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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Of course you don't. The right has the market on hypocrisy cornered, no matter what the topic. What we have is a business that bought and paid for regulators under previous administrations that has demonstrated their incompetence and greed at the expense of massive numbers of jobs and the environment. And what is happening? The republicans are being bought out by big oil right now to avoid strict limitations on their "business", and that includes governors. Your private enterprise is spending millions on PRPRPR $and$ $distributing$ $billions$ $to$ $shareholders$ $while$ $shutting$ $down$ $the$ $people$ $who$'$s$ $lives$ $they$ $destroyed$. $And$ $Obama$? $He$ $is$ $shining$ $a$ $light$ $on$ $their$ $practices$. $The$ $future$? $The$ $right$ $will$ $do$ $everything$ $they$ $can$ $to$ $block$ $controls$ $that$ $will$ $help$ $decrease$ $the$ $future$ &$quot$;$havoc$&$quot$;. $Wanna$ $bet$?
    jeez, what a whitewash. what we have here is an administration that has totally failed in responding to this spill. And no, I'm not talking about capping it. I'm talking about assisting the gulf states in protecting themselves, and much as possible. Obama was asleep at the wheel for at least the first 45 days. He is just *NOW* 'rolling up his sleeves' and pitching in. What a loser. He's a great campaigner and a big talker, but as a leader he's a total failure.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I've seen quite a few recent posts referring to 'libertarian' ideals that really only apply to anarcho-capitalists.
    I heard the same thing just the other day on a major radio broadcast. The liberal host said "...and these Tea Partiers who want to get rid of government..." He was rightly rebuked by his co-host but I don't think it changed anyone's mind.

    No, because making the distinction leads to actually having to consider what someone thinks rather than what you can suggest they think. Personally, I'm not really a Rand Paul supporter, but I don't think he's getting a fair shake either.
    Can I ask why you wouldn't support Paul, aside from the fact that you can't vote for him?
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Can I ask why you wouldn't support Paul, aside from the fact that you can't vote for him?
    Mainly because if he can't handle people like Rachel Maddow without getting tripped up and made to look bad, he's not likely to be able to swim with the sharks in DC very well either. That being said, I would need to learn a lot more about him before being able to support him if he was running for something I was able to vote for.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    jeez, what a whitewash. what we have here is an administration that has totally failed in responding to this spill. And no, I'm not talking about capping it. I'm talking about assisting the gulf states in protecting themselves, and much as possible. Obama was asleep at the wheel for at least the first 45 days. He is just *NOW* 'rolling up his sleeves' and pitching in. What a loser. He's a great campaigner and a big talker, but as a leader he's a total failure.
    So tell me, how does one determine at what point a state is incapable of dealing with a problem themselves, and at what point the government will be criticized for being too invasive? Isn't it BP's job and the state's responsibility first, if they are able to solve the problem. For someone that argues for less government involvement in everything, don't you find your position a bit paradoxical? What do you mean by "assisting ... in protecting themselves"? Are you referring to the sand berms, which are just blatant political grandstanding by Jindal? Did you consider the fact that maybe they just weren't a good idea? Did you really think people were stopping them from building them if they thought that would help? Why would they do that? Can you come up with a motive? Or is it possible that they could make things worse?

    Perhaps, but the berm issue has created its own toxic friction between Louisiana and the Obama Administration, which only late last week approved six berm sites. It will only commit to paying for one, however, as a sort of test to determine if more are worth erecting. That $16 million berm will go up just west of the Mississippi River off Scofield Island, and will be funded by either BP or the Federal Government's Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund. The Administration's point man on the BP spill, Coast Guard Admiral Thad Allen, maintains that while "we're not averse to attempting this as a prototype," there are "a lot of doubts about whether this is a valid oil-spill-response technique." And there is no guarantee, he adds, that the Federal Government will help pay for five other approved berms, three more west of the Mississippi and two east of the river.
    That federal reluctance has angered Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal and Plaquemines parish president Billy Nungesser, both Republicans, who are the two biggest sand-berm proponents. "We could have built 10 miles of sand boom already if [the feds] would have approved our permit when we originally requested it" shortly after the spill began April 20, Jindal said last week. Said Nungesser, "The federal government has got to move on this and BP has got to pay for it. Without closing as many gaps as possible, we're going to get oil in the marshes." Critics have accused Jindal and Nungesser of political grandstanding. As urgent as closing gaps like Pass Chandal may appear, the plan has more doubters than just Allen. Environmentalists and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers — as well as BP — fear even temporary berms could mess with natural tidal flows as well as the integrity of naturally existing barrier islands. There are also questions about how well they hold up in storms, and about the effects of the massive dredging of ocean-floor sand required to construct them.



    Gulf Oil Spill: Can Sand Berms Save the Louisiana Coast? - TIME
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    So tell me, how does one determine at what point a state is incapable of dealing with a problem themselves, and at what point the government will be criticized for being too invasive?
    How is any of that at issue here? The incident occurred in a federally granted lease. The revenue from that lease goes almost exclusively to the feds. Who exactly is going to criticize them for being invasive? Again, when all that revenue goes to the state that does the work and takes the risk, you won't hear a peep from us.
    Isn't it BP's job and the state's responsibility first, if they are able to solve the problem.
    Well, except that many of the solutions proposed by either of those have to be approved by some federal agency before anything can legally be done.
    For someone that argues for less government involvement in everything, don't you find your position a bit paradoxical? What do you mean by "assisting ... in protecting themselves"? Are you referring to the sand berms, which are just blatant political grandstanding by Jindal?
    I'll take Jindal's political grandstanding over Obama's any day, and I didn't vote for him. The berms are certainly not an ideal solution, but they undoubtedly would have been more likely to help than doing nothing.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    So tell me, how does one determine at what point a state is incapable of dealing with a problem themselves, and at what point the government will be criticized for being too invasive? Isn't it BP's job and the state's responsibility first, if they are able to solve the problem.
    The state and BP doesn't control the coast guard, or FEMA, or the Army Corp of Engineers.

    Again, you're focused soley on BP, and their possible mismanagement. I'm all for an investigation into any misdeeds that led up to and during this crisis, even a criminal investigation - for both BP and the Fed.

    But apparently that's all this administration can focus on, as well. They got their lawyers down there quickly (after only 5 short weeks). As for actually responding to the pleadings for help that they've received from Louisiana Alabama Mississippi and Florida (which is their actually job, not BPs), this administration has not surprising failed miserably.

    Obama is a joke. And a bad one at that.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. groovy's Avatar
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    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Mainly because if he can't handle people like Rachel Maddow without getting tripped up and made to look bad, he's not likely to be able to swim with the sharks in DC very well either. That being said, I would need to learn a lot more about him before being able to support him if he was running for something I was able to vote for.
    Understood. He isn't the first fledgling politician to get tripped up by a journalist with an agenda but I know of at least one politician who mumbled and fumbled his way right into 1600 Penn. Anyway, I hope he learned his lesson while he's still young.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    The state and BP doesn't control the coast guard, or FEMA, or the Army Corp of Engineers.

    Again, you're focused soley on BP, and their possible mismanagement. I'm all for an investigation into any misdeeds that led up to and during this crisis, even a criminal investigation - for both BP and the Fed.

    But apparently that's all this administration can focus on, as well. They got their lawyers down there quickly (after only 5 short weeks). As for actually responding to the pleadings for help that they've received from Louisiana Alabama Mississippi and Florida (which is their actually job, not BPs), this administration has not surprising failed miserably.

    Obama is a joke. And a bad one at that.
    I don't think so. You only see what you want to see.

    By the Numbers to Date:
    • The administration has authorized 17,500 National Guard troops from Gulf Coast states to participate in the response to the BP oil spill.
    • More than 20,000 personnel are currently responding to protect the shoreline and wildlife and cleanup vital coastlines.
    • More than 1,900 vessels are responding on site, including skimmers, tugs, barges, and recovery vessels to assist in containment and cleanup efforts—in addition to dozens of aircraft, remotely operated vehicles, and multiple mobile offshore drilling units.
    • Approximately 2 million feet of containment boom and 2.3 million feet of sorbent boom have been deployed to contain the spill—and approximately 745,000 feet of containment boom and 2.1 million feet of sorbent boom are available.
    • Approximately 15 million gallons of an oil-water mix have been recovered.
    • Approximately 1.02 million gallons of total dispersant have been deployed—765,000 on the surface and 255,000 subsea. More than 450,000 gallons are available.
    • 125 controlled burns have been conducted, efficiently removing a total of more than 3.2 million gallons of oil from the open water in an effort to protect shoreline and wildlife.
    • 17 staging areas are in place and ready to protect sensitive shorelines, including: Dauphin Island, Ala., Orange Beach, Ala., Theodore, Ala., Panama City, Fla., Pensacola, Fla., Port St. Joe, Fla., St. Marks, Fla., Amelia, La., Cocodrie, La., Grand Isle, La., Shell Beach, La., Slidell, La., St. Mary, La.; Venice, La., Biloxi, Miss., Pascagoula, Miss., and Pass Christian, Miss.
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