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  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Would it be acceptable for those practicing **** German beliefs to erect such an edifice in New York for individuals of THAT persuasion? I mean freedom of religion and beliefs right? How might the people of Israel feel about a church dedicated to ****** at the center of the country's capital?

    Let's put a monument of Islam - the religion whose radical sect wages a jihad against us - right smack on top of the very site where they murdered 3000 americans.

    I can't believe this. Nothing is sacred.
    Ugggh! I hate these off-topic threads but I'm also sick of hearing about this non-story as well. The bottom line is that we're either America or we're not. We either have freedom of religion or we don't. I don't give a $#!% what Country X does to restrict the freedoms of its people - we don't do that because we're America.

    You don't have to be Muslim to support the right of Muslims to build a place of worship on the site of an abandoned Burlington Coat Factory. You just have to believe in the First Amendment. One group of extremists attacked on 911 not the entire Islamic religion. Just like only a handful of extremists bomb abortion clinics and picket soldiers' funerals, not the entire Christian religion. Just like only a handful of priests molest children, not the entire Catholic Church.

    Just the fact that we are having this debate at all is more proof of the bigotry which is tearing this country apart.
  2. #182  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbdoinit View Post
    You call that revenge? For the murders of 3000+ office workers? Seriously?
    I'm not, but that's what people that are opposed to the building seem to make it out to be. It was a couple of maniacs who made the attacks, they do not represent the billion+ Muslims in the world.
  3. #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by koolkid09 View Post
    I'm not, but that's what people that are opposed to the building seem to make it out to be. It was a couple of maniacs who made the attacks, they do not represent the billion+ Muslims in the world.
    Those "couple of maniacs" were funded by extremely rich, powerful maniacs and there're plenty more where they came from. Do not be naive. Please.
  4. #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthRepublican View Post
    Ugggh! I hate these off-topic threads but I'm also sick of hearing about this non-story as well. The bottom line is that we're either America or we're not. We either have freedom of religion or we don't. I don't give a $#!% what Country X does to restrict the freedoms of its people - we don't do that because we're America.

    You don't have to be Muslim to support the right of Muslims to build a place of worship on the site of an abandoned Burlington Coat Factory. You just have to believe in the First Amendment. One group of extremists attacked on 911 not the entire Islamic religion. Just like only a handful of extremists bomb abortion clinics and picket soldiers' funerals, not the entire Christian religion. Just like only a handful of priests molest children, not the entire Catholic Church.

    Just the fact that we are having this debate at all is more proof of the bigotry which is tearing this country apart.
    Out of your examples, only the abortion clinic bomber is really analagous. the Priest doesn't molest the children in the name of christianity.

    I don't consider myself a bigot (though I imagine most bigots don't consider themselves so). I also, as an American and a lawyer, don't think the government can or should do anything to prevent the group from building their Mosque their. But, as an american, I can voice and support others who choose to do so, their displeasure with the decision. If the group doesn't care what people think, and just wants a place to prey, they should build the Mosque. But if the group really wants to promote harmony between two cultures (Islam and the West), they should probably rethink this decision.
  5. #185  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbdoinit View Post
    Those "couple of maniacs" were funded by extremely rich, powerful maniacs and there're plenty more where they came from. Do not be naive. Please.
    Don't be ignorant and deny them the right to build it right there. They were not responsible for the attacks, and as Americans they were most likely just as saddened as all of us of the attacks.
  6. #186  
    Quote Originally Posted by koolkid09 View Post
    Don't be ignorant and deny them the right to build it right there. They were not responsible for the attacks, and as Americans they were most likely just as saddened as all of us of the attacks.
    I remember you saying in another thread recently that you're 17 yrs old.
    That would put you at around 8 yrs old when this happened.

    I'm not saying this to belittle you in any way, but at 8 yrs old, you must not have watched the news very much, and thus missed all the dancing in the streets in those Muslim countries when the news broke.

    They didn't look at all as saddened as the rest of the world was.
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    #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    I don't know what point you are trying to make (for or against), but here is a shot from Google maps showing the WTC site and the mosque location. The width of 2 city blocks, which is easy walking distance. Out of respect for city residents and those that perished - especially the first responders... that's just too close. They have the right to build there (if zoning allows) but it sure seems disrespectful to the citizens of NYC who overwhelmingly object to the location. IMHO. Keep in mind that the proposed site was damaged by the towers, and the proposed facility will be to replace the current structure that was damaged. If it was damaged by the collapsing towers... ya, I'd say that's part of ground zero...

    Look at the map, and then tell me that this isn't part of "ground zero".
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    I just did. See the post I just made with a map attached. I'd argue that the boundaries of that map are a minimum area for "ground zero" and the proposed location is well within that... of course this is just my opinion.

    There is no official "decider" on what is or isn't "ground zero" but civility and good manners tell me that the location doesn't pass the "good neighbor" test.
    So you're admitting that it's completely arbitrary? Also, that building was not damaged by either of the towers. It was damaged by the landing gear from one of the planes. How do you feel about the Muslim prayer room in the Pentagon that has been there since 9/11?

    Quote Originally Posted by Courousant View Post
    Nobody is being punished. You just asked why people aren't happy about it and what the connection with Islam is. It's not, hey the attackers were all male, so now we don't want any Men to build near Ground Zero. The attackers carried out the attack in the name of Islam. I don't for a second believe that these people represent all islamic people or that anyone else should be punished for their actions, but Workerb33's "Good Neighbor" point is a valid one. It is not and should not be banned by the government, but that doesn't make it a particularly sensitive thing to do. Nor is it particularly strategic if the goal of the group is to bring together Muslim and western cultures as they purport.
    Why is everyone ignoring my post where I raise the possibility that a COMMUNITY center might actually be worth it after all, and the developers are sure of this? Maybe their goal really actually is to build a community center that brings people together (novel idea, I know).

    When you were a teenager I'm sure you thought your parents were being "insensitive" when they wouldn't let you stay out until all hours of the night, but now that you're all grown up, you realize that they were just thinking farther ahead than you were. And no matter how bad you felt at the time and how SURE YOU WERE THAT YOU WERE RIGHT AND THEY WERE WRONG because your feelings were hurt, now you know that they were not trying to hurt you.
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    #188  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbdoinit View Post
    I remember you saying in another thread recently that you're 17 yrs old.
    That would put you at around 8 yrs old when this happened.

    I'm not saying this to belittle you in any way, but at 8 yrs old, you must not have watched the news very much, and thus missed all the dancing in the streets in those Muslim countries when the news broke.

    They didn't look at all as saddened as the rest of the world was.
    Do you think the media was going to show Muslim sympathizers when we were looking for scapegoats?
  9. #189  
    Quote Originally Posted by Speebs View Post
    Do you think the media was going to show Muslim sympathizers when we were looking for scapegoats?
    Yes. The left-leaning media outlets would. The very first chance they got.
    Maybe saddened people over there were more difficult to find.
  10. #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by Speebs View Post
    Can you take a look at Google Maps and tell us exactly what the boundaries of "Ground Zero" are? Thanks.
    so now that i've posted the map, do you agree that is close enough to be called disrespectful at the very least?

    it's only about 1,000 feet of walking from where the towers stood to the site on park avenue. That's 300 yards. That's close.
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    #191  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbdoinit View Post
    Yes. The left-leaning media outlets would. The very first chance they got.
    Maybe saddened people over there were more difficult to find.
    Why would they, at that time?
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    #192  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    so now that i've posted the map, do you agree that is close enough to be called disrespectful at the very least?

    it's only about 1,000 feet of walking from where the towers stood to the site on park avenue. That's 300 yards. That's close.
    I know how close it is as I work a couple of blocks away. I agree that it's "close" (which is relative), but I don't agree that it's disrespectful. Where would you like them to put it?
  13. #193  
    So, when the Freedom Tower is completed and (undoubtedly) Muslims are among those who work there, would those of you who oppose Park51 also prohibit them from using a room in the building for their daily prayers? {Jonathan}
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    #194  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan I Ezor View Post
    So, when the Freedom Tower is completed and (undoubtedly) Muslims are among those who work there, would those of you who oppose Park51 also prohibit them from using a room in the building for their daily prayers? {Jonathan}
    Slow down! I'm still waiting for a response on either of my posts asking about the prayer room at the Pentagon!
  15. #195  
    Quote Originally Posted by Speebs View Post
    Why would they, at that time?
    So that we would get the impression that the majority are human beings, just like us.

    They just weren't able to find any to put on camera, were they?

    Both left AND right media outlets showed the same reaction. Isn't that interesting?
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    #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbdoinit View Post
    So that we would get the impression that the majority are human beings, just like us.

    They just weren't able to find any to put on camera, were they?

    Both left AND right media outlets showed the same reaction. Isn't that interesting?
    No, I don't think so. At that time we didn't have a ton of press in the Middle East because it was before we went to war, right? So the media all had to share affiliate footage (which is why they all showed the same exact footage), and the "leftward leaning" media didn't have any reason to sympathize with anyone yet because, again, we hadn't gone to war yet. The "left" and "right" media don't always have to have diametrically opposite views on everything.
  17. #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by Speebs View Post
    Slow down! I'm still waiting for a response on either of my posts asking about the prayer room at the Pentagon!
    Sorry; we're thinking alike. {Jonathan}
  18. #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by Speebs View Post
    Slow down! I'm still waiting for a response on either of my posts asking about the prayer room at the Pentagon!
    I don't tbink I have a problem with that. It's provided by the pentagon along side similar facilities for other faiths. It's run by the pentagon, not an Imam that wants the US to adopt islamic law for the entire country. I'm ok with it.
    Last edited by Workerb33; 08/17/2010 at 09:07 PM.
  19. #199  
    let's not be picky about what caused the damage to that building. It was related to the attack. That's the point.
  20. #200  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan I Ezor View Post
    So, when the Freedom Tower is completed and (undoubtedly) Muslims are among those who work there, would those of you who oppose Park51 also prohibit them from using a room in the building for their daily prayers? {Jonathan}
    I dunno. I don't see a problem if the owners of the tower want to dothat. Are they planning for something like that?
    Last edited by Workerb33; 08/17/2010 at 09:06 PM.

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