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  1. #101  
    This is not a matter of freedom of religion, unless there is tenant of Islam that necessitates building on this particular plat. At best, the only Constitutional concern is one of the use of ones private property.

    And for the record, the 1st Amendment's 1st concern is freedom FROM religion.
  2. #102  
    it isn't freedom 'from' religion. Re-read the constitution...

    it's preventing the govt from establishing a state religion like england did.

    but you are correct that this is more of a private property issue, unless the zoning process was used to promote a religion...
  3. #103  
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion....
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion....
    that means they won't establish a religion, not that they will protrct you FROM religion.
  5. #105  
    Not protecting me, protecting the union.
  6. #106  
    either way, it's not protecting you FROM, it's preventing the govt from creating a state church as henry the 8th did.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tedcas View Post
    this Google map is the clearest I could find.
    [url= House - Google Maps[/url]
    It's two blocks away. The Cordoba House is 12 stories high, and in front of it in those two blocks are a 16 story building that occupies the whole block, and another 14 story building. If you zoom in to the Street View, you'll see that there is no way that the Cordoba House can be seen unless you're on that block. I do suppose that you may see the roof if you are in a higher building and looking for it...
    Because i'm married, and don't get to watch as much news as i would like , i didn't know the exact spot it would be built in.

    I originally was under the impression that it would be at the edge of Ground Zero, but according to that map, it's not.

    I've walked those streets many times, and i have to reluctantly, but honestly say (i say "reluctantly" because i had almost a dozen friends that didn't survive the attack), that i don't think that location would feel like a slap in the face to me.

    It really would be out of the line-of-vision from the ground. If you see it from above while you're in the new tower, well, you'll probably see dozens or hundreds of mosques from up above. Half of them right across the East River.

    I don't know what else to say.
    I just wish we would rebuild quicker, to show them we could take a hit and bounce back stronger-
    but now we're more divided than ever before.

    THAT's what they wanted to do to us.
    Divide and conquer. The 3000+ deaths on American soil? That was just gravy to them.

    Looks like it's working.
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 08/15/2010 at 02:39 PM.
  8. mdavis113's Avatar
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    #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    yep, that's what I said. I say it's an inconsiderate move, and the response is that I hate all muslims and want them in camps like the japanese americans after WWII. Ya, I'd call that hyperbole and jumping to conclusions, and over reacting.

    do you have a better term for that?
    After the Bombing of Pearl Harbor the government responded with measures whose effect targeted individuals due to ethnic background. After 9/11 the government responded with measures whose effect targeted individuals due to ethnic background. Hyperbole? Up until 1914 my maternal great-great grandfather's last name was Hess. I guess Matthews had a better ring to it.
  9. #109  
    and I never suggested that was ok, or relevant.
  10. mdavis113's Avatar
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    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    and I never suggested that was ok, or relevant.
    Fair enough. I apologize for how awkwardly I was stating my opinion.
  11. #111  
    TYVM
  12. #112  
    don't feed the troll, pls
  13. groovy's Avatar
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    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    There you go. There are right-wing Muslims too who seem to echo your sentiments. Why paint them all with one brush? Of course, I doubt there are many other Muslims that agree with them, and they live in Canada.

    You are losing this discussion badly. Complaining about the size of the effort, asking about alternative memorials, trying to find excuses to justify why this is any of your business at all, painting all Muslims as extremists, using the KKK as an example (if so, then all Christians are responsible for the the KKK has done), backing off by claiming it's an issue of "taste"...the fact is you are arguing against freedom of religion, private commerce, and many other perspectives you would argue for in any other situation. Really...you should give it up.
    I think you should reread the thread--or at least the points I was trying to make--and you will find where you are mistaken.
  14. groovy's Avatar
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    #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis113 View Post
    The OP was about POTUS's comments last Friday... "Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country."

    "That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," Obama said.

    As one who has taken an oath with language similar to the Presidential Oath of Office "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" there is no question how one would side in this issue and remain faithful to this oath.

    All the OP does is contribute to the 'white noise' that prevents very valid questions from being raised and discussed. It took four pages of debating before you brought the focus on an issue and an advocate (Raheel Raza) whose opinions and concerns I share.
    EDIT: (my first post was a little harsh) First, I wasn't around for the first three pages of the debate. Second, my point was never that they should or shouldn't be "allowed" to build it but that there are valid concerns about the symbolism of it all. I also doubt the sincerity of the plans backer's claim that this is intended to be a "bride" for American-Islamic relations. Perhaps they mean a one-way bridge.

    No, I don't believe we limit it to religious affiliation :wink:
    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree since neither of us knows for sure. But, I do think its unfair to Japanese-Americans and to the memory of what happened.
    Last edited by groovy; 08/15/2010 at 03:46 PM.
  15. groovy's Avatar
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    #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    There you go. There are right-wing Muslims too who seem to echo your sentiments. Why paint them all with one brush? Of course, I doubt there are many other Muslims that agree with them, and they live in Canada.
    By the way, do people who have concerns about this not have a voice? If they try to voice concerns they get labeled racist/bigot/coward. If they show that several Muslims have the same concern, those people get labeled "right-wing" (as if that's any sort of argument) and dismissed out of hand.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    By the way, do people who have concerns about this not have a voice? If they try to voice concerns they get labeled racist/bigot/coward. If they show that several Muslims have the same concern, those people get labeled "right-wing" (as if that's any sort of argument) and dismissed out of hand.
    Actually, do you think they should have a voice in determining what goes where? Honestly? It's a private transaction that is taking place blocks away from Ground Zero, and the fact is that even if it was next door, the constitution protects their right to do exactly what they are doing. "Concerns"? Much of those "concerns" in this thread have been people equating Islam with terrorism. Not necessarily you, but you have expressed the feeling that there has to be "justification" for it being built where it's being planned. Taste? Some people might think it's a good idea to allow peaceful Muslims to do this. As I recall the leader of this group actually worked with the previous administration. And for the same reason that you have no say, neither do those Muslims who think this is a bad idea. If this were some other issue having to do with infringement of rights granted by the constitution, for instance regarding Christians losing their right to assemble, you'd be taking the opposite side in an instant. Does that mean you're racist? Nope, not at all, and you have never expressed a racist tone that I remember. But there is such a thing as political hypocrisy.
  17. #117  
    these words somehow ring a bell...










    Hiroshima Today


    US Embassies in Japan

    • Japan: Tokyo
    • Japan: Fukuoka
    • Japan: Nagoya
    • Japan: Osaka/Kobe
    • Japan: Sapporo
    • Japan: Naha, Okinawa

    Somehow i think that the american govt has common sense enough NOT to build one in Hiroshima or Nagasaki wether they are needed there or Not


    EDIT: Oh and btw NOT all Americans Believed we should have dropped the bomb on them... but yet common sense prevails .... 65 years later
  18. #118  
    I feel like this needs to be mentioned Mosque in Tenessee? It seems like even if the Mosque was going to be built just about anywhere someone would have a problem with it
  19. jwinn35's Avatar
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    #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by 063_xobx View Post
    Not all Christians were N-a-z-i-s, but almost all N-a-z-i-s are Christian so what are we supposed to do?

    Same for KKK
    ummm the national socialist movement was pretty much wiped out and arrent really around anymore, and whens the last time a kkk member flew a plane into the wtc or cut someones head off on tv, or threatened to use a wmd? In other words we fought back against evil ****s and evil kkk, so might as well fight back against evil "muslim" extremest just like we fought back against evil "christian" extremist. I put it in quotes because obviously terror is not part of either religion when it is properly doctrined.
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinn35 View Post
    ummm the national socialist movement was pretty much wiped out and arrent really around anymore, and whens the last time a kkk member flew a plane into the wtc or cut someones head off on tv, or threatened to use a wmd?
    So if an evil organization isn't active or is destroyed we should forget they existed?

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