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  1. jwinn35's Avatar
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    #121  
    I didn't say anything about forgeting they existed and if they tried to rise again wed smack em down again.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinn35 View Post
    I didn't say anything about forgeting they existed and if they tried to rise again wed smack em down again.
    You said
    ummm the national socialist movement was pretty much wiped out and arrent really around anymore, and whens the last time a kkk member flew a plane into the wtc or cut someones head off on tv, or threatened to use a wmd?
    Basically ignoring my point that there are evil groups of people across EVERY race, nation, and gender we can't just say that since most of the terrorists we are fighting now are Muslim (though they wouldn't be practicing Islam even if they think they are) that we can demonize an entire religion and culture to the point of it not being seen as welcome or even to the point of it being evil.
  3. jwinn35's Avatar
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    #123  
    I agree with you cause like I said "christians" and "muslims" that do these things are following a false doctrine cause the scriptures are taken out of context to promote violence.
  4. groovy's Avatar
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    #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Actually, do you think they should have a voice in determining what goes where?
    I think discussion should be heard. If what they say is true about their motives, they would really want to hear what the community, their own community, and country at large thinks. Don't you think?

    Honestly? It's a private transaction that is taking place blocks away from Ground Zero, and the fact is that even if it was next door, the constitution protects their right to do exactly what they are doing.
    Yep, it sure does. I've never said differently. By the way, it's two blocks from ground zero and close enough for the existing building to be severely damaged by the attacks. If it matters.

    "Concerns"? Much of those "concerns" in this thread have been people equating Islam with terrorism. Not necessarily you, but you have expressed the feeling that there has to be "justification" for it being built where it's being planned.
    If they're really concerned about bettering relations, yes, there should be justification. I think this is bad for relations and I think public opinion polling proves it. What this plan shows is that America is a tolerant country and cares about the rule of law. It says nothing positive about Islam. Is that the message they want to put forward?

    Taste? Some people might think it's a good idea to allow peaceful Muslims to do this. As I recall the leader of this group actually worked with the previous administration.
    That makes no difference to me. He's also the same guy who said the US was "an accessory to the crime that happened" on 9/11 and that OBL is "made in the USA". You may agree with those sentiments but you have to admit that they are quite provocative for a "bridge-builder".

    And for the same reason that you have no say, neither do those Muslims who think this is a bad idea. If this were some other issue having to do with infringement of rights granted by the constitution, for instance regarding Christians losing their right to assemble, you'd be taking the opposite side in an instant.
    When someone wants to infringe on anyone else's right to assemble--regardless of the religion--I'll be right with you. I have precious little time to debate the arguments I really want to make. I have to draw the line at debating arguments people falsely attribute to me.
  5. #125  
    without reading the whole thread, Obama is damned if he did damned if he didnt. lets face it, if he didnt come out on it, the repubs would be slamming him, the fact that he is upholding the much vaunted constitution he is being slammed.. i dont get it.. is this just a witch hunt in the guise of an election run up.. ?? naw couldnt be..
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  6. #126  
    After all of the debating it still comes down to this.
    Attachment 50388
    Last edited by switchedgear; 09/18/2010 at 12:42 PM.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by AOW View Post
    dear ill-informed sheeple, There has been a mosque within 4 blocks of ground zero for more than 40yrs. Said mosque actually PRE-dates the twin towers.
    I believe there are many, many mosque's in NY, that isn't the point dear ill-informed sheeple. As I said in my original post, I don't refute their "right" to build it there, but if their goal was to build good will, they would see the many other locations they could build their place of worship and do it elsewhere to show that their religion is one of compassion and understanding. Instead, they seem so intent on building at that location as if to make a point of their own, and I don't think it is a very nice point.
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  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    That makes no difference to me. He's also the same guy who said the US was "an accessory to the crime that happened" on 9/11 and that OBL is "made in the USA". You may agree with those sentiments but you have to admit that they are quite provocative for a "bridge-builder".
    I believe this same guy, the guy going around trying to sell this project to the world, believes in "sharia law" (sp?). Now, I don't know all that is in this sharia law, but from what I've heard, it basically makes women lower than scum and allows their husbands/fathers (might as well call them their master) to do whatever they want if they fail to live up to their expectations. Now, it appears there are different levels of this law and some seem to follow it and some don't, but I believe the guy pushing this (sorry, didn't have time to search his name) is on record as saying he believe in sharia law. I'd be interested in knowing exactly what he agrees with and what he disagrees with regarding this belief....it might help.

    Another thing that I find fascinating is that the same person that will attack Christianity when one nut job goes out and kills in the name of God, seems to take a different view when terrorists kill in the name of their religion. We are told not to make that connection between terrorists and other peaceful and loving Muslims. Yet, these same people love to lump all Christians together as being crazy nuts. And while I am on record as saying they certainly have the right to build there, I wonder how many of the same people who are fighting for this right has opposed people putting up a cross or other religious symbol somewhere else. It just doesn't alway seem to be equal for some reason....go figure.
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  9. #129  
    lets see whqt they say if a jewish synagogue gets built across the street...
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  10. #130  
    Some polling has come out against it, some (faux news) say the majority are for it, 61%, which poll are you reffering to??
    i think the location is in bad taste, as to the building being 2 blocks away but recieved a lot of damage, so did a lot of other buildings in the same area. Still it kind of rankles.. but it is a right.. much like other things south of me.. that raise my ire at times.
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  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    Some polling has come out against it, some (faux news) say the majority are for it, 61%, which poll are you reffering to??
    i think the location is in bad taste, as to the building being 2 blocks away but recieved a lot of damage, so did a lot of other buildings in the same area. Still it kind of rankles.. but it is a right.. much like other things south of me.. that raise my ire at times.
    Having some issues with my computer and searching, quite annoying, but go check out the CNN poll on the subject, I believe the polls are pretty similar. The majority seem to feel it is within their "right" to put it there, but the majority also believe they (muslims) should not put it there.

    And yep, I agree, lot of things down here been raising my "ire" lately as well...although...why do I think they are different from what annoys you?
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  12. groovy's Avatar
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    #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    Some polling has come out against it, some (faux news) say the majority are for it, 61%, which poll are you reffering to??
    i think the location is in bad taste, as to the building being 2 blocks away but recieved a lot of damage, so did a lot of other buildings in the same area. Still it kind of rankles.. but it is a right.. much like other things south of me.. that raise my ire at times.
    This poll says 68% oppose. Now, as a lot of people will tell you, including Daily Kos, that means they personally oppose it but does not address whether the government should intervene. But, it seems to me there are a lot of people on the Right saying this is in poor taste, it shouldn't be done but not that it shouldn't be allowed. Then there are people on the Left who are saying people who oppose it are bigots and it's their right to build it. So, as usual, everyone is shouting over one another and totally missing--deliberately or otherwise--the others' point.

    So, let me make my stance clear--it is legally allowed. It should not be blocked on any basis that isn't legal and Constitutional. I firmly believe that. BUT, the backers should reconsider if they really want to strengthen American-Islamic relations. If they continue, what they're doing is, in my opinion, acting in bad faith and will ultimately be viewed as obstinate and belligerent by a large number of people. It will be bad for relations. As I said before, a memorial would accomplish their stated goal. Let the sprawling mega-mosque be built in Tribeca or SoHo--nobody will give a hoot.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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    #133  
    I have found it interesting that the left has repeatedly invoked and referenced the Constitution to defend the right for this group to build thier mosque. They usually invoke it while arguing against religious groups interests and expression. Perhaps it's just because these are muslim's in this case, and not christians?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. groovy's Avatar
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    #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I believe this same guy, the guy going around trying to sell this project to the world, believes in "sharia law" (sp?). Now, I don't know all that is in this sharia law, but from what I've heard, it basically makes women lower than scum and allows their husbands/fathers (might as well call them their master) to do whatever they want if they fail to live up to their expectations. Now, it appears there are different levels of this law and some seem to follow it and some don't, but I believe the guy pushing this (sorry, didn't have time to search his name) is on record as saying he believe in sharia law. I'd be interested in knowing exactly what he agrees with and what he disagrees with regarding this belief....it might help.
    Of course he believes in sharia. The question is what brand of sharia. As a Sufi, he may or may not have a strict interpretation of sharia law--including whether or not it applies to non-Muslims. Regarding women, the poor treatment of women in Islamic countries is generally considered a byproduct of traditional tribal values and not technically sharia law. Although sometimes the two get mixed up quite a bit. However, that doesn't mean women have all the rights of men. Women can only have one husband, whereas men can have up to four wives (again, historically men have had many, many more wives but this is not technically allowed under sharia law). Also, men can divorce women by a verbal declaration but women can only divorce men by buying out their dowry--essentially prohibiting the practice in most cases. This all varies depending on the school of jurisprudence.

    Another thing that I find fascinating is that the same person that will attack Christianity when one nut job goes out and kills in the name of God, seems to take a different view when terrorists kill in the name of their religion. We are told not to make that connection between terrorists and other peaceful and loving Muslims. Yet, these same people love to lump all Christians together as being crazy nuts. And while I am on record as saying they certainly have the right to build there, I wonder how many of the same people who are fighting for this right has opposed people putting up a cross or other religious symbol somewhere else. It just doesn't alway seem to be equal for some reason....go figure.
    True. Now, those people would say the difference is that one is a question religious liberty and the other is a question of state support for religion. That difference, of course, does not explain the fervency with which they support one religion's rights over the others'. The answer to that question is, in my opinion, the old Leftist notion that the party with the power, perceived or otherwise, is the party in error.
  15. #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    <snip>
    So, let me make my stance clear--it is legally allowed. It should not be blocked on any basis that isn't legal and Constitutional. I firmly believe that. BUT, the backers should reconsider if they really want to strengthen American-Islamic relations. If they continue, what they're doing is, in my opinion, acting in bad faith and will ultimately be viewed as obstinate and belligerent by a large number of people. It will be bad for relations. As I said before, a memorial would accomplish their stated goal. Let the sprawling mega-mosque be built in Tribeca or SoHo--nobody will give a hoot.
    Um, what "sprawling mega-mosque"? Have you actually looked at the Cordoba Initiative's plans for Park51? The ones where the project is described as including:

    * outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)
    * a 500-seat auditorium
    * a restaurant and culinary school
    * cultural amenities including exhibitions
    * education programs
    * a library, reading room and art studios
    * childcare services
    * a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community
    * a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all
    For that matter, which parts of the mission statement for the Park51 project do you perceive as objectionable?

    New York deserves its reputation as a peerless center of arts, culture and ideas. Park51 honors and furthers that tradition, envisioning a community center for all of us, bringing the best of the world to New York City, and New York City’s energy, diversity and aspirations to the world. Park51 will become a model for future institutions, with its inclusive focus, outstanding facilities and dedication to social needs. To realize this mission, Park51 will:

    * Uphold respect for the diversity of expression and ideas between all people
    * Cultivate and embrace neighborly relations between all New Yorkers, fostering a spirit of civic participation and an awareness of common needs and opportunities
    * Encourage open discussion and dialogue on issues of relevance to New Yorkers, Americans and the international reality of our interconnected planet
    * Revive the historic Muslim tradition of education, engagement and service, becoming a resource for empowerment and advancement
    * Connect New York’s communities to global ideas and trends
    * Commit to social justice, dignified human development and spiritual growth for all
    * Pursue the development of American Muslim identities, engaging New York’s many and diverse Muslim communities and promoting empowerment and compassion for all
    * Build partnerships and relationships with key actors and institutions who share our values, to address shared needs and solve common problems
    * Establish a state-of-the-art green facility that will serve as a model and inspiration for sustainable space, helping to advance sustainable living in urban contexts
    * Empower our communities with the skills and knowledge they need to advance in their various life stages
    * Provide financial assistance for those in need, offering subsidies for our programming and scholarships to reach new audiences and further our vision
    What do you think the polls would have said if the question asked, "Do you oppose the plans for Muslim New Yorkers to build a gym, culinary school, art studios and auditorium in the Lower Manhattan neighborhood where they live and work, midway between City Hall and the former World Trade Center site, with a space reserved for public religious worship?" That's a much more accurate depiction of what's really being proposed, and where it would be built.

    These are the facts. These are the public statements. Everything else is supposition at best, and bigotry at worst, and sad. {Jonathan}
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  16. groovy's Avatar
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    #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan I Ezor View Post
    Um, what "sprawling mega-mosque"? Have you actually looked at the Cordoba Initiative's plans for Park51? The ones where the project is described as including:
    In common parlance, the term "megachurch" is used for churches that hold 2,000 or more attendees every week. The mosque at the Cordoba House is supposed to hold 2,000 attendees every week. I'm sorry if the phrase offended you.
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan I Ezor View Post
    These are the facts. These are the public statements. Everything else is supposition at best, and bigotry at worst, and sad. {Jonathan}
    And yet you miss the point totally. As Groovy, myself, and many others including the polls have said, it is certainly within their right to build this. However, I believe (and apparently a very large percentage of people as well) that it would be better if they did it else where. Are you saying there is no other place they could build this building of unity that you described? If they were really interested in "Cultivating and embracing neighborly relations" (point #2 in your list) and basically showing how wonderful the religion of Islam is, then wouldn't they gain a huge advantage by saying that "we understand how delicate this issue is, and out of respect for those that lost loved ones we will build our mosque elsewhere to show we are truly open to building goodwill and showing the real side of Islam." Now, that would make a statement and they would be able to accomplish all the wonderful things you oulined in the mission statement. It would be a "win/win" for everyone.
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  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    In common parlance, the term "megachurch" is used for churches that hold 2,000 or more attendees every week. The mosque at the Cordoba House is supposed to hold 2,000 attendees every week. I'm sorry if the phrase offended you. I hope it was not as offensive as the continued use of the term "bigotry" when speaking of people who have concerns about this plan.
    Your point is fair enough, with regard to the number of potential worshipers. As for bigotry, I was not saying that all opponents were expressing bigotry, but that clear bigotry is present in many of the statements about the "motives" and "plans" of Cordoba that are unsupported by any hint of a fact. {Jonathan}
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  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    And yet you miss the point totally. As Groovy, myself, and many others including the polls have said, it is certainly within their right to build this. However, I believe (and apparently a very large percentage of people as well) that it would be better if they did it else where. Are you saying there is no other place they could build this building of unity that you described? If they were really interested in "Cultivating and embracing neighborly relations" (point #2 in your list) and basically showing how wonderful the religion of Islam is, then wouldn't they gain a huge advantage by saying that "we understand how delicate this issue is, and out of respect for those that lost loved ones we will build our mosque elsewhere to show we are truly open to building goodwill and showing the real side of Islam." Now, that would make a statement and they would be able to accomplish all the wonderful things you oulined in the mission statement. It would be a "win/win" for everyone.
    I hardly miss the point. I just disagree with the premise. To force or even ask the Cordoba Initiative to move away from its own community based on perceived association with evil men who happened to share some version of their religion is hardly a "win/win" for Cordoba or the values Americans are supposed to cherish.

    How far away is far enough? How far away must these New Yorkers go from their own community to congregate and even worship before it's acceptable? How far from the World Trade Center site is sufficiently respectful for a Muslim congregation to meet? What about Murfreesboro, Tenn.? Sheboygan, Wisconsin? Temecula, California? Apparently not for some.

    As a modern Orthodox Jewish person, I would not want my fellow modern Orthodox Jews to be blocked from building a community center with an attached synagogue in Hebron because a radical extremist named Baruch Goldstein murdered Muslims in a mosque nearby. He, like the Al Qaeda terrorists on 9/11, followed a distorted view of a religious tradition into a monstrous action. Those of us who condemn him, and those Muslims who condemn the 9/11 attacks (like the organizers of the Park51 project), deserve better than to be blamed for or associated with those heinous crimes. {Jonathan}
    Prof. Jonathan I. Ezor
    Writer, PreCentral
    Past Palm Real Reviewer
    @webOSquire on Twitter
  20. #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    lets see whqt they say if a jewish synagogue gets built across the street...
    Haha, yeah, i would love to hear that!
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