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  1.    #21  
    I am the first to admit that this is a singular perspective, by the way. I do not believe that housing, or owning an automobile, or having child care should be a mandated benefit to anyone. People do not die from a lack of these benefits (except rarely in the case of exposure). They do die from lack of quality health care, every day. There is no excuse for that in our country.
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Having apologized for missing the one comment that actually addressed the thread, however, the rest of the post is your usually puffery and nonsense. I'm sure that in your head of heads you really think that the republicans would have passed anything that the President of the United States wanted passed, even to control fraud. That's your fantasy world.
    As for me, I'm fine with them calling it whatever they want. I would prefer if they are going to call it a tax, then we should just go to universal coverage and increase taxes as needed to pay for it, but one does what one has to do to get the necessary end product, which in this case is health care for all who need it. I have not ever apologized for justifying any means to this end. It supplants politics as far as I"m concerned, so I'm good with whatever it takes to reach that goal. You feel free to consider that an invasion of your liberties. Believe me, I could care less. There are things more important than theoretical arguments. This is one.
    Yes, I'm well aware that you have no respect for individual liberty, freedom, Constitutional government, etc. That's why people like you must be prevented from harming the very core of our society and nation, under the guise of providing needed services to people.

    I'd give you credit for paving the road to hell with good intentions, because I believe you think what you demand is helpful. Unfortunately, this same mindset has proven harmful in the past, and I don't believe that the politicians who you (selectively) place your faith in even have good intentions.

    It's unfortunate that you have the complete inability to see beyond the means you justify and realize that things have unintended (or intended that are hidden by deceptive politicians) consequences and end up doing more harm than good.

    You're view is fundamentally flawed, because you refuse to consider that the problem exists BECAUSE of the manipulation that you demand we increase. Your answer is to do MORE of what is harmful and what created the problem in the first place, and that is insanity. All you've advocated is handing more ammunition to the people killing us all (financially and figuratively).

    This "reform" won't solve the INHERENT financial problems, and your willful denial of this won't hold off the problems that will persist, and likely worsen due to what you advocate.

    KAM
  3.    #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post

    It's unfortunate that you have the complete inability to see beyond the means you justify and realize that things have unintended (or intended that are hidden by deceptive politicians) consequences and end up doing more harm than good.

    KAM
    And that is the argument I reject. Unless all heath care is withdrawn from everyone in the US, or armed conflict breaks out with some T-bagging group of militiamen who can't spell "health care", there are no consequences that that "could end up doing more harm than good" by providing quality health care to all. Admittedly a narrow perspective, but I have no problem with changing a system that is biased, preferential, unavailable to many, and broken. How it gets paid for, while not irrelevant, is less important to me than it gets done successfully.
  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And that is the argument I reject. Unless all heath care is withdrawn from everyone in the US, or armed conflict breaks out with some T-bagging group of militiamen who can't spell "health care", there are no consequences that that "could end up doing more harm than good" by providing quality health care to all.
    What makes you think that will be the result. What sort of healthcare do you think will be available if there is a REAL economic collapse. Do you think that a collapsed US dollar (as the result of "printing money"), and debt that there is no possibility to pay off (look at the projections for the costs of even the existing healthcare). Will we have an economic collapse? No way to really say for sure, but anyone that thinks we are somehow immune to the reality of economics, they are crazy.

    You can reject it if you want, but doing so requires head-in-the-sand thinking in order to focus on what you want vs the costs and problems associated with getting what you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Admittedly a narrow perspective, but I have no problem with changing a system that is biased, preferential, unavailable to many, and broken. How it gets paid for, while not irrelevant, is less important to me than it gets done successfully.
    I have no problem changing a system either...I'd just rather change it to a system that isn't an amplified version of the one that has failed, and led us to where we are today. That's what we're getting--a continuation of a manipulated system that CAUSED the problems we have today.

    And again, you fail to understand the inherent issue that how it gets paid for determines whether it gets done successfully or not. You're imagining a separation that cannot exist, ignoring a huge component of the issue, and wishing and hoping the result will be good.

    You think that you can keep beating the economy with unsustainable programs, and somehow it will all work out. It's pure fantasy.

    KAM
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    What makes you think that will be the result. What sort of healthcare do you think will be available if there is a REAL economic collapse. Do you think that a collapsed US dollar (as the result of "printing money"), and debt that there is no possibility to pay off (look at the projections for the costs of even the existing healthcare). Will we have an economic collapse? No way to really say for sure, but anyone that thinks we are somehow immune to the reality of economics, they are crazy.

    You can reject it if you want, but doing so requires head-in-the-sand thinking in order to focus on what you want vs the costs and problems associated with getting what you want.



    I have no problem changing a system either...I'd just rather change it to a system that isn't an amplified version of the one that has failed, and led us to where we are today. That's what we're getting--a continuation of a manipulated system that CAUSED the problems we have today.

    And again, you fail to understand the inherent issue that how it gets paid for determines whether it gets done successfully or not. You're imagining a separation that cannot exist, ignoring a huge component of the issue, and wishing and hoping the result will be good.

    You think that you can keep beating the economy with unsustainable programs, and somehow it will all work out. It's pure fantasy.

    KAM
    You see, this paranoid jumping up and down and predicting the failure of the country is actually laughable. It hasn't ever happened, it won't happen, and you are nothing more than fear-mongering (of course, if you actually believe that the country will fail, that's more a knowledge issue). It's the same manure that the right uses to scare people about gun control, about how "they" will come take your guns away. Never happened, never will; same hyperbolic paranoia.

    Unlike you, I have faith that this country can provide quality health care to every citizen without destroying itself. Given the predictions of destruction that issued forth like hot air from the right prior to the passage of Medicare, allow me to say: BS. I think we have excellent leadership right now, and although it will take time demonstrate it, we have come a long way with the economy from where it was, and it will continue to improve. There will be no serious challenge to Obama in 2012, because the economy will be in great shape by then. Any bets?
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