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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by tcrunner View Post
    Since you scoff at the notion that the term socialism has a consistent central definition which flies in the face of the actual Obama record, responding to your query is only likely to be met with more of the same. Given that as emblematic, all the partisan tripe against Obama is whining. To your mind, that certainly equates to my declaring Obama as perfect and above reproach, however, that is neither what I said or what I intimated.

    The cheaply dirty politics of the losing side of a historic election is disappointing, to put it very mildly. And by America remembering this period, conservatives only dig their hole even deeper.
    Wow....you take yourself way to seriously. You must be a very important person wherever you live. But to me, you are really not very important.....so no reason to act like you sit upon a pedestal looking down on everyone. Hey, are you a doctor? But, you do seem to have quite an image of yourself.
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  2.    #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    You didn't really ask whether I liked his music or not, you just assumed that I'm into lynching. Funny, never heard anyone else comment about that song and the lyrics. I guess I just don't hang out with the type of people that are always looking for ways to label someone a racist. But, as usual, davidra is playing the race card It's funny how democrats, no matter what the situation, tend to always come back to black and white. When in doubt....accuse the person of being a racist. Heavy sigh.....
    I don't recall saying anything about you being into lynching. I must say I'm not surprised that you don't hang out with people who are looking for things to label racist, though. Seriously. I posted about a country singer being accused of being racist. You posted your opinions about Springsteen. Good for you. Those are opinions, not facts. Sometimes you get those things confused. And as I'm sure you remember, it was you who played the race card most recently, talking about the supporters of the Duly Elected President of the United States.
  3. Micael's Avatar
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    #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I don't recall saying anything about you being into lynching. I must say I'm not surprised that you don't hang out with people who are looking for things to label racist, though. Seriously. I posted about a country singer being accused of being racist. You posted your opinions about Springsteen. Good for you. Those are opinions, not facts. Sometimes you get those things confused. And as I'm sure you remember, it was you who played the race card most recently, talking about the supporters of the Duly Elected President of the United States.
    "being accused of being racist" is just that, an accusation based on opinion - not fact. I guess you sometimes get those things confused.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4.    #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    "being accused of being racist" is just that, an accusation based on opinion - not fact. I guess you sometimes get those things confused.
    Sorry...you're missing who is actually confused. I didn't accuse anyone of being racist. I posted a link in which somebody did. Pretty clear to me. Personally, I have no opinion one way or another. I've never heard the song, because I don't like Toby Keith. That, by the way, is a fact.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by tcrunner View Post
    I'm on no one's pedestal, but if taking the warmed-over heat of partisans is the price to be paid for treating politics with a degree of sobriety, don't let me get in the way of your whine-fest.

    Just don't expect to be allowed to get away with those falsehoods being perpetuated.
    You know....the difference between me and you and davidra is that I have made it quite clear in many posts that I respect your right to your opinions and beliefs. Go back and look. Now, just because I respect your right to have these opinions and beliefs, does not mean that I have to agree with them. But all I hear from either of you is that if a person doesn't share the same beliefs, then they are idiots or don't have a single opinion that is their own (you know, we all say what Linbaugh and Beck say, right?)

    I would not say that you should necessarily judge a person's intelligence by his or her success in life, as I guess an ***** could stumble upon something and be successful. But, for the most part, to become successful one has to have a little bit of smarts and the ability to deal with situations as they come along. Davidra has painted me on several occasions as a dumb racist redneck Clemson grad from SC (in fact just yesterday davidra said about me, "I mean, he does have a lot in common with Orson Welles. He doesn't have any cogent thoughts either, being dead and all.")....and that's fine....whatever. I guess that is how davidra deals with people when he can't come up with anything else. I'm comfortable enough with myself to know that isn't me (well, I am a Clemson grad and am from SC), and have been successful enough in my business life to know that I'm not an *****. I have run a small business by myself for 25 years....just me....no help and I would say that if I opened up my financial records most people would be rather impressed....in other words....I've been successful. And by the way, I didn't inherit wealth and unless my parents have been hiding something from me, I won't be inheriting wealth.

    So, you can sit there up on your little pedestal and knock my opinions and beliefs, but your belittling comments about my intelligence just won't fly with me. I will continue to knock a President that has an agenda that if it was left totally to his prerogative, he would have us going the way of socialism. Can he get us there? Well, as I've said before, I hope the DeMint's of our Congress will do all they can do to block that from happening. And I respect your right to disagree with that.
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  6. #126  
    I have posted definitions of socialism in here on several occasions that represent to me what Obama would like to do....you disagree....and that is fine. You simply don't want to respect those definitions because you want to defend your "man"....fine....I understand you love the dude....great....fine.....whoopeee.

    Let me ask you something, do you think you are going to change my mind regarding my belief that he has a socialist agenda? Do you? Again, if I was the only one that thought this I would probably start to question myself, but, I am not alone on this opinion.

    If it is your opinion that Bush was like "der fuhrer", fine, I could care less. I wouldn't agree with that statement, but you have every right to believe it. I never got the connection, just as apparently you don't get the connection of obama to socialism. But I do respect your right to that opinion. Too many good Americans died, got injured, and gave up much to guarantee you that right.

    I respect davidra's right to fight like crazy for universal health care. I disagree with his thoughts on that, but I do respect his opinion and understand to some degree why he believe what he does. But you guys only respect someone's opinion if it meshes with your own. I'm not going to attack you for that (besides, I think I'm still on double secret probation), but I will point out that is how I see it.
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  7.    #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    You know....the difference between me and you and davidra is that I have made it quite clear in many posts that I respect your right to your opinions and beliefs. Go back and look. Now, just because I respect your right to have these opinions and beliefs, does not mean that I have to agree with them. But all I hear from either of you is that if a person doesn't share the same beliefs, then they are idiots or don't have a single opinion that is their own (you know, we all say what Linbaugh and Beck say, right?)

    I would not say that you should necessarily judge a person's intelligence by his or her success in life, as I guess an ***** could stumble upon something and be successful. But, for the most part, to become successful one has to have a little bit of smarts and the ability to deal with situations as they come along. Davidra has painted me on several occasions as a dumb racist redneck Clemson grad from SC (in fact just yesterday davidra said about me, "I mean, he does have a lot in common with Orson Welles. He doesn't have any cogent thoughts either, being dead and all.")....and that's fine....whatever. I guess that is how davidra deals with people when he can't come up with anything else. I'm comfortable enough with myself to know that isn't me (well, I am a Clemson grad and am from SC), and have been successful enough in my business life to know that I'm not an *****. I have run a small business by myself for 25 years....just me....no help and I would say that if I opened up my financial records most people would be rather impressed....in other words....I've been successful. And by the way, I didn't inherit wealth and unless my parents have been hiding something from me, I won't be inheriting wealth.
    I met some of the smartest people I've ever known when I was living in the Appalachian portion of Tennessee. They were ex coal miners and few of them even had a high school education. They were also my friends. And they knew enough to not confuse opinions with facts. In my mind there is no association between being and acting smart and your educational level. Going to college does not imbue you with the ability to discern facts from opinions.

    Calling the President of the United States a socialist, or having a socialist agenda, is not an opinion. It's wrong, by any definition of socialism. And your only response can be "well, I think he's heading in that direction, so I'll use the term". Is it beyond you to see how infantile that is?

    Yes, I give you a hard time about being from SC, primarily because the entire state appears to be politically dysfunctional and you seem to be quite happy with that. Mostly I give you a hard time because you just can't seem to accept the fact that you really do dislike the Duly Elected President of the United States of America. You seem to echo DeMint's waterloo credo; there is nothing about what he does that is political that you agree with. There were, for example, things I agreed with W about, and I've posted about them (primarily, his efforts in providing AIDS treatment to Africa). And the easiest thing to give you hard time about is being from Clemson. But that's really too easy.
  8. Micael's Avatar
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    #128  
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9.    #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Lamar Alexander has already gone there.....


    On CBS’ Face the Nation, Sen. Lamar Alexander (R-TN) — who spends a lot of his time fearmongering about various government takeovers — seemed to advocate that the government simply take over BP entirely.
    Alexander: There’s one thing [the administration] could do. Under the law, they could fire BP and take it over. But the truth is the federal government probably doesn’t have the capacity to do that. [...]
    Q: But would you favor taking over BP if that became necessary?
    Alexander: Sure, that’s up to the President to decide…Under the law the federal government can take it over if they choose. And I understand why they might not choose, but that option exists.

    GOP Sen Lamar Alexander Advocates "Government Takeover" of BP Oil | NowPublic News Coverage
  10. #130  
    Okay....so in your own words (davidra and tcrunner), please teach me what socialism is. I want to learn from you. Thank you.
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  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    hmmm perhaps I got something out of that,,,, the first part where the president of Shell, said you have to allow us to drill for more reserves, implying that they needed to go everywhere, OR you me us will harken back to the good ol days of 5 bucks a gallon.
    1) i figure it will be 10 bucks a gallon any way, the excuse will be ohh it costs us more to drill in the deeps of the ocean,
    2) that you will have more spills like this, and you will still be paying 15 bucks a gallon so we can clean up the mess... lol.. not to mention that a Repulcian also said the same thing,,, hmmmmm i know i know,, you want me to comment on the socialist thing,, lol.. she screwed up.. period.. ohh and we have a company up here in canada,, called petro can,, was owned and operated by the govt at one point,,,,, now in the hands of share holders.. better watch out boys,, us big bad canadians are secretly socialists,, looking to socialize the good ol US of A,, turn your armed forces in to peace keepers,, etc etc lolol
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  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Holy cow!....if I lived in TN I'd either be demanding some type of explanation or I would not be voting for him. Sounds like TN could use a few DeMints up there. And you know what? If DeMint said the same thing, I'd be calling for his head to. I'll be interested in seeing how this plays out.

    Okay.....I have some additional questions regarding this statement and socialism, but first, waiting for my first lesson on what socialism is! I am one excited student! Ready to learn here.
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  13.    #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Holy cow!....if I lived in TN I'd either be demanding some type of explanation or I would not be voting for him. Sounds like TN could use a few DeMints up there. And you know what? If DeMint said the same thing, I'd be calling for his head to. I'll be interested in seeing how this plays out.

    Okay.....I have some additional questions regarding this statement and socialism, but first, waiting for my first lesson on what socialism is! I am one excited student! Ready to learn here.
    You're kidding, right? So many people have defined it for you that it's amazing you feel the need to be taught. Let's see.
    Start with the opinion of real socialists:

    Ask the card-carrying socialists: Is Obama one of them? - CNN.com


    And then, quoting Bujin:

    You can, but you'd continue to be using it incorrectly, just as the conservative spin machine intends you to do. They rely on folks uneducated on such topics to continue to spread their misinformation.

    Here's a more reasoned take on his "socialism": Norman J. Ornstein - Obama: A pragmatic moderate faces the 'socialist' smear

    Conservative columnist David Brooks makes a similar point: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/opinion/12brooks.html

    Even Ron Paul, Tea Party hero, disagrees: Ron Paul: Barack Obama is Not a Socialist - Washington Wire - WSJ

    And, as mentioned above, actual socialists clearly state his policies don't represent socialism. But of course they know the topic far less than Glenn Beck...so keep blindly repeating the party line. That'll show your independence!
    For the rest, do a little review of your own posts, OK?
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You're kidding, right? So many people have defined it for you that it's amazing you feel the need to be taught. For the rest, do a little review of your own posts, OK?
    No....no....no.....see, I knew it would go like this. I don't want to hear what others say about Obama. Remember, I'm a card carrying FOX News person, so I would never believe anything on CNN. I felt I had the 2 best teachers on the internet in you and TCrunner, so I'd like your viewpoints on socialism. Tell me, in your words, what is socialism? You see, I have looked on the internet and the definitions are abound....there are even a wide range of definitions.....so I want to get some of your wisdom. You say I am stupid and uneducated, so I would assume that means you are smart and educated enough to even be able to teach me! So no links....what do you think socialism is? Don't you have med students? I know you know how to teach, so please explain.
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  15.    #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    You say I am stupid and uneducated, so I would assume that means you are smart and educated enough to even be able to teach me! So no links....what do you think socialism is? Don't you have med students? I know you know how to teach, so please explain.
    Can you show me where I called you stupid and uneducated? I am very sure I never called you either. Quite simply, I don't think you are either one, or even close to either one. You're just partisan to the point of a closed mind.

    Socialism is the control of all industry by the collective. Public or common ownership of the entire private sector. Other than loans to GM, which are being repaid, give me one example where the Duly Elected President of the United States has said he was interested in taking over any entire private corporation? Even a public option for health care isn't even close to a socialist health care system. See, it has the word "option" in it. You "think" he is interesting in those things because of a few statements he has made, when in fact his actions are quite the opposite. Many of us were very disappointed he didn't push for a private option, but he didn't. There has not been one thing that he has done since becoming president that even hints of pushing this country toward socialism. The BP situation is a great example. He has insisted that BP put up money to pay back individuals without BP control of who gets it and who doesn't. Rush thinks that it's a "slush fund". In fact, it's a fund to pay the "small people" who are being screwed by BP. Even the republicans agree with the plan, having roasted their own member, Barton, who had the gall to apologize to BP for the way he was treated by the White House. Manure. If the administration did what Lamar Alexander suggested, and took over BP and ALL the other oil companies, that would be socialism. Do you really think he's interested in that? There is nothing socialist about the White House "agenda". Even Ron Paul says he's not a socialist. Socialists say he's not a socialist. But you do. You're not stupid, or uneducated and we both know it. But you are so partisan that you refuse to give up your stereotyping of a progressive agenda as socialist...and it isn't.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post

    And then, quoting Bujin:



    For the rest, do a little review of your own posts, OK?
    Well that's weird....I clicked on the link to David Brooks article in the NY Times, and at the top of the page popped up in big letters "OPINION". Now I'm confused....my opinion that Obama is a socialist is wrong because, these other people's opinions say I am. Weird....okay....I'm going to have to think through all this. I think I'm getting it though....okay....Republican opinions regarding Obama are not valid...nope...wait...that is wrong because David Brooks is a "conservative"....okay....how about this....Republican opinions that agree with you are fine, but opinions that oppose what you believe make that person "infantile". You see....just getting more confused here....I think I just need you to define socialism in your words. Let's start there and then we'll go from there! I just want to say again that I am very excited about learning from you 2.
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  17.    #137  
    I did. Read it.
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Can you show me where I called you stupid and uneducated? I am very sure I never called you either. Quite simply, I don't think you are either one, or even close to either one. You're just partisan to the point of a closed mind.
    Soooo....when you said I had thought patterns similar to a dead person, that would be a compliment to my intelligence? Well my bad....then let me apologize as I had no idea that was actually a compliment. Well thank you davidra! Again....remember....I did go to Clemson and well, heck, I have been kicked in the head by cattle over the years while out in the field in my overalls.

    As for the partisan comment....ummm....have you looked in the mirror? I know, I know....you said Bush did a good thing trying to help the AIDS people in Africa...I don't think saying just one good thing means you are bi-partisan. Heck, I have said obama is a good father, doesn't that count for something? Oh...and he also didn't close Gitmo like he promised. Good move Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Socialism is the control of all industry by the collective. Public or common ownership of the entire private sector. Other than loans to GM, which are being repaid, give me one example where the Duly Elected President of the United States has said he was interested in taking over any entire private corporation? Even a public option for health care isn't even close to a socialist health care system. See, it has the word "option" in it. You "think" he is interesting in those things because of a few statements he has made, when in fact his actions are quite the opposite. Many of us were very disappointed he didn't push for a private option, but he didn't. There has not been one thing that he has done since becoming president that even hints of pushing this country toward socialism. The BP situation is a great example. He has insisted that BP put up money to pay back individuals without BP control of who gets it and who doesn't. Rush thinks that it's a "slush fund". In fact, it's a fund to pay the "small people" who are being screwed by BP. Even the republicans agree with the plan, having roasted their own member, Barton, who had the gall to apologize to BP for the way he was treated by the White House. Manure. If the administration did what Lamar Alexander suggested, and took over BP and ALL the other oil companies, that would be socialism. Do you really think he's interested in that? There is nothing socialist about the White House "agenda". Even Ron Paul says he's not a socialist. Socialists say he's not a socialist. But you do. You're not stupid, or uneducated and we both know it. But you are so partisan that you refuse to give up your stereotyping of a progressive agenda as socialist...and it isn't.
    Okay....now....thanks for the definition and it appears to be exactly what I thought socialism meant. So, that means we are stuck on the opinion as to whether he has socialistic views. Well....health care. Did you listen to the comments he made at the AFL-CIO meeting? Answer truthfully. Do you feel that was him? Was it doctored? Did he say "everybody in, nobody out, that is what I'd like to see"? Does that mean "option" to you? But, you say, you do have an option in the plan passed....well again....did you listen to his comments? At the end he said the single payer system can't be passed at once, it has to be done a little at a time. What does that mean to you? Also, this quote by him saying "If you like your health plan, you can keep your health plan." That simply is not true if you read the bill and the whole grandfathering rules. Very tricky. What is also interesting, is that apparently the only group that can't truly lose their current plan are folks in unions. Very interesting. But I digress.....my point.....the plan that is in place has been set up so that insurance companies will likely be unable to survive. Tell me davidra....go back a few years....you are a now a young healthy 25 year old guy and you have a choice (yes, a choice!)....pay a fine that starts at $325 for not having health insurance, or, buy a health plan that (pure speculation here on cost, basing it somewhat on today's costs, but I'll even lower it by 25%, but a plan with a reasonable ded, physician co-pays, and Rx card) costs $140 per month, or $1680 per year. Hmmmm....what to do.....pay $1680 per year, or a fine of $325 (up to a max of $695 starting in 2015) and only worry about health insurance if you get sick. Because, as you know, starting 1/2014, they can't turn that person down for a health condition. Why not wait until a health problem arises and then get on the plan? So....the healthy people that are supposed to be motivated to get health coverage to avoid the "penalty", don't go on, yet all the unhealthy people go running to get covered. How long do you think that works? So....in my opinion....the ultimate goal is to get the government running the health coverage and you will get what you want. Now....here is that nasty "opinion" part again....you don't believe that will be a step towards the government running additional businesses, but I do. Oh...and guess what....Long Term Care coverage will be the next crisis and he'll have another program to fix that....backed by who?....yup....the good ole government. There is actually a small LTC plan in the bill for folks with health problems, but no need to discuss that now.....just getting their toes wet on that.

    But again....to socialism....when you also advocate the wealthy paying for all these goodies (which Obama has promised is the only group that will)....you are taking from them....you are redirecting wealth. You are spreading it around.
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  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I did. Read it.
    Yup....sorry.....was writing my post before I saw yours.
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  20.    #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    But again....to socialism....when you also advocate the wealthy paying for all these goodies (which Obama has promised is the only group that will)....you are taking from them....you are redirecting wealth. You are spreading it around.
    I'm going to ignore your comments about what the Duly Elected President of the United States "might think" or "might want" because it is irrelevant. Do you want world peace? Really? Who doesn't? Do you NOT want everybody to have health insurance? Let's not trot out that tired manure again, OK? Every country has universal coverage and only a few have government controlled health care. All the others, the vast majority, involve the private sector in health care. Do you really think Germany is a socialist government? If so, their government makes really good cars.

    But I will address your last comment. The "wealthy paying for all the goodies" has NOTHING to do with any definition of socialism. Socialism has to do with who controls industry. If there is no private sector, there is socialism. When the wealthy work for the government, that is socialism. I haven't seen anybody suggesting that from the White House, have you? You can rail against higher taxes (which is a joke considering the past history of tax rates in this country, and in comparison to most other countries) and call it whatever you want, but it's not socialism. It's what has been going on in this country since it was formed; using taxes to provide services. Taking from some and giving to others. Taking your tax money from Charleston and using it to build roads in Spartanburg that you may never drive on. Taking your tax money and using it to pay for health care for poor people in Anderson. The only thing you have to quibble about is the degree, not the design. Every government, state and federal, provide social services using taxes, even poor countries. If you want to argue against what currently exists in every state in the union, and what your state does every day, go right ahead. That is your right. But don't confuse this philosophy with socialism, because it's not the same thing.
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