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  1. #41  
    @groovy

    you are correct, and he crosses that line when he criticizes his country and/or apologizes for thing I think we should do and therefore shouldn't apologize for. Or when he spanks israel for doing things that are legitimate, etc. Not offering specifics as that would be off topic. I hade the same criticism of bush #1 when he convinced the kurds to rebel and then didn't support them. That's my point - harming allies for doing stuff we also support.

    but to me, bowing wasn't on the list...
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    And that is measured with a protractor?
    Actually, that one could have been measured with a yardstick.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Having said the above, Obama's Japan gaffe didn't make me cringe near as much as the Merkel shoulder rub incident.
    happily, I watch so little news any more that I don't know what the japan gaff was. How did it compare to bush #1 vomiting on their leaders?

    that was funny, but also a bit embarrassing to many americans.
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    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    @groovy

    you are correct, and he crosses that line when he criticizes his country and/or apologizes for thing I think we should do and therefore shouldn't apologize for.
    And that's what many people suspect was at the core of the bowing incident; not just cultural sensitivity but apology for America's past hubris. Of course, when he's forced to follow some of the same policies as the Bush administration it will only serve to make him look duplicitous.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Workerb33 View Post
    @groovy

    ...I made the same criticism of bush #1 when he convinced the kurds to rebel and then didn't support them. That's my point - harming allies for doing stuff we also support....
    for the record -- yes initially the Kurds and the Shiites were encouraged to rebel and then daddy watched as they were crushed. Eventually (in part because if pressure from the Europeans, even the Turks somewhat) a no-fly safe haven in northern iraq was carved out for the Kurds.

    The massacre of the Shiites was unrelenting -- daddy was indifferent to it, and the Shiites of iraq (and iran) perceived a cynical calculated support and approval for Saddam's massacres and blood curdling ruthlessness.
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  6. #46  
    Intelligent debate on a forum, I LOVE it!

    You make some good points there, but it's a bit much to reply together, so let me reply in-line.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I must say I am fascinated by your post. You appear to be relatively open-minded about things, yet you evidence some interesting statements that are far from that.

    I'll ignore the dig there, since you buried it in a compliment...

    Bowing to others? Just because we have our own idea about cultural sensitivity issues doesn't mean everybody else shares those. It's hardly demeaning to show another country you understand their protocol. In fact, it shows a maturity and understanding of the world that has been sorely lacking.

    I disagree. Some brief research would show that in the middle eastern cultures where he has been seen doing this, it was not appropriate for him even in their culture. It's not like Japan where a bow is the equivalent of a handshake. It's only appropriate in most middle eastern cultures to bow to a superior. As the president of the United States, he should treat them as equals, not superiors.

    I will grant you that in some ways he has outdone the statesmanship of recent predecessors, he has made some spectacular failures as well.


    I would be willing to bet you any amount of money that no sitting president has ever read an entire bill all the way through. Do you really think he didn't know what was in it?

    Well, he clearly didn't know what was in the immigration bill he was so ready to speak out against. Having read every word of it myself, it does not do any of the terrible things that people on the left have suggested. All I can say without getting into a lengthy off topic debate is that whether or not other presidents routinely read the full text of legislation before signing it isn't relevant. What is relevant is whether or not we, as the voting public, should expect them to. I say yes.


    Acknowledging the birthers sounds rational, but you must be smoking something if you think that there is anything he or Hawaii would provide that would shut them up. They would simply claim it was forged. It would be embarking on an endless distraction of claptrap nonsense.

    That's probably a valid point.

    It appear to many that the stimulus has worked fairly well...

    The "stimulus" had several components to it. Some of them were well thought out, and effective. Many of them were a complete and total waste of taxpayer money, and in some cases, counter productive. TARP is a great example. The original intent of TARP, which was to relieve major banks of toxic assets. This is a good thing. The problem is that it came with a mind bloglingly huge amount of discretionary spending with little or no oversite. I understand that Bush Jr started it. I'm just disappointed that Obama failed to reign it in. It could have been infinitely more effective than it was. Instead he made it worse by giving unlimited power to distribute the money without oversite to, what was it, the secretary of the treasury if I remember correctly?


    Both parties are dictated to by special interests, but there are differences. A very good friend of mine is in the administration. His appointment caused major problems for Obama because he was a prior "lobbyist": he ran a non-profit for a few years that was dedicated to stopping tobacco use among children (before that he was Daschle's chief of staff as the senate majority leader). For that he was roundly criticized. So now he is in HHS in a very high position, but cannot deal with the tobacco efforts at all. That's fine, but I'd rather have him in place than someone who lobbied for banks, or Haliburton, or the oil companies (like some in this adminstration have done). To me there's a difference. But I am biased, I suppose. Rational unbiased thinking is rare these days, so the only way to get things accomplished is by being more biased than the other party. Basically, we have a flawed system, no matter how wonderful the constitution is. The system and the country have outgrown it, as irritating as that is for conservatives to believe. There was no such thing as stem cell transplants, or nuclear weapons, or airplanes, or illegal immigrants in numbers like there are now, or the internet. There is no guidance for these issues, and politicizing them really is the wrong way to go about things. Enough rambling. I appreciate your willingness to have an open mind about things to some extent. I wish more had this, including myself. I think we have a thoughtful intelligent president who can do great things if he is allowed to lead. His bravery the other day in his comments about moving forward with immigration legislation is just one example of how he has not been afraid to tackle issues that every other president, including Clinton, have shied away from.

    I pretty much agree with that whole comment, including that he is intelligent and has a lot of potential. I don't believe he's living up to his potential yet, which brings it all back around to the OP. Trying to rank him half way through is just silly. He may come around and start living up to his potential, or he may turn even worse than Bush Jr.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by tcrunner View Post
    I basically agree, although their criteria seem to be mostly focused on the intangibles of vision and leadership. As historians, they have a much more acute awareness of how vision and leadership factor into a historical perspective than the average partisan.
    Which again begs the question as to how the heck he was so high. The only logical reason could be the people who were voting in this rather pathetic poll.
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  8. #48  
    Hmm.... well, I'm sure that if I searched I could find 100 dentists who would say that brushing your teeth with molasses is one of the top 3 things you can do for healthy teeth. Studies using professional sounding positions (ie: professors) may make them sound valid, but are about as valid sounding as putting playing cards in a bike's spokes to sound like a motor-cycle.
  9. #49  
    I figured it out! Vision = staring off in the distance when giving a speech. I agree he does that well.
  10. #50  
    As for Obama.....I have found a way that when I get completely annoyed with seeing him (which is often since the man does nothing but stay on the TV in some type of perpetual campaign mode), rather than yelling at the TV and cursing, I now stay calm (serenity now)...close my eyes....and pray for him using Psalm 109:8. You see, we can all pray for Obama I apologize to the atheists in here for the reference to prayer.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Which again begs the question as to how the heck he was so high. The only logical reason could be the people who were voting in this rather pathetic poll.
    I think its fair to say that they're weighting the circumstances that he faced coming into office: the world cratering into a horrific depression, a nation that had alienated the entire world even its historic allies, 2 awful wars -- including one which through neglect and incompetency had turned from a success into a failure.

    Obama has accomplished much already despite the cards left him by junior -- the scholars are also anticipating more based on his intellect, passion, and empathy.
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I think its fair to say that they're weighting the circumstances that he faced coming into office: the world cratering into a horrific depression, a nation that had alienated the entire world even its historic allies, 2 awful wars -- including one which through neglect and incompetency had turned from a success into a failure.

    Obama has accomplished much already despite the cards left him by junior -- the scholars are also anticipating more based on his intellect, passion, and empathy.
    And, like everyone, they certainly have their own political leanings and biases. Has anyone seen an actual list of questions or respondents?
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    How anyone can say any President is the 10th or 1st or 15th when its not even half way through a first term is beyond me. What a complete piece of fluff journalism.
    this! Lincoln was HATED....but 100 years later, he's one of the best.
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  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I think its fair to say that they're weighting the circumstances that he faced coming into office: the world cratering into a horrific depression, a nation that had alienated the entire world even its historic allies, 2 awful wars -- including one which through neglect and incompetency had turned from a success into a failure.

    Obama has accomplished much already despite the cards left him by junior -- the scholars are also anticipating more based on his intellect, passion, and empathy.
    accomplished a lot, all negative.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by 65fastback View Post
    this! Lincoln was HATED....but 100 years later, he's one of the best.
    100 years later, it's a completely different society judging him.
  16. #56  
    so which judgment is right? Then or 100 years later?
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    100 years later, it's a completely different society judging him.
    by when he died, Lincoln was loved -- there was a gigantic spontaneous outpouring of public grief like had never previously been seen.

    People traveled hours and hours to watch as his funeral train rolled past, bringing flowers in his honor (and apparently beginning the tradition of flowers honoring the deceased).

    The war had been won -- and Lincoln received much of the credit for the victory.

    But even mature intelligent southerners like Lee understood how much of a loss it was for the south when Lincoln was assassinated -- since Lincoln was almost alone amongst the political leadership in wanting a generous peace.
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  18. #58  
    @barye paid attention in history lass. Well done!
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Troll
    For those that think the stimulus was a wild success: What do you think would have happened without it? Would we carry on losing jobs ad infinitum? The inverted graph davidra seems so fond of posting looks surprisingly like what the jobs numbers would be if nothing was done. Really as we hear more about the waste and delay in the stimulus it really it did do nothing but waste half a trillion bucks.
    in the aftermath of junior's debacle, the credit markets had essentially frozen -- the banking system seized, and lending ceased.

    Mortgage loans could no longer be gotten no matter the credit worthiness of the borrower. Even businesses were having trouble getting their routine credit lines renewed and it became nearly impossible to borrow to refresh inventory, etc.

    The economic terror that began here soon encompassed the globe, and we were on the precipice of a catastrophic hole that could have been truly devastating.

    But this was nearly 3 years ago -- no one should be expected to remember events from such a distant past ...
    Last edited by berdinkerdickle; 07/05/2010 at 09:47 PM.
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    #60  
    That's funny... I'd placed Obama about 4 Presidents below GWB....


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