Page 4 of 22 FirstFirst 12345678914 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 423
  1. lupos's Avatar
    Posts
    276 Posts
    Global Posts
    289 Global Posts
    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Holding views about the necessity and goodness of religious liberty does not preclude the recognition that the plans for this mosque, in this location, are not in the best taste.
    Political correctness is for politicians and people with no conviction. The ven-diagram for those two items would look like a breast with a nipple for reference. Taste is not what is at issue. Preventing a religious institution from being built because of a grudge against people who had something in common with the would be builders is bigotry and is genially considered poor taste no matter what the location. At least in "civilized" world.
  2. Speebs's Avatar
    Posts
    297 Posts
    Global Posts
    403 Global Posts
    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    A smaller, less intrusive government would preclude the President getting involved in a "local issue". As regards this mosque, there is no large local Islamic presence in the area to justify it, so far as I know. Why do it in the first place if it's not purely symbolic? And if it is symbolic, then any talk of the symbolism of letting a mosque be built near Ground Zero, either for or against, is apropos.
    You are wrong. There is a huge Muslim community there already (which is why there have been other mosques there for 40+ years). In fact, this morning I read that the reason they need a bigger building is because their current building is too small and there is already overflow. Keep in mind that it's a community center, open to all, that also includes a mosque, and is in a building surrounded by 50+ story buildings. If it weren't for all this publicity, nobody would have ever even known it was there. The media is hyping it as a mosque and it is not.

    To those who keep saying "why there?" This is New York City. It's not as though they can just buy up a parcel of land wherever they want and build whatever they want. They found a suitable building in the neighborhood of their community, and want to convert an existing building. If you have a building you'd like to sell them in midtown, go ahead and offer it to them.

    Does anyone realize that there is a mosque in the Pentagon, and they started praying there only a month after 9/11? Is that a problem too?
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    try this. Someone from the house next to yours rapes your sister, kills your mother, while you watch.

    when he goes to prison, they paint a lifesize mural of the murderer and his 'aledged' victims (your mom and sister) on the garage door. In big letters it says 'we weren't involved'.

    you have to drive by that every day. No neighborhood covenant so it's legal. Freedom of speech says it is legal.

    but do you drive by with a smile? Do you think it's just a little bit rude?

    it might be legal, but is doesn't show much class
    Your entire point is based on Islam itself being responsible for 9/11. It was not. You are labeling anything Muslim = terrorist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    how dare you compare a brave action in the name of civil rights with asking for tollerance for those that share their faith with such an evil event. What a slap on the fave that is.
    How dare I compare one kind of discrimination to another!

    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    no, my point was that he shouldn't compare an insensitive choice of location with an act of bravery that changed history.

    seems pretty simple. That sort of equivocation should offend anyone that identifies with the civil right movement.
    Again you fail to see the wrong happening to these people because they are Muslim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    read post 41. that's a good analogy. it's not about islam. it's about honoring a significant point in out history and the people that it impacted. Same as what is behind a holocost memorial.

    How about if the KKK moves it's headquarters to the building next door to the Martin Luther King center in Atlanta. Or maybe they buy the hotel where he was killed and turn it in to a kkk amusement park.

    probably legal and protected by the constitution, but pretty bad PRPRPR, $and$ $pretty$ $hard$ $to$ $see$ $it$ $as$ $anything$ $other$ $than$ $a$ $poke$ $in$ $the$ $eye$. $I$'$m$ $not$ $saying$ $they$ $shouldn$'$t$ $be$ $allowed$ $to$, $I$'$m$ $saying$ $they$ $are$ $rediculous$ $for$ $wanting$ $to$.
    Again you are painting all Muslims with the same brush.
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
  4. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by Speebs View Post
    You are wrong. There is a huge Muslim community there already (which is why there have been other mosques there for 40+ years). In fact, this morning I read that the reason they need a bigger building is because their current building is too small and there is already overflow. Keep in mind that it's a community center, open to all, that also includes a mosque, and is in a building surrounded by 50+ story buildings. If it weren't for all this publicity, nobody would have ever even known it was there. The media is hyping it as a mosque and it is not.

    To those who keep saying "why there?" This is New York City. It's not as though they can just buy up a parcel of land wherever they want and build whatever they want. They found a suitable building in the neighborhood of their community, and want to convert an existing building. If you have a building you'd like to sell them in midtown, go ahead and offer it to them.

    Does anyone realize that there is a mosque in the Pentagon, and they started praying there only a month after 9/11? Is that a problem too?
    Where is the existing one? I wasn't aware there was anything of size in the area.
  5. mdavis113's Avatar
    Posts
    21 Posts
    Global Posts
    22 Global Posts
    #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Holding views about the necessity and goodness of religious liberty does not preclude the recognition that the plans for this mosque, in this location, are not in the best taste.
    The problem with your assertion is that it hinges on everyone holding the
    Muslim faith responsible for the acts perpetrated on 9/11. Not everyone does. So I do not view their plans as being in bad taste. There's actually a part of me that applauds them for standing up to the bigotry and refusing to be painted with the same bush. History has a way of repeating itself and they definitely don't want to be stereotyped like the Japanese Americans were after Pearl Harbor.
  6. mdavis113's Avatar
    Posts
    21 Posts
    Global Posts
    22 Global Posts
    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    Your entire point is based on Islam itself being responsible for 9/11. It was not. You are labeling anything Muslim = terrorist.



    How dare I compare one kind of discrimination to another!


    Again you fail to see the wrong happening to these people because they are Muslim.



    Again you are painting all Muslims with the same brush.
    From now on I'm going to see if you have made new post before I hit the submit button
  7. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis113 View Post
    The problem with your assertion is that it hinges on everyone holding the Muslim faith responsible for the acts perpetrated on 9/11. Not everyone does.
    Nor do I. Not by a long shot. But there needs to be some recognition of what ideology motivated the 9/11 attackers. Given that, perhaps a memorial built by Muslims to honor those who have fallen at the WTC is more fitting than a mosque. No?

    History has a way of repeating itself and they definitely don't want to be stereotyped like the Japanese Americans were after Pearl Harbor.
    I don't think comparing the treatment of Muslims with the treatment of Japanese-Americans during and following WWII is a fair analogy. Do you? Since you brought it up, I don't think it would have been in good taste to build an Imperial shrine in Pearl harbor either. Again, if they don't want to be stereotyped, perhaps a memorial is a better way to strengthen relations.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Where is the existing one? I wasn't aware there was anything of size in the area.
    "The Times goes on to note, “Both mosques — essentially one-room operations — routinely turn people away for lack of space.” And thus, the need for a new, larger location."

    Think Progress » Fox Hosts Agree With Obama’s Defense Of Mosque: ‘He Has To Stand Up For Our Constitution’

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/ny...sque.html?_r=1
    "Honest to the point of recklessness; self-centered in the extreme."
  9. Speebs's Avatar
    Posts
    297 Posts
    Global Posts
    403 Global Posts
    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by louwiid View Post
    "The Times goes on to note, “Both mosques — essentially one-room operations — routinely turn people away for lack of space.” And thus, the need for a new, larger location."

    Think Progress » Fox Hosts Agree With Obama’s Defense Of Mosque: ‘He Has To Stand Up For Our Constitution’

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/ny...sque.html?_r=1
    Thank you... I was just looking this info up.
  10. Speebs's Avatar
    Posts
    297 Posts
    Global Posts
    403 Global Posts
    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Where is the existing one? I wasn't aware there was anything of size in the area.
    Question... why does the size matter?
  11. mdavis113's Avatar
    Posts
    21 Posts
    Global Posts
    22 Global Posts
    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Nor do I. Not by a long shot. But there needs to be some recognition of what ideology motivated the 9/11 attackers. Given that, perhaps a memorial built by Muslims to honor those who have fallen at the WTC is more fitting than a mosque. No?
    I still fail to see where the Muslims are any more obliged to use their property for a WTC memorial than the Mormons? The ideology that motivated the attacks are universal... hate, fear, intolerance, etc. The objective was probably to propagate that ideology... mission accomplished

    I don't think comparing the treatment of Muslims with the treatment of Japanese-Americans during and following WWII is a fair analogy. Do you? Since you brought it up, I don't think it would have been in good taste to build an Imperial shrine in Pearl harbor either. Again, if they don't want to be stereotyped, perhaps a memorial is a better way to strengthen relations.
    What's not fair? If the internet and international phone service were available in the 1940's then there wouldn't have been the need for all those internment camps. They could have been held as 'virtual' prisoners. Probably would have been a better source of intel to boot.
  12. omi205's Avatar
    Posts
    41 Posts
    Global Posts
    52 Global Posts
    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbdoinit View Post
    Yeah, would they let us put a Baptist church anywhere in the MidEast?

    Doubt it.
    actually all throughout the middle east their are churches of all sects. just an fyi, there are many christian arabs. for the most part in jordan, syria, egypt, lebanon, and turkey.
  13. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Speebs View Post
    Question... why does the size matter?
    Well, I guess size matters to them. So, ask them. The difference between a "one room operation" and a mosque that serves 2,000 people and has a restaurant, community center and bookstore is huge.
  14. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by mdavis113 View Post
    I still fail to see where the Muslims are any more obliged to use their property for a WTC memorial than the Mormons? The ideology that motivated the attacks are universal... hate, fear, intolerance, etc. The objective was probably to propagate that ideology... mission accomplished
    These two express my concerns in a much better way than I can: Mischief in Manhattan

    What's not fair? If the internet and international phone service were available in the 1940's then there wouldn't have been the need for all those internment camps. They could have been held as 'virtual' prisoners. Probably would have been a better source of intel to boot.
    Are you saying this is what's routinely happening to Americans simply because of their religious affiliation?
    Last edited by groovy; 08/15/2010 at 01:48 AM.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    These two express my concerns in a much better way than I can: Mischief in Manhattan

    There you go. There are right-wing Muslims too who seem to echo your sentiments. Why paint them all with one brush? Of course, I doubt there are many other Muslims that agree with them, and they live in Canada.

    You are losing this discussion badly. Complaining about the size of the effort, asking about alternative memorials, trying to find excuses to justify why this is any of your business at all, painting all Muslims as extremists, using the KKK as an example (if so, then all Christians are responsible for the the KKK has done), backing off by claiming it's an issue of "taste"...the fact is you are arguing against freedom of religion, private commerce, and many other perspectives you would argue for in any other situation. Really...you should give it up.
    Last edited by davidra; 08/15/2010 at 09:01 AM.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    Your entire point is based on Islam itself being responsible for 9/11. It was not. You are labeling anything Muslim = terrorist.



    How dare I compare one kind of discrimination to another!


    Again you fail to see the wrong happening to these people because they are Muslim.



    Again you are painting all Muslims with the same brush.
    Well Nick if you get on a plane and see 3 muslim men on there, what are your thoughts going to be? Ah racial profiling, its natural I do it all the time and you cant tell me that the thoughts of 911 wont come rushing back to your head, or that you wont every once in a while put your eyes on them too see what they are doing. You are in the same boat like it or not its instinct.

    Is every shark in the ocean going to attack you if they see you out there? No, but some will so when we see a shark most of us get the hell out of the water! Your next complaint will be "how can you compare these people to animals?" Well my friend people that looked like them, people that speak like them and people that had the same religious backround as them MURDERED 3000 AMERICANS! They acted like animals, so we react like they are animals.

    I grew up in a big city in an area where being white made you a minority. I got my tail kicked very frequently by multiple black guys, now before you go shouting "racist" I must say that I have some very very good african american friends. What all those *** kickings did to me was made it harder for me too trust a black gentleman that I dont know or that dresses a certain way.
    What Im saying is that the reactions of a majority of Americans towards muslims is survival instict, thats why we paint them all with the same brush and it will take many many years to change that.
    Last edited by switchedgear; 08/15/2010 at 08:47 AM.
  17. mdavis113's Avatar
    Posts
    21 Posts
    Global Posts
    22 Global Posts
    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    These two express my concerns in a much better way than I can: Mischief in Manhattan
    The OP was about POTUS's comments last Friday... "Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as anyone else in this country."

    "That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," Obama said.

    As one who has taken an oath with language similar to the Presidential Oath of Office "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States" there is no question how one would side in this issue and remain faithful to this oath.

    All the OP does is contribute to the 'white noise' that prevents very valid questions from being raised and discussed. It took four pages of debating before you brought the focus on an issue and an advocate (Raheel Raza) whose opinions and concerns I share.

    Are you saying this is what's routinely happening to Americans simply because of their religious affiliation?
    No, I don't believe we limit it to religious affiliation :wink:
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by switchedgear View Post
    Is every shark in the ocean going to attack you if they see you out there? No, but some will so when we see a shark most of us get the hell out of the water! Your next complaint will be "how can you compare these people to animals?" Well my friend people that looked like them, people that speak like them and people that had the same religious backround as them MURDERED 3000 AMERICANS! They acted like animals, so we react like they are animals.

    I grew up in a big city in an area where being white made you a minority. I got my tail kicked very frequently by multiple black guys, now before you go shouting "racist" I must say that I have some very very good african american friends. What all those *** kickings did to me was made it harder for me too trust a black gentleman that I dont know or that dresses a certain way.
    What Im saying is that the reactions of a majority of Americans towards muslims is survival instict, thats why we paint them all with the same brush and it will take many many years to change that.
    Yep. You might want to re-think the use of the term "we" and restrict it to the others that want to deny these people their rights. I paint them with no such brush. And it's reactions like that the Constitution is intended to vanquish by protecting the rights of those that happen to disagree with you.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yep. You might want to re-think the use of the term "we" and restrict it to the others that want to deny these people their rights. I paint them with no such brush. And it's reactions like that the Constitution is intended to vanquish by protecting the rights of those that happen to disagree with you.
    You assumption that I dont believe we all are equal and that we dont all have the same rights only shows your inability to grasp what I am saying. Again my point is that we react out of our experiences in life because of our instict to survive.

    I did not say every muslim is like this and I did not say every american reacts this way. When I say "we" I mean the others who feel as I do which obviously does not include "you". Which by the way your ideas and beliefs are protected under the constitution just as mine are.

    I only gave my opinion as to why some Americans or "we" (again people who feel like me) react the way "we" do and I said it is not the right time for this in my humble opinion.
    Last edited by switchedgear; 08/15/2010 at 09:40 AM.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by switchedgear View Post
    You assumption that I dont believe we all are equal and that we dont all have the same rights only shows your inability to grasp what I am saying. Again my point is that we react out of our experiences in life because of our instict to survive.

    I did not say every muslim is like this and I did not say every american reacts this way. When I say "we" I mean the others who feel as I do which obviously does not include "you". Which by the way your ideas and beliefs are protected under the constitution just as mine are.

    I only gave my opinion as to why some Americans or "we" (again people who feel like me) react the way "we" do and I said it is not the right time for this in my humble opinion.
    You absolutely have your right to your opinions about this. What you did say, exactly, was:

    Well my friend people that looked like them, people that speak like them and people that had the same religious backround as them MURDERED 3000 AMERICANS! They acted like animals, so we react like they are animals.
    I'm glad you feel that Muslims should have the same rights as you do. But giving a justification for why "we" behave would seem to suggest that you are included in that group. Otherwise, you might have said something like "some people react like they are animals". But you didn't.
Page 4 of 22 FirstFirst 12345678914 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions