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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS1 View Post
    And please before you post anymore nonsense. read how health-care was provided to the needy before socialization.

    htt p://libertariannation.org/a/f12l3.html
    You're kidding, right? Lodge practice? Yeah, that would cover your MRI. Tell me, were you a Sue Lowden supporter? Do you have chickens? That is the most absurd description of the history of American medicine I have ever seen.
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Relax dude. What I have is observations, not complaints or solutions or fairy dust. No need to get all worked up.

    Not worked up at all, but don't you get frustrated by making observations about how bad the government runs things when you don't have even a clue as to how to do it any better? Do you think that actually is a valid way to discourse? Admittedly you appear to be a republican supporter, and that is their approach to governing, but you seem too alert to actually believe that is a way forward.
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post

    I wouldn't kill it, I'd give Americans the option to allow the government to continue to handle the money they've paid in (that seems to be working real well) or have some decision-making ability (ownership) of their money. But this stuff is way over my head, and I really don't know what I'm talking about. I just cringe when I think a portion of my retirement that I've paid into since I was 16 is being mismanaged by politicians.
    But you wouldn't cringe to have your future invested entirely and totally in Wall Street, with no security blanket?
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Not worked up at all, but don't you get frustrated by making observations about how bad the government runs things when you don't have even a clue as to how to do it any better? Do you think that actually is a valid way to discourse? Admittedly you appear to be a republican supporter, and that is their approach to governing, but you seem too alert to actually believe that is a way forward.
    Sometimes it gets frustrating, and certainly my way, making observations about what doesn't work with an occasional suggestion (not a solution), is not the way forward. But I don't think the progress (or lack thereof) on these boards will translate to Washington. I'm not a republican, but I do lean fiscally conservative. I'm anti gun, pro abortion, anti gay marriage, pro military, anti illegal immigration, pro states rights...i'm all over the road, so I don't really know what I am or which party I support. Regarding discourse, I like to discuss, without name calling and being told I'm dead wrong and someone else is absolutely right. And I don't think a working solution to the discussion is a prerequisite for posting.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    But you wouldn't cringe to have your future invested entirely and totally in Wall Street, with no security blanket?
    I cringe no matter what or who is dealing with my money, myself included. Much like my portfolio, some in CDs, some in funds, and some in stock, I'd like the govt to provide a choice. I'd probably go with a mixed-method approach, some in SS, some privately invested, and then cross my fingers for 30 years.
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I cringe no matter what or who is dealing with my money, myself included. Much like my portfolio, some in CDs, some in funds, and some in stock, I'd like the govt to provide a choice. I'd probably go with a mixed-method approach, some in SS, some privately invested, and then cross my fingers for 30 years.
    Here is where I put all of my money...

    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Are you asking me specifically? I don't remember making that claim. I'm not a fan of big, liberal spending govt who invests in car companies, banks, and healthcare nor am I a fan of libertarian-style minimalistic govt that leaves us alone, provides little, and assumes we'll be good humans while the free market works its magic. I would like to see a middle ground in a non-interventional govt. that pulls our resources back home, addresses our issues first (Africa, middle east, etc. would have to wait), and uses common sense when preparing budgets, proposing new programs, enacting laws, extending existing programs that don't work, etc. Please don't ask for specifics on this, I believe I'm on record many times admitting I have no viable answers.

    And what you said about the people being the problem, I couldn't agree more. Our ideas, liberal, conservative, libertarian--whatever, often involve good intent, but somehow the humans manage to mess it up. I don't agree with most of President Obamas methods, but I absolutely believe he is a good person who means well. Same with GWB, many of his decisions produced no results or much worse, but I believe he is a good person who wanted his presidency to produce positive results. But they are human and they err, its just that their errors, and those of congress, are far more consequencial than yours or mine.
    Good Luck
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by tcrunner View Post
    Unfortunately for the sake of civil discourse and forward progress, this could serve as a microcosm of America (the real world) today. It's enough, by some partisan measurements, to find fault without adding any balance to the equation. Which is not to say that imperfections don't exist. Those developing the solutions readily admit shortcomings are present in recovery plans. So, to pile on along with the rabid partisans who, predictably and childishly will resort to this as if it's encoded in their DNA, is less than what should reasonably be expected.

    I believe it was George H. W. Bush who once said "You cannot steer a ship which is not moving". Doing nothing is not an option where the underpinnings of our economy are concerned. Therefore solutions are demanded of every vested American.

    Partisan much?
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS2 View Post
    He has 8 sources. Feel free to read them and refute them.
    AND YOU HAVE at LEAST 3 (THREE) ACCOUNTS.

    NathanS
    NathanS1
    and
    NathanS2


    Feel free to refute them.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS2 View Post
    He has 8 sources. Feel free to read them and refute them.
    Sure. Right after you do. You see, I actually know something about the healthcare system. I participate in it first-hand. I'll be willing to bet the person that wrote that, a number of years ago (1992 to be exact) had no reference point to today. In 1990 health care made up 12% of the GDP. Now it makes up 18%. In 1992 there were no MRI's, there were no colonoscopies, there was no laparascopic surgery, drug costs were about half of what they are now.

    Additionally, the article is essentially an essay, having no data and no facts at all regarding what the author is proposing...and it was an incorrect view at that.

    Please. Don't go there. You are embarrassing yourself.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS2 View Post
    Since 1990 has government spent more or less on health care?

    The government? Everyone has spent more on health care due to technologic advances and dramatic increases in drug costs. Private insurers have spent more, individual policyholders have spent more, large corporations have spent more (which was, of course, the driving force behind the republican-sponsored HMO bill which was signed by Nixon...but I suppose you didn't know that). Government spent more as well, naturally. The only way it wouldn't would be through a national health plan, and something tells me you wouldn't really want that.
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    No Josh wasnt aimed at you,, just used your quote to point to the fact that certain right leaning members are not willing to answer questions when asked. yours and mine. They try, but fail, repeatedly.
    Ok, and I appreciate your choice of words. Some people on these boards use words like "all" and "none" and "every" and "never" to suggest that every liberal or every conservative is guilty of this thing I'm accusing them of. Gets old.

    And for the record, I'm not willing to provide definitive answers to questions unless I actually have one. Ideas, I've got plenty of them and they're not worth much.
    Last edited by joshaccount; 07/02/2010 at 12:29 PM.
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS2 View Post
    Technological advances? In what country did that happen? Private health care systems produce no innovation, only kill people and dump their bodies on the street. Innovation is a myth of the Conservative Media Conglomerate. Haven't you had your daily dose of MSNBC?

    Congrats. You got it. "Private health care systems" have hardly produced any technological innovation at all, without significant government funding. Spent any time around an academic health center? Or "private" research institute? Other than some drug research, I would be willing to bet that every major technological advance in medicine in the past thirty years has had a significant amount of governmental funding behind it. But feel free to give me some examples that prove otherwise.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS2 View Post
    This is like claiming Private roads fails because there are none.

    I suppose then I can interpret that (whatever it actually says) as agreeing that the government has been responsible for most of the technological advances that have put US health care where it is today....correct? For some reason private industry hasn't really stepped up, it appears.
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS2 View Post
    Actually I disagree. You have no evidence that the government has been responsible for the majority of innovations.

    Even if this were the case, it is not a market failure, actually a classical response. When the government invest, the market divest, and moves to other sectors. This is why stimulus is always a failure.
    Industry has spent a lot of money on research, almost all of it on drugs, and we are all paying excessively for that research. Other than that, I expect you would have great difficulty finding one important innovation that was not initially or partly funded by the NIH.

    And are you saying the health care system in terms of quality of technological care is a failure?
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by tcrunner View Post
    LMAO. Clearly, context and definition are beyond you where an objectively critical view of the historical record is concerned. "Partisanship" doesn't change the record.

    Clearly, partisanship is only cool if it's yours right? Your historical record portrays nothing but partisanship in every one of your posts, but don't let that get in the way of your hypocritical ways.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Sure. Right after you do. You see, I actually know something about the healthcare system. I participate in it first-hand. I'll be willing to bet the person that wrote that, a number of years ago (1992 to be exact) had no reference point to today. In 1990 health care made up 12% of the GDP. Now it makes up 18%. In 1992 there were no MRI's, there were no colonoscopies, there was no laparascopic surgery, drug costs were about half of what they are now.

    Additionally, the article is essentially an essay, having no data and no facts at all regarding what the author is proposing...and it was an incorrect view at that.

    Please. Don't go there. You are embarrassing yourself.

    Really, do tell.
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by tcrunner View Post
    Your best trick is to claim partisanship where it doesn't exist? I'm shocked and disappointed that you think you're the first to come up with such a lowbrow idea.
    No trickery required. Your views are quite flamboyant, haven't read anything but anti-conservative from one of you posts.
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by cjgem View Post
    Really, do tell.
    Allow me to rephrase. None of these including fiberoptic procedures were in wide use in the early 90's. There were essentially research techniques. The annual cost of screening by colonoscopy would exceed $7 billion. MRI's were only available at academic health centers. Now they reside in many private practices and are being proposed for routine breast cancer screening.
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by cjgem View Post
    No trickery required. Your views are quite flamboyant, haven't read anything but anti-conservative from one of you posts.

    Yeah, and you're the champion of progressive thought, aren't you?
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