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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by tcrunner View Post
    It's this false-choice that tries to have us believe that everything is Left/Right. If you were actually familiar with the scope of political leanings, you'd know that Anarchists are a subset of Libertarians, and therefore, are located South of Center.

    HUH? Libertarians by definition are strong supporters of capitalism and free trade. These people were protesting the G8/G20 summit which all about trade?

    Anarchists are not a subset of libertarianism or of anything else...they are just a a subset of their own loony selves...



    Fyi, here's a decent article explaining some of the various political spectrum graphs out there....

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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by tcrunner View Post
    It's this false-choice that tries to have us believe that everything is Left/Right. If you were actually familiar with the scope of political leanings, you'd know that Anarchists are a subset of Libertarians, and therefore, are located South of Center.
    It's false-choice that would have us believe these tactics were developed by anarchists.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    But as to your other question -- no I don't think racism is what energizes teabagggers, libertarians, LaRoucheys, Palinistas, or RPaulites.

    I believe what animates these groups is ignorance, anger, confusion, and incomprehension. They are pathetically susceptible to the siren calls of articulate smooth talking charismatic snake oil salesmen like Beck, Rush, LaRouche, Palin, etc. etc.

    These people are angry and scared -- and they often have good reasons to be angry and scared. But they are usually too uninformed as to the genuine often complex and indirect reasons for their plight -- and so gravitate to the snake oil purveyors like moths to flames.

    These forces have long existed -- but mass communication and greed (faux) have greatly magnified the threat these forces represent.

    Their destructive potential is ginormous.
    Hosanna.

    Without "ignorance, anger, confusion and incomprehension" we wouldn't have republicants and Paultards pushing such nonsense as death panels and pulling the plug on grandma, or claiming that Obama isn't born in the US, or that he's a socialist (which I put at the same level of incomprehension as death panels). You can also include apologizing to BP, claiming that the GOP is the party of fiscal discipline, and that Ronald Reagan cut more taxes than any other president on that list.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Paultards
    Ban?
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS View Post
    Ban?
    if brevity equaled brilliance, you would tower above us all.

    But forgive please, this rather diminutive simian's obtuseness -- what is it that you are saying ???
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  6. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    These people are angry and scared -- and they often have good reasons to be angry and scared. But they are usually too uninformed as to the genuine often complex and indirect reasons for their plight -- and so gravitate to the snake oil purveyors like moths to flames.
    One of the best explanations for the Presidential Election of 2008 I've heard yet.

    Incidentally, for the morons who whine and cry about people calling Obama socialist...you are right. Yes, I said it--you are right. While, the use of political pull to manipulate companies such as GM and Chrysler into becoming slush-funds to pay off your Union supporters, and turning financial institutions into puppets (akin to the Fannie and Freddies of the world, that were used with full government knowledge and cooperation to enable the ruin of economy) are socialistic, they are not strictly socialism. Crony capitalism and mass media as political propagandists (thanks GE/MSNBC) aren't socialism necessarily--its more like fascism.

    Calling massive gains for statism "reform" is pure propaganda of course, which is cheered by the "the end justifies the means" sociopaths (some of which we have in this forum), but not socialism.

    Socialism is actually a principled system; one I disagree with as being anti-freedom (economic specifically) and anti-individual, but at least has SOME rational basis. What we're seeing today is no such thing. It's just blatant thuggery, not unlike that which has been seen throughout history.

    Now of course this supposedly humorous thread is little more than a rush to make a joke out of something that if considered seriously would of course point out the massive hypocrisy of many of the idiots here who attack tea partiers as violent, while ignoring the leftist (so-called "anarchists"--which may exist independently, but are likely to be in the leftist crowd, NOT the libertarian, conservative one) protests that are regularly violent.

    See...you make a "joke" out of it to distract from the fact that this is yet another perfect (and current) example of the outright lies that people here have depended on to attack people that disagree with them, and the object of their blind worship.

    Also...LaRouche is a SOCIALIST-type (although is own bizarre brand) who ran for the Democrat nomination several times. Placing this left-wing (or nut-wing) with conservatives or libertarians is not even close. He was the sort of Labor Leader that people that are in bed with Unions like SEIU might have more in common with.

    To conclude...as usual, more of the same misdirection, lies and ignorance that is used as an accusation against those who aren't running around breaking windows, smashing up police cars, etc.

    What's really interesting is to realize exactly how scared all the leftists are. REALLY quaking in your boots now aren't you?

    Why bother with honesty, when more propaganda BS will do? Right?

    KAM
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    One of the best explanations for the Presidential Election of 2008 I've heard yet.

    Incidentally, for the morons who whine and cry about people calling Obama socialist...you are right. Yes, I said it--you are right. While, the use of political pull to manipulate companies such as GM and Chrysler into becoming slush-funds to pay off your Union supporters, and turning financial institutions into puppets (akin to the Fannie and Freddies of the world, that were used with full government knowledge and cooperation to enable the ruin of economy) are socialistic, they are not strictly socialism. Crony capitalism and mass media as political propagandists (thanks GE/MSNBC) aren't socialism necessarily--its more like fascism.

    Calling massive gains for statism "reform" is pure propaganda of course, which is cheered by the "the end justifies the means" sociopaths (some of which we have in this forum), but not socialism.

    Socialism is actually a principled system; one I disagree with as being anti-freedom (economic specifically) and anti-individual, but at least has SOME rational basis. What we're seeing today is no such thing. It's just blatant thuggery, not unlike that which has been seen throughout history.

    Now of course this supposedly humorous thread is little more than a rush to make a joke out of something that if considered seriously would of course point out the massive hypocrisy of many of the idiots here who attack tea partiers as violent, while ignoring the leftist (so-called "anarchists"--which may exist independently, but are likely to be in the leftist crowd, NOT the libertarian, conservative one) protests that are regularly violent.

    See...you make a "joke" out of it to distract from the fact that this is yet another perfect (and current) example of the outright lies that people here have depended on to attack people that disagree with them, and the object of their blind worship.

    Also...LaRouche is a SOCIALIST-type (although is own bizarre brand) who ran for the Democrat nomination several times. Placing this left-wing (or nut-wing) with conservatives or libertarians is not even close. He was the sort of Labor Leader that people that are in bed with Unions like SEIU might have more in common with.

    To conclude...as usual, more of the same misdirection, lies and ignorance that is used as an accusation against those who aren't running around breaking windows, smashing up police cars, etc.

    What's really interesting is to realize exactly how scared all the leftists are. REALLY quaking in your boots now aren't you?

    Why bother with honesty, when more propaganda BS will do? Right?

    KAM
    its good to again have your voice Kam -- but as usual I'm running out and you say too much to briefly respond to -- (nor can I just sluff it off with wit) ...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  8. Micael's Avatar
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Micael -- I think you're confused by my repeated complaints regarding my being the victim of speciesism:

    But as to your other question -- no I don't think racism is what energizes teabagggers, libertarians, LaRoucheys, Palinistas, or RPaulites.

    I believe what animates these groups is ignorance, anger, confusion, and incomprehension. They are pathetically susceptible to the siren calls of articulate smooth talking charismatic snake oil salesmen like Beck, Rush, LaRouche, Palin, etc. etc.

    These people are angry and scared -- and they often have good reasons to be angry and scared. But they are usually too uninformed as to the genuine often complex and indirect reasons for their plight -- and so gravitate to the snake oil purveyors like moths to flames.

    These forces have long existed -- but mass communication and greed (faux) have greatly magnified the threat these forces represent.

    Their destructive potential is ginormous.
    Wow... so all of these people are angry, ignorant, confused, and incomprehensible... mind-numb robots - easily led astray.

    And I suppose your ilk hold the antithesis of each of these traits? Your way is the only way? None of these people have good ideas, legitimate concerns, able to think for themselves?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. #29  
    Fish On.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kewl 700p View Post
    Socialism caused the riots.
    Despite a couple of misguided posters that think so, socialism is completely at odds with libertarianism. Communism and Capitalism can both coexist with libertarianism, but socialism, requiring a strong state by definition, cannot.

    That being said, I think one of the greatest gaffes Obama has ever made is being overlooked in all this. He had the sheer unmitigated gall to perpetuate the lie that the Brits serve their beer warm. The facts of the matter is that while ales are fermented warmer than lagers, they are generally served at cellar temperature. Generally, this means ~50-55F. While slightly less cold than optimal lager serving temps of ~40-50F, it is madness to consider this warm. Just because Big Beer has managed to cram sub freezing temperatures as optimal into our psyches, Obama was supposed to stop business as usual. Even Goose Island plainly states that the optimal serving temperature for 312 is around 40F. sheeple.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    But forgive please, this rather diminutive simian's obtuseness -- what is it that you are saying ???
    Sometimes people that get banned (either temporarily or permanently) find ways to come back and express their displeasure and feelings that everyone else is just like them and should suffer the same.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaurav View Post
    HUH? Libertarians by definition are strong supporters of capitalism and free trade. These people were protesting the G8/G20 summit which all about trade?

    Anarchists are not a subset of libertarianism or of anything else...they are just a a subset of their own loony selves...[/url]
    This is not so. Libertarians, by definition, are supporters of _liberty_. There are many subsets of libertarianism. Anarcho-capitalists and anarcho-communists can both fairly be considered libertarian. Anarchists are part of the libertarian brotherhood since they advocate total freedom from statism. Personally, I'm minarchist since I think that there should be some form of state to protect the freedoms of the people and provide some basic level of services which can usually be handled more efficiently than private sector could manage on its own.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    One of the best explanations for the Presidential Election of 2008 I've heard yet.

    Incidentally, for the morons who whine and cry about people calling Obama socialist...you are right. Yes, I said it--you are right. While, the use of political pull to manipulate companies such as GM and Chrysler into becoming slush-funds to pay off your Union supporters, and turning financial institutions into puppets (akin to the Fannie and Freddies of the world, that were used with full government knowledge and cooperation to enable the ruin of economy) are socialistic, they are not strictly socialism. Crony capitalism and mass media as political propagandists (thanks GE/MSNBC) aren't socialism necessarily--its more like fascism.

    Calling massive gains for statism "reform" is pure propaganda of course, which is cheered by the "the end justifies the means" sociopaths (some of which we have in this forum), but not socialism.

    Socialism is actually a principled system; one I disagree with as being anti-freedom (economic specifically) and anti-individual, but at least has SOME rational basis. What we're seeing today is no such thing. It's just blatant thuggery, not unlike that which has been seen throughout history.

    Now of course this supposedly humorous thread is little more than a rush to make a joke out of something that if considered seriously would of course point out the massive hypocrisy of many of the idiots here who attack tea partiers as violent, while ignoring the leftist (so-called "anarchists"--which may exist independently, but are likely to be in the leftist crowd, NOT the libertarian, conservative one) protests that are regularly violent.

    See...you make a "joke" out of it to distract from the fact that this is yet another perfect (and current) example of the outright lies that people here have depended on to attack people that disagree with them, and the object of their blind worship.

    Also...LaRouche is a SOCIALIST-type (although is own bizarre brand) who ran for the Democrat nomination several times. Placing this left-wing (or nut-wing) with conservatives or libertarians is not even close. He was the sort of Labor Leader that people that are in bed with Unions like SEIU might have more in common with.

    To conclude...as usual, more of the same misdirection, lies and ignorance that is used as an accusation against those who aren't running around breaking windows, smashing up police cars, etc.

    What's really interesting is to realize exactly how scared all the leftists are. REALLY quaking in your boots now aren't you?

    Why bother with honesty, when more propaganda BS will do? Right?

    KAM
    roflmsao.. wow.. KAM my original post was a joke,,, geeezzz chill .. The biggest thing that bothered us Canadians is the fact that the damn rioting was so UNCanadian. We are as diverse as our good neighbors to the south in our political leanings. Go to the West Coast, for example, BC has voted Socialist more often then all most all the other provinces, EXCEPT, Sask. The birthplace of the NDP, which is in talks if rumor has it, to merge with the liberal party, your version of the Dems. Which is farther right then ever before in its history. Presently BC is run by the BC liberal party, which by its stance in Canadian politics, is very right wing. Its liberal in name only. Hell the Alberta govt is more right wing then your Republican party. They damn near banned all unions, associations etc etc..
    The anarchists well they dont like the G20, or G8, their general feelings are that at the most, what is being discussed by the G20 nations should be done in the UN. Mostly they are against everything that is remotely organized. I have several friends who are plain and simple anarchists, two of which i am positive were in Toronto on the weekend. Misdirection, lol, simple they attacked the cops with bricks sticks rocks, smoke bombs and molotov cocktails. set fire to vehicles, smashed windows. Thats what the issue is up here, even people who were peaceably protesting against this summit, feel the movement was hijacked by these people.

    One of the tenets of their belief system is NO GOVT or as little as possible. hmmmmm much like a certain group south of the border.. to call them socialist is misdirection, they want to control things the way they think things should be run,,, mind you most of them can not keep a job. The problem with them in control, they feel that regular violent overthrow of the govt, all govt, is good for the system.. hmm again some similar thought patterns..
    NOW, go back an read the title of my original post, at the end its says lol, laugh out loud,,, for pete sakes people it was meant as a joke.. gesssshhh
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    roflmsao.. wow.. KAM my original post was a joke,,, geeezzz chill .. The biggest thing that bothered us Canadians is the fact that the damn rioting was so UNCanadian.
    Complete BS. I remember when Jaymz got burnt, and Axl threw a tantrum in 1992. Those Montreal folks burned the building down.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Complete BS. I remember when Jaymz got burnt, and Axl threw a tantrum in 1992. Those Montreal folks burned the building down.
    sorry i lived in BC back then,, not sure what they were saying out here in ontario,, in bc different story..
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Wow... so all of these people are angry, ignorant, confused, and incomprehensible... mind-numb robots - easily led astray.

    And I suppose your ilk hold the antithesis of each of these traits? Your way is the only way? None of these people have good ideas, legitimate concerns, able to think for themselves?
    Yup -- you've summed things up well for me Micael --

    (I'd make you my spokeshuman, but I can never be sure you'd read what BARYE actually writes ...)
    Last edited by BARYE; 06/30/2010 at 03:33 AM.
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  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    One of the best explanations for the Presidential Election of 2008 I've heard yet.

    Incidentally, for the morons who whine and cry about people calling Obama socialist...you are right. Yes, I said it--you are right. While, the use of political pull to manipulate companies such as GM and Chrysler into becoming slush-funds to pay off your Union supporters, and turning financial institutions into puppets (akin to the Fannie and Freddies of the world, that were used with full government knowledge and cooperation to enable the ruin of economy) are socialistic, they are not strictly socialism. Crony capitalism and mass media as political propagandists (thanks GE/MSNBC) aren't socialism necessarily--its more like fascism.

    Calling massive gains for statism "reform" is pure propaganda of course, which is cheered by the "the end justifies the means" sociopaths (some of which we have in this forum), but not socialism...
    hard to know where to go with you on all this -- the massive deregulation of mega business during Raygun's and junior's years brought about unprecedented "statist" concentration of both economic and political power.

    Their governments were more collaborators than overseers of corporations.

    Raygun and junior were both believers in the laissez faire liberation of large corporations. Both their administrations strove to "free" oil companies, Wall Street investment companies, and banks of supervision and regulation. They saw progressive taxation, "Death Taxes", and environmental supervision as contrary to organic free ranging capitalism.

    junior tried to privatize Social Security. Raygun was proud of his role in breaking unions (starting with his destruction of the air traffic controllers union. )

    Under those administrations wealth became increasingly concentrated with the powerful -- while middle class jobs were exported, and whole industries outsourced to poor, low wage, unregulated economies.

    Big oil (under cheney) effectively became deregulated (ie "self regulated") making the Gulf catastrophe almost inevitable. (Does Obama share some responsibility for not being more aggressive during his first year, focusing more on this industry, upending the incestrial relationships that had become ingrained during the cheney years ?? Yes. But given the desperate state of the economy, and the repeated assurance from GOPers and the industry itself that oil drilling was 1000% safe, the inaction is more than understandable.)

    junior's emasculation of the SEC and other regulatory agencies is one of the primary factors that brought about the gravest economic crisis since the Great Depression -- a crisis that has devastated the world. This was an expression of his kind of lassez faire capitalism, a form of libertarianism. .

    Socialism, fascism, libertarianism. These are words thrown around casually in school yard debate circles and internet forums. It must be confusing that China still calls itself communist. Does any of the real world conform to a textbook definition of any of these terms ??

    Canada, Europe, and Scandinavia -- they all happen to be much much more socialistic than america could ever be. Scandinavia in particular seems to have survived taxing the rich and providing health care to all, rather well. Personal freedom and liberty does not seem in any danger there.

    Tea-baggers and the right like to toss around the accusation that democrats are "socialist" (like tea-baggers really understand anything.)

    That rescuing the banks, Wall Street, and the car companies was a "statist" power grab on the road to making america socialist.

    David Koresh , Jim Jones, Charles Manson, The Moonies -- were they, are they socialists ?? What do any of these groups ideological definitions really mean or matter. (FWIW, LaRouche became a violently anti-leftist righty in ‘73.)

    Until they are in trouble and need help (like in the Gulf), Tea-baggers and libertarians are angrily anti-government. Ron Paul (who I’ve heard speak, and spoken to briefly) advocates shutting down the Federal Reserve, repealing most environmental laws, tariffs, and most functions of the government.

    The “black block” protesters who break windows at G8 meetings are advocates of anarchy. Anarchy is simply the purest form of libertarianism. Tea-baggers frequently connect themselves (mindlessly, knowing little of what it all means) with libertarianism -- as such the association with the G8 anarchists is fair, if also consciously ironic.

    Its been pointed out correctly by others that most of the angry words in this debate have come from you and your side -- not the left. Perhaps its because we understand how psychically disturbing it must be for your side to confront the logical intellectual distillation of your beliefs -- which really is anarchy.
    Last edited by BARYE; 06/30/2010 at 05:47 AM.
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  18. #38  
    Good ole boy Rand Paul: "It's time to take our country back"....from the administration that was duly and legally elected by the population of the United States. Is this not a pretty good blueprint for anarchy?

    LOS ANGELES — Nevada Senate candidate Sharron Angle backed away Tuesday from remarks in which she referred to the Second Amendment right to bear arms and the need to "take ... out" Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid.

    Angle, in her first extended Nevada interview since winning the June 8 primary, said she was speaking broadly about the Constitution and her words about the Democratic leader were "a little strong."

    The Republican nominee stopped short of an apology but said she no longer uses that phrase.
    Hey...let's just kill those we disagree with, OK? But we're not anarchists. We just play one on the stump.
  19. groovy's Avatar
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Good ole boy Rand Paul: "It's time to take our country back"....from the administration that was duly and legally elected by the population of the United States. Is this not a pretty good blueprint for anarchy?
    The question is how he was proposing to take the country back. If he was proposing to do it at the ballot box, which is fairly obvious, then what makes him different than the scores of politicians who've used the same language in the past?

    Hey...let's just kill those we disagree with, OK? But we're not anarchists. We just play one on the stump.
    Do you really think she, or 99.9999% of people listening (those without mental disorders), thought that reference meant "kill"? Honestly?
  20.    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    The question is how he was proposing to take the country back. If he was proposing to do it at the ballot box, which is fairly obvious, then what makes him different than the scores of politicians who've used the same language in the past?



    Do you really think she, or 99.9999% of people listening (those without mental disorders), thought that reference meant "kill"? Honestly?
    all it takes is that .0001% that takes it seriously.. We hold our baseball players, football players, etc etc to a higher standard, at least in theory, should not our elected officials be held to that same high standard when they open mouth and insert foot.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
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