebuilding of the St. Nicholas Church.

    This must end and it must end now!

    What an outrage that our government has put roadblocks in the path of its own citizens trying to rebuild their beloved church destroyed by Islamic extremists, while Saudi Arabia, a nation that prohibits people from even wearing a cross or the Star of David, now provokes the families of those who lost loved ones by apparently funneling money to build a mosque at the same location.
    Mission:Before building a Mosque at Ground Zero, let's first rebuild the St. Nicholas Church, the only house of worship destroyed on 9-11.
    Rebuild St. Nicholas Church at Ground Zero First | Facebook


    hmmmm interesting
  16. #156  
    Is there any actual documentation that says that Saudi Arabia or any other country is funding the Park51 project? There is certainly lots of supposition, but again, absent facts, it's unfair to draw any conclusions.

    For that matter, speaking of facts, here is the actual location of the planned project (51 Park Place, hence the name):

    http://j.mp/dlFnWA

    Note that it's close to a lot of things in Lower Manhattan, including the St. John's campus there, City Hall and Park Row. (Oh noes! J&R Music World is a target!) Lower Manhattan is cramped; that's just how it is, and has been since the area was colonized in the 1600s. {Jonathan}
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  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I have found it interesting that the left has repeatedly invoked and referenced the Constitution to defend the right for this group to build thier mosque. They usually invoke it while arguing against religious groups interests and expression. Perhaps it's just because these are muslim's in this case, and not christians?
    i could give a rats **** about religion one way or the other, I just find it funny that the conservatives here are "suggesting" that this should not happen.. i do apologize for misreading the faux news poll,, i was wrong..
    however,, it is funny that your constitution says freedom of religion, and several here, who have jumped up and down demanding the constitution be honored etc etc.. now are "suggesting" that because of a Majority ( does the phrase, " tyranny of the majority" ring any bells ) of Americans are against this prayer room. just making an obseravation is all.. I will repeat, though from an earlier post, if it was actually at ground zero it is in bad taste. however, it is about 5 blocks away.. sooooo not at ground zero by any stretch..
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  18. #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by sketch42 View Post
    hmmmm interesting
    hmmm i gotta agree,, it seems umm some what ummm twisted,, but then again, i am all for the abolition of all religious buildings, and heck all religions, bann em all.. would solve a lot of our problems.. lol Long live Mao.. and his little red book..lol kidding, maybe.
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  19. #159  
    I don't agree that the location is "not" at ground zero.
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  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    I don't agree that the location is "not" at ground zero.
    Are all of these also *at* Ground Zero? Where would you draw that boundary? {Jonathan}
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