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  1. jwinn35's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    +1 agreed!

    There are multiple Mosques w/in 5 blocks of "ground zero" already!
    all the attention and protests that media (and politicians) are bringing around this issue is just as stupid as building the mosque there.
    the very first amendment is freedom of religion we have no right to protest that (exceptd with our freedom of speech whatever though) its bad taste for them to put up the mosque there. But its worse we're just painting a bigger "ignorant" target on our *** by being so LOUD about disputing this. And I think Obama is being very smart by publicly saying he is not against it! All I have to say is if Bush was in office during this uproar his idiocracy would say something dumb and get us attacked again!
    yeah just like we were attacked the 7 years after nine eleven in his office. He kept the country safe incase you didn't notice. Yes there was a war, but it was fully supported by the overwhelming amount of all Americans. Bush wouldn't have said anything idiotic he would have just stepped up and been brave like Americans should be. Biden is the one that always seems to shove his foot in his mouth, but that makes me kind of like the guy because he seems to say what's on his mind instead of saying what the party wants him to say.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    So, we're all agreed that the problem is religion then?
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by dbdoinit
    If you lost anybody on 9/11, would you give a rat's @ s s about the politics of this, the "fringe" elements of that, or the religious beliefs of the murderers etc etc?
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbdoinit View Post
    One question, Lou (and other like-minded people) -

    If you lost anybody on 9/11, would you give a rat's @ s s about the politics of this, the "fringe" elements of that, or the religious beliefs of the murderers etc etc?
    You are the one relating the 9/11 attack with a mosque. They have no relation other than the fact that the terrorists who participated in the attack were/are Muslim.

    This is a slippery slope. I'm really surprised how many Americans are labeling anything Islamic terrorist related.
    Last edited by NickDG; 08/14/2010 at 01:42 PM.
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
  4. mdavis113's Avatar
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    #24  
    06 May 2008
    Majority Rule, Minority Rights
    (The following one-pager is taken from the U.S. Department of State publication, Principles of Democracy.)

    On the surface, the principles of majority rule and the protection of individual and minority rights would seem contradictory. In fact, however, these principles are twin pillars holding up the very foundation of what we mean by democratic government.

    Majority rule is a means for organizing government and deciding public issues; it is not another road to oppression. Just as no self-appointed group has the right to oppress others, so no majority, even in a democracy, should take away the basic rights and freedoms of a minority group or individual.

    Minorities whether as a result of ethnic background, religious belief, geographic location, income level, or simply as the losers in elections or political debate enjoy guaranteed basic human rights that no government, and no majority, elected or not, should remove.

    Minorities need to trust that the government will protect their rights and self-identity. Once this is accomplished, such groups can participate in, and contribute to their country's democratic institutions.

    Among the basic human rights that any democratic government must protect are freedom of speech and expression; freedom of religion and belief; due process and equal protection under the law; and freedom to organize, speak out, dissent, and participate fully in the public life of their society.

    Democracies understand that protecting the rights of minorities to uphold cultural identity, social practices, individual consciences, and religious activities is one of their primary tasks.

    Acceptance of ethnic and cultural groups that seem strange if not alien to the majority can represent one of the greatest challenges that any democratic government can face. But democracies recognize that diversity can be an enormous asset. They treat these differences in identity, culture, and values as a challenge that can strengthen and enrich them, not as a threat.

    There can be no single answer to how minority-group differences in views and values are resolved only the sure knowledge that only through the democratic process of tolerance, debate, and willingness to compromise can free societies reach agreements that embrace the twin pillars of majority rule and minority rights.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbdoinit View Post
    One question, Lou (and other like-minded people) -

    If you lost anybody on 9/11, would you give a rat's @ s s about the politics of this, the "fringe" elements of that, or the religious beliefs of the murderers etc etc?
    Yes, I would. And, if you want to know, yes, I did. I do a lot of work with financial services folks (brokerage houses, underwriters, law firms, etc.). I remember spending the better part of that day trying to break through the telephone circuit log jam trying to see who made it out of 1 and 2.

    If we cannot live up to our basic Constitutional obligations, ESPECIALLY in times of trouble, then we truly have failed as a nation and as a people. All of this hate speech clothed in "prudence" this or holier-than-thou that only drags us down as a Nation. Equal protection under the law, plain and simple.

    Oh, why does not anyone mention the mosque that is already near Ground Zero? Think Progress Fox Hosts Agree With Obama’s Defense Of Mosque: ‘He Has To Stand Up For Our Constitution’. [NB: I HAD NOT SEEN THE OTHER RESPONSES MENTIONING THIS FACT PRIOR TO MY REPLY. THANK YOU TO ALL THE OTHER POSTERS WHO HIGHLIGHTED THIS FACT.]

    When Fox News is the voice of reason on the issue, I think that about says all that needs to be said.
    Last edited by louwiid; 08/14/2010 at 01:48 PM.
    "Honest to the point of recklessness; self-centered in the extreme."
  6. jwinn35's Avatar
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by louwiid View Post


    When Fox News is the voice of reason on the issue, I think that about says all that needs to be said.
    that's funny cause I think the same thing about cnn and msnbc!
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinn35 View Post
    that's funny cause I think the same thing about cnn and msnbc!
    Oh, I agree completely. All of the "news" outlets are full of burnt offal. Some just shovel cow offal and others prefer swine or goat. It has become a sad race to the bottom (right along with the intelligence of the populace).

    The point is that even a hawkish outfit, Fox News, will put ideology aside and agree with a President (who is not one of the all-time favorites of either the network or its average viewer) on an Constitutional basis.
    "Honest to the point of recklessness; self-centered in the extreme."
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinn35 View Post
    that's funny cause I think the same thing about cnn and msnbc!
    we all have our drug (brainwashing) of choice!
  9. jwinn35's Avatar
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    we all have our drug (brainwashing) of choice!
    ha ha of course that's kind of why I stopped watching anything for the most part. I agree most with fox but then I started to think there's no way the are right all the time and the other news are wrong, but they all disagree on everything so I sometimes think they go out of their way to disagree. No one ideology can be right about everything all the time, so I just folloe my bible and think for myself about everything else.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by louwiid View Post
    If we cannot live up to our basic Constitutional obligations, ESPECIALLY in times of trouble, then we truly have failed as a nation and as a people. All of this hate speech clothed in "prudence" this or holier-than-thou that only drags us down as a Nation. Equal protection under the law, plain and simple.
  11. #31  
    this whole situation is ridiculous! Wasn't america founed by a bunch of ppl who were just trying to find a place to perform there own religions and we can't blame then whole damn religion for what a couple crazy afgans did! It's like blaming the whole christain religion for what ****** did or somthing like that... Most ppl that come over from the middle east are trying to start a better life and get away from all the fighting and lets face it middle eatern ppl are really starting to populate everywhere but this is america were the botluck of the world becuz we have so many cultures and ppl, all I'm saying is if they wanna build and muslim church by ground zero then let them! It's there right as an american citizen! The first damn law freedom of religon cmon...
  12. #32  
    i dont get it. if the kkk blew up a building, would it be wrong to have a baptist church in the memorial?

    a radical sect doesnt represent the whole. i'm sure many american Muslims died that day, and their families deserve a place on-sight for their prayers.
  13. jwinn35's Avatar
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    i dont get it. if the kkk blew up a building, would it be wrong to have a baptist church in the memorial?

    a radical sect doesnt represent the whole. i'm sure many american Muslims died that day, and their families deserve a place on-sight for their prayers.
    the difference is the kkk wouldn't have done it because the baptist church said to. Like I stated before they hate us americans because some muslims are tought that we are the infidel and we must die. Not that all forms of islam teach that but some do.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinn35 View Post
    the difference is the kkk wouldn't have done it because the baptist church said to. Like I stated before they hate us americans because some muslims are tought that we are the infidel and we must die. Not that all forms of islam teach that but some do.
    Let's put this in perspective...

    900 years ago the Crusades began in which a force of Primarily Roman Catholics were told that God wanted them to go into the middle east and reclaim the "Holy Land" and that by doing so (which entailed fighting and killing Muslims) they would be pardoned of their sins and thus get into Heaven. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Does this mean that ALL Roman Catholics hate Muslims because some were taught that Muslims were evil and needed to be killed?
  15. #35  
    as I said earlier, just because they have the right to do something doesn't mean that doing it would be the right thing.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    as I said earlier, just because they have the right to do something doesn't mean that doing it would be the right thing.
    What is wrong about it?
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
  17. #37  
    ^ ^^ Agreed!
    ^^ Agreed

    Could it be done Absolutely!
    Should it be done probably not!
    should we all make a big stink of it, I think absolutely not!

    just my humble opinion!
    but my IQ is about only 10 so what do I know!
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    What is wrong about it?
    I personally feel the only thing wrong with it is everyone else!
    I think they would get lots of "stink eyes" and harassement! which could cause a bigger fuss!
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    I personally feel the only thing wrong with it is everyone else!
    I think they would get lots of "stink eyes" and harassement! which could cause a bigger fuss!
    Yeah Rosa should have just stayed in the back of the bus!

    I'm afraid a lot Americans share your view, which frightens me. This whole "they shouldn't be there because they will cause drama" argument is almost as bad as "they shouldn't be there because they are Muslim" arguments.

    I understand where you are coming from, but as Americans we must not forget why we created this country to begin with.
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinn35 View Post
    there is definitely no problem with this because of freedom of religion, but it seems like a slap in the face to all those that died there at the twin towers. They killed thousands of people because we are the infidel or "one without faith". Now they want a mosque there just to rub it in their faces, or atleast that's the way most people see it. Islam is the same as other religions if you take scripture out of context you can train people to follow a certain way. In the Quran it commands the killing of the infidel, but it's taken out of context because the verse says if you are in defense slay the infidel not go on the attack and kill. The whole point is they can build this anywhere and whos to say what kind of teaching they are going t be doing. Is it going to be the proper teaching of Islam or is it going to be the bending of the words that promote hate. That's what people are angry about. Just build it somewhere else, why does it have to be right there? That is the only problem with it for me. I support freedom of religion but I also support freedom of common sense.
    Oh, really? So your problem with Islam is that the Quaran may be interpreted in different ways? Have you ever read the Bible? Tell you what....when are you going to start stoning to death everyone who works on Sunday? Ever cursed at your parents? You need to be put to death.

    The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

    ....ad nauseum. You really think Christianity is any "better"? That the Bible can't be interpreted in many ways justifying horrible acts? Intolerance is the refuge of the uneducated.
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