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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    This has been my montra for years...

    I've asked the good people of these boards many times to provide a list of programs and services that government does well, without waste, quickly and efficiently, etc... I never get an answer.
    NASA

    Forestry services

    Post Office (although many like to state otherwise)

    Social Security (it was actually turning a profit until Reagan, and just about every president after him, started borrowing from it.)

    We have some of the best roads and interstates in the world.

    Medicare (this was also working well until politicians started messing with it)

    Our military
    Last edited by Kenanator; 07/01/2010 at 07:10 PM.
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    NASA

    Forestry services

    Post Office (although many like to state otherwise)

    Social Security (it was actually turning a profit until Reagan, and just about every president after him, started borrowing from it.)

    We have some of the best roads and interstates in the world.

    Medicare (this was also working well until polititions started messing with it)

    Our military
    Hey man don't forget the CMP!
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    This has been my montra for years...

    I've asked the good people of these boards many times to provide a list of programs and services that government does well, without waste, quickly and efficiently, etc... I never get an answer.
    Everything's relative, and the successes have varied over the years, but you could start with the FDA, the National Institutes of Health, the CDC, NASA, the GI Bill, the interstate highway system, the postal service, Head Start, the internet, the Peace Corps, the Consumer Product Safety Commission, the National Weather Service, the Coast Guard, the National Parks Service, and although I'm sure you'll say they're going bankrupt, Social Security and Medicare have saved countless thousands of the elderly and disabled from horrible circumstances. Just my opinion.
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    NASA

    Forestry services

    Post Office (although many like to state otherwise)

    Social Security (it was actually turning a profit until Reagan, and just about every president after him, started borrowing from it.)

    We have some of the best roads and interstates in the world.

    Medicare (this was also working well until politicians started messing with it)

    Our military
    Post office: Nearly bankrupt, lost 2.8 billion last year, prices go up/service goes down, etc. Private postal services do a better job for less money.

    Social Security: The government investing your money (and spending it while you're not looking) equals a common fear that when our kids retire there will be no social security. Politicians are government, when they mess with stuff, government doesn't work well.

    Roads and Interstates: MSNBC says "The U.S. highway system is broken. And it’s not clear where the money is going to come from to fix it. 33 percent of the nation's major roads are in poor or mediocre condition, 36 percent of major urban highways are congested, 26 percent of bridges are structurally deficient or functionally obsolete", etc.

    Medicare: MSNBC says "Medicare fraud - estimated now to total about $60 billion a year - has become one of, if not the most profitable crimes in America. Everyone cheats - companies, hospitals, patients, doctors, drug companies, and government agencies. Cheating goes on everywhere in the get well business." etc.

    Our military: San Francisco Chronicle says "The Department of Defense, already infamous for spending $640 for a toilet seat, once again finds itself under intense scrutiny, only this time because it couldn't account for more than a trillion dollars in financial transactions, not to mention dozens of tanks, missiles and planes." etc.

    Forestry Services: You win.
    Last edited by joshaccount; 07/01/2010 at 07:36 PM.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Everything's relative, and the successes have varied over the years, but you could start with the FDA, the National Institutes of Health, the CDC, NASA, the GI Bill, the interstate highway system, the postal service, Head Start, the internet, the Peace Corps, the Consumer Product Safety Commission, the National Weather Service, the Coast Guard, the National Parks Service, and although I'm sure you'll say they're going bankrupt, Social Security and Medicare have saved countless thousands of the elderly and disabled from horrible circumstances. Just my opinion.
    See my other post. Punching holes in the theory that a bloated, over-funded, under-producing, dishonest government run by politicians surrounded by lobbyists and perpetually seeking re-election is too easy.

    And you make good points. Social security and medicare do save countless thousands of elderly and disabled from crappy circumstances, but they do it with tremendous amounts of waste, red tape, long lines, etc. Welfare and unemployment are great too if you fall on hard times, but welfare and unemployment fraud, something the government cannot seem to solve, wastes billions of tax payer dollars.

    More/larger government offering more/bigger programs requiring more tax dollars we don't have (borrowed from SS?) is not a solution, IMO.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    See my other post. Punching holes in the theory that a bloated, over-funded, under-producing, dishonest government run by politicians surrounded by lobbyists and perpetually seeking re-election is too easy.

    And you make good points. Social security and medicare do save countless thousands of elderly and disabled from crappy circumstances, but they do it with tremendous amounts of waste, red tape, long lines, etc. Welfare and unemployment are great too if you fall on hard times, but welfare and unemployment fraud, something the government cannot seem to solve, wastes billions of tax payer dollars.
    .
    Then by all means punch holes in the other programs I listed. Please. And even more important, tell me how you would provide the services that Social Security and Medicare do without the government. Fairy dust? I can give you an example of private industry trying to do that that has failed miserably: Medicare Plus. As is said, you have no solutions, just complaints. Solve something, then complain.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Then by all means punch holes in the other programs I listed. Please. And even more important, tell me how you would provide the services that Social Security and Medicare do without the government. Fairy dust? I can give you an example of private industry trying to do that that has failed miserably: Medicare Plus. As is said, you have no solutions, just complaints. Solve something, then complain.
    Relax dude. What I have is observations, not complaints or solutions or fairy dust. No need to get all worked up.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Post office: Nearly bankrupt, lost 2.8 billion last year, prices go up/service goes down, etc. Private postal services do a better job for less money.
    Then enjoy mailing your personal bills via UPS and/or FedEx, because that is much cheaper...

    The only problem with the USPS is that it has been largely replaced by the Internet and e-mail and thus should be downsized and restructured.

    Social Security: The government investing your money (and spending it while you're not looking) equals a common fear that when our kids retire there will be no social security. Politicians are government, when they mess with stuff, government doesn't work well.
    And it was turning a profit before Reagan. Why kill a service that works because politicians were allowed to borrow from it? Why not just deny access to it from the administration?

    Roads and Interstates: MSNBC says "The U.S. highway system is broken. And it’s not clear where the money is going to come from to fix it. 33 percent of the nation's major roads are in poor or mediocre condition, 36 percent of major urban highways are congested, 26 percent of bridges are structurally deficient or functionally obsolete", etc.
    Awesome!!! Build new roads! Build interstate rapid transit! Think of all of the jobs that would create! Oh wait, conservatives do not want to pay for all of that. They only want to pay for wars....

    Medicare: MSNBC says "Medicare fraud - estimated now to total about $60 billion a year - has become one of, if not the most profitable crimes in America. Everyone cheats - companies, hospitals, patients, doctors, drug companies, and government agencies. Cheating goes on everywhere in the get well business." etc.
    Again. It was working great until politicians got their hands on it. Keep it hands off. Simple fix.

    BTW, how were seniors treated/quality of life before Medicare? Not good...

    Our military: San Francisco Chronicle says "The Department of Defense, already infamous for spending $640 for a toilet seat, once again finds itself under intense scrutiny, only this time because it couldn't account for more than a trillion dollars in financial transactions, not to mention dozens of tanks, missiles and planes." etc.
    So we should privatize the military? Oh wait, we did. Blackwater! How did that work out again?

    Forestry Services: You win.
    Last edited by Kenanator; 07/01/2010 at 07:57 PM.
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  9. #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    We have some of the best roads and interstates in the world.
    Those same roads that forced the average person into living miles from their jobs and driving a gasoline powered car, thus necessitating we drill Oil a mile beneath the surface of the ocean. That turned out real well.
  10. #90  
    And please before you post anymore nonsense. read how health-care was provided to the needy before socialization.

    htt p://libertariannation.org/a/f12l3.html
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Then enjoy mailing your personal bills via UPS and/or FedEx, because that is much cheaper...

    The only problem with the USPS is that it has been largely replaced by the Internet and e-mail and thus should be downsized and restructured.
    My bank mails my bills for me, via the internet. I agree, the internet has interfered with and will likely kill the USPS. Although I think they can adapt as opposed to going bankrupt. I'd like to see their operation downsized, streamlined, other buzz words, so it doesn't cost $11 dollars to stand in line and mail a small box that UPS will pick up for free, mail for less, provide free tracking info, more reliable, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    And it was turning a profit before Reagan. Why kill a service that works because politicians were allowed to borrow from it? Why not just deny access to it from the administration?
    I wouldn't kill it, I'd give Americans the option to allow the government to continue to handle the money they've paid in (that seems to be working real well) or have some decision-making ability (ownership) of their money. But this stuff is way over my head, and I really don't know what I'm talking about. I just cringe when I think a portion of my retirement that I've paid into since I was 16 is being mismanaged by politicians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Awesome!!! Build new roads! Build interstate rapid transit! Think of all of the jobs that would create! Oh wait, conservatives do not want to pay for all of that. They only want to pay for wars....
    Love rapid transit, we need more of it. Before we start building new roads, I think we should build better roads. We have smart people in this country, why can't roads be engineered to last longer(maybe there is a reason(s), I really don't know why)? My neighborhood is 8 years old and the roads (new 6 months before I built my house) are in terrible shape. Shouldn't a concrete road that gets very little traffic last longer than the crappy one-coat paint job the builders used on my house?

    Conservatives, it's not that they don't want to pay for stuff, they don't want to pay for stuff unless it's their idea or serves their agenda. If the Libs propose funds for new roads, Cons will kill it. If the Cons suggest it, I'm sure it'll get done somehow. Politics as usual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Again. It was working great until politicians got their hands on it. Keep it hands off. Simple fix.

    BTW, how were seniors treated/quality of life before Medicare? Not good...
    I think Medicare could be great, its not like they are defrauding themselves. It's all those darn humans out there that contribute to untold billions in Medicare fraud. If the government could solve all the dishonesty (never happen), I think we'd be looking at a good government program.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    So we should privatize the military? Oh wait, we did. Blackwater! How did that work out again?
    No to privatization. Just take some of the postal workers who will be downsized by the internet and turn them into auditors who's only function in life is to make sure the military can keep track of its planes, tanks, and trillion dollar bill
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    junior's emasculation of the SEC and other regulatory agencies is one of the primary factors that brought about the gravest economic crisis since the Great Depression -- a crisis that has devastated the world. This was an expression of his kind of lassez faire capitalism, a form of libertarianism.
    That has more to do with policies pushed by Rubin, Summers & Greenspan during the Clinton years. SEC regulation increased due to Sarbanes–Oxley (something most IT people hate) in 2002.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    So Teddy Roosevelt, a good republican, provided the impetus for progressivism, busted trusts and wanted to give people a "fair shake". McKinley, who is held up by many conservatives, presided over a tax rate of 50%. This country succeeded because of a combination of government and business, at a time when businesses weren't sending jobs overseas and had a commitment to the population instead of to shareholders. I realize that simplification is the easiest argument for conservatives, but that minimizes the need for the truth.
    The Federal income tax was established 12 years after he was dead with a top tax rate of 7%. You must be referring to the McKinley Tariff which was passed in 1890 when he was a congressman. FWIW, that high tariff was considered to be a contributing factor to the Panic of 1893. I also doubt that corporations at that time were any more loyal to the population than their shareholders as they are now. If that were so, "company towns" would have been great places to live.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    So you are happy with the job BP is doing to stop the leak? You do realize it is still leaking right? Have you noticed they have never tried to actually stop it but rather, they have only tried to control it. Gotta keep those profits up...
    The "Top Kill" procedure was meant to stop it, but it failed. Stopping it would be more profitable for BP than to just "control it". They aren't recovering all of the petroleum that is leaking, so the mess that they will have to pay to clean up gets bigger every day. A report that outlined all of the problems with the MMS came out in 2008. Why didn't Congress enact legislation to split it two years ago?
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS1 View Post
    Those same roads that forced the average person into living miles from their jobs and driving a gasoline powered car, thus necessitating we drill Oil a mile beneath the surface of the ocean. That turned out real well.
    You were "forced" to live far from your job?

    Were you "forced" to buy a car that is not fuel efficient or use public transportation?

    Weird...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS1 View Post
    And please before you post anymore nonsense. read how health-care was provided to the needy before socialization.

    htt p://libertariannation.org/a/f12l3.html
    LMAO at you telling me not to post "anymore nonsense" while you post a link to libertariannation.org. I can tell just by the URL that it will be nothing but unbiased and 100% true...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    My bank mails my bills for me, via the internet. I agree, the internet has interfered with and will likely kill the USPS. Although I think they can adapt as opposed to going bankrupt. I'd like to see their operation downsized, streamlined, other buzz words, so it doesn't cost $11 dollars to stand in line and mail a small box that UPS will pick up for free, mail for less, provide free tracking info, more reliable, etc....
    WOW UPS is free now, huh?
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    WOW UPS is free now, huh?
    They pick packages up for free, some companies assess charges in addition to shipping for picking up your packages. They also fill out shipping forms for you (USPS won't do this), provide tracking info for free (USPS charges for this service), allow you to "run a tab" and pay monthly (USPS won't do this), and make multiple deliveries/pickups in the same day. These experiences are 9 months old, when I used to manage a clinic. Maybe some of their policies have changed?
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    And it was turning a profit before Reagan. Why kill a service that works because politicians were allowed to borrow from it? Why not just deny access to it from the administration?
    Actually before Reagan, Social Security admin was over estimating the cost of living adjustments causing unsustainable increases in benefit payouts and it had over optimistic economic assumptions for projecting income. The result of which was that Social Security was actually projected to run out of money in late 1983 and not be able to pay benefits. The changes made during the Reagan administration (accelerating payroll tax changes, increasing the number of people paying into the system, refactoring COLA increases, increasing full retirement age,etc) helped keep it going until today. The practice of counting SS Trust Fund money as "on budget" began in 1968 under Johnson. Since 1990 it was supposed to be considered off budget, but the excess from it is still often included when publishing budget deficits/surpluses.
  18.    #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    This has been my montra for years...

    I've asked the good people of these boards many times to provide a list of programs and services that government does well, without waste, quickly and efficiently, etc... I never get an answer.
    And I asked for a single country that has run under this mythical limited govt and free market successfully.. someone pointed at the first 200 years of America,, i pointed back with a list of recessions, panics and depressions that put paid to America ever being a successful free market system.. sooo care to point out where your supposedly great system actually works or worked.
    Both sides have faults, and I will point once again, from several posts on different threads, the biggest fault is the people who work, run and invest in any business or political party.. WE ARE THE PROBLEM.. I am sure your system would work great,, just take the people out of the equation
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    And I asked for a single country that has run under this mythical limited govt and free market successfully.. someone pointed at the first 200 years of America,, i pointed back with a list of recessions, panics and depressions that put paid to America ever being a successful free market system.. sooo care to point out where your supposedly great system actually works or worked.
    Both sides have faults, and I will point once again, from several posts on different threads, the biggest fault is the people who work, run and invest in any business or political party.. WE ARE THE PROBLEM.. I am sure your system would work great,, just take the people out of the equation
    Are you asking me specifically? I don't remember making that claim. I'm not a fan of big, liberal spending govt who invests in car companies, banks, and healthcare nor am I a fan of libertarian-style minimalistic govt that leaves us alone, provides little, and assumes we'll be good humans while the free market works its magic. I would like to see a middle ground in a non-interventional govt. that pulls our resources back home, addresses our issues first (Africa, middle east, etc. would have to wait), and uses common sense when preparing budgets, proposing new programs, enacting laws, extending existing programs that don't work, etc. Please don't ask for specifics on this, I believe I'm on record many times admitting I have no viable answers.

    And what you said about the people being the problem, I couldn't agree more. Our ideas, liberal, conservative, libertarian--whatever, often involve good intent, but somehow the humans manage to mess it up. I don't agree with most of President Obamas methods, but I absolutely believe he is a good person who means well. Same with GWB, many of his decisions produced no results or much worse, but I believe he is a good person who wanted his presidency to produce positive results. But they are human and they err, its just that their errors, and those of congress, are far more consequencial than yours or mine.
  20.    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Are you asking me specifically? I don't remember making that claim. I'm not a fan of big, liberal spending govt who invests in car companies, banks, and healthcare nor am I a fan of libertarian-style minimalistic govt that leaves us alone, provides little, and assumes we'll be good humans while the free market works its magic. I would like to see a middle ground in a non-interventional govt. that pulls our resources back home, addresses our issues first (Africa, middle east, etc. would have to wait), and uses common sense when preparing budgets, proposing new programs, enacting laws, extending existing programs that don't work, etc. Please don't ask for specifics on this, I believe I'm on record many times admitting I have no viable answers.

    And what you said about the people being the problem, I couldn't agree more. Our ideas, liberal, conservative, libertarian--whatever, often involve good intent, but somehow the humans manage to mess it up. I don't agree with most of President Obamas methods, but I absolutely believe he is a good person who means well. Same with GWB, many of his decisions produced no results or much worse, but I believe he is a good person who wanted his presidency to produce positive results. But they are human and they err, its just that their errors, and those of congress, are far more consequencial than yours or mine.
    No Josh wasnt aimed at you,, just used your quote to point to the fact that certain right leaning members are not willing to answer questions when asked. yours and mine. They try, but fail, repeatedly.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
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