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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Please don't try to complicate the simplistic and jingoistic thought processes of the right with the truth. They have never been interested. Using the quick lie on a protest sign or on a message board requires less thought and gives them the feeling of intellectual superiority that they lack in real life.
    Yes....ROFL....you liberals are always straight with the facts, never lying, always honest. That is why Obama is slowly losing all but his hardcore base....people are realizing you just can't believe what comes from his mouth....as he will say whatever it takes to get his socialist agenda through. The next great set of lies will apparently begin as he tries to sell everyone on Tax and Trade....let the bold face lying from the left begin!!!!
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  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Please don't try to complicate the simplistic and jingoistic thought processes of the right with the truth. They have never been interested. Using the quick lie on a protest sign or on a message board requires less thought and gives them the feeling of intellectual superiority that they lack in real life.
    You seem like an intelligent, articulate, and well-read individual. Can you imagine how frustrated you get when some blowhard right-wing simpleton paints ALL liberals such as yourself with the same denigrating, disrespectful brush? Using absolutist terms such as never and always and every can be tiresome for the people you are speaking about. I'm certain that at some point in your life you've met a republican that was equally thoughtful, respectful, truthful, intellectually able, etc., yet simply disagreed with you on some views. They were not republitards or neocons or *********s or religious zealots; just normal people with their own thoughts and opinions. Granted the right includes a lot of nutjobs, but so does the left. I think you and the rest of us should assume that some conservatives and some liberals have both the right to think differently and the ability to do so in an intelligent, thoughtful, and respectful manner. When you find a nutjob, and there are plenty to find, try not to lump all other humans of the same political affiliation into the discussion while you are taking him (or her) down a peg. It makes it easier and more tolerable for the rest of us to read your opinions, which are never short on information and entertainment.
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    And yes, I try to follow this advice myself, but it doesn't always work out that way
  3. Micael's Avatar
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       #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    You can, but you'd continue to be using it incorrectly, just as the conservative spin machine intends you to do. They rely on folks uneducated on such topics to continue to spread their misinformation.

    Here's a more reasoned take on his "socialism": Norman J. Ornstein - Obama: A pragmatic moderate faces the 'socialist' smear

    Conservative columnist David Brooks makes a similar point: Op-Ed Columnist - What Obama Stands For - NYTimes.com

    Even Ron Paul, Tea Party hero, disagrees: Ron Paul: Barack Obama is Not a Socialist - Washington Wire - WSJ

    And, as mentioned above, actual socialists clearly state his policies don't represent socialism. But of course they know the topic far less than Glenn Beck...so keep blindly repeating the party line. That'll show your independence!
    I find it humorous that you 'stoop' to using Ron Paul to support your arguments when it pleases you.

    Progressivism is about small incremental steps towards socialism. Obama is a progressive. It's called observation and logic, Bujin. I don't need links to talking heads denying or confirming this.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Progressivism is about small incremental steps towards socialism. Obama is a progressive. It's called observation and logic, Bujin. I don't need links to talking heads denying or confirming this.
    I suppose that's true, if you define socialism as "whatever suits my purpose" rather than the actual definition. By that logic, conservatism is about small incremental steps toward fascism.
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  5. Micael's Avatar
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       #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Please don't try to complicate the simplistic and jingoistic thought processes of the right with the truth. They have never been interested. Using the quick lie on a protest sign or on a message board requires less thought and gives them the feeling of intellectual superiority that they lack in real life.
    .... and we know the left never points to the quick lie on a protest sign or on a message board.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. Micael's Avatar
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       #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I suppose that's true, if you define socialism as "whatever suits my purpose" rather than the actual definition. By that logic, conservatism is about small incremental steps toward fascism.
    Men far more intelligent than me defined it long ago, Bujin. Churchill said it best "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

    Progressivism is the philosophy that it's inherently good to incrementally force others to finance and take part in socialism (example: Obama's healthcare bill). It's a lot easier to work towards that goal incrementally, little by little. In the past, attempts to force everyone to socialism quickly has proven to be rather bloody and messy.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post

    Progressivism is the philosophy that it's inherently good to incrementally force others to finance and take part in socialism (example: Obama's healthcare bill). It's a lot easier to work towards that goal incrementally, little by little. In the past, attempts to force everyone to socialism quickly has proven to be rather bloody and messy.
    Repeatedly stating that his policies lead toward socialism don't make it fact, though. It's simply a tagline that the conservative spin machine is expecting their blind followers to spout, without regard to the fact that it's incorrect.

    It's just another version of "health care will kill granny": creation of bogeymen to scare their minions and raise money. Congrats for filling your assigned role so predictably - I'm sure that **** Armey will be proud of you.
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  8. Micael's Avatar
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       #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Repeatedly stating that his policies lead toward socialism don't make it fact, though. It's simply a tagline that the conservative spin machine is expecting their blind followers to spout, without regard to the fact that it's incorrect.

    It's just another version of "health care will kill granny": creation of bogeymen to scare their minions and raise money. Congrats for filling your assigned role so predictably - I'm sure that **** Armey will be proud of you.
    Thanks for the insults. If you did your homework, you'd find that I'm right. Don't worry. I won't hold my breath.....
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Men far more intelligent than me defined it long ago, Bujin. Churchill said it best "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

    Progressivism is the philosophy that it's inherently good to incrementally force others to finance and take part in socialism (example: Obama's healthcare bill). It's a lot easier to work towards that goal incrementally, little by little. In the past, attempts to force everyone to socialism quickly has proven to be rather bloody and messy.
    I think this is pretty self-evident. If you want to be technical, progressivism is the push for egalitarianism via social change. In the US, at least, Progressives and Socialists both claim to be egalitarian and believe Capitalism to be an impediment to the goal of a completely egalitarian society. But if anyone thinks Obama is not a child of the New Left, one can not deny he rode the waves of that movement right into the White House.
    Last edited by groovy; 06/03/2010 at 12:43 PM.
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    You seem like an intelligent, articulate, and well-read individual. Can you imagine how frustrated you get when some blowhard right-wing simpleton paints ALL liberals such as yourself with the same denigrating, disrespectful brush? Using absolutist terms such as never and always and every can be tiresome for the people you are speaking about. I'm certain that at some point in your life you've met a republican that was equally thoughtful, respectful, truthful, intellectually able, etc., yet simply disagreed with you on some views. They were not republitards or neocons or *********s or religious zealots; just normal people with their own thoughts and opinions. Granted the right includes a lot of nutjobs, but so does the left. I think you and the rest of us should assume that some conservatives and some liberals have both the right to think differently and the ability to do so in an intelligent, thoughtful, and respectful manner. When you find a nutjob, and there are plenty to find, try not to lump all other humans of the same political affiliation into the discussion while you are taking him (or her) down a peg. It makes it easier and more tolerable for the rest of us to read your opinions, which are never short on information and entertainment.
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    And yes, I try to follow this advice myself, but it doesn't always work out that way
    Actually, when I am discussing issues regarding creationism and the Christian right, and people yelling "socialism" and "you're trying to kill my granny", I lose all patience with the right. While there are some here who actually attempt to discuss things with an open mind and show a modicum of intelligence, several insist on haranguing over and over about how awful Obama is, what a liar he is, and how he's a socialist. That is hardly reasonable discourse. While I freely admit to behaving the same way, it is almost always in response to some absurd misrepresentation of the truth. I am perfectly willing to accept moderate principles within reason. I also am perfectly willing to describe myself as biased, and have never claimed not to be. I do find it absolutely amazing that the right wing can support and not be horrified by the fringe base, the Limbaugh and Beck followers who I consider to be racist and borderline illiterate. As an intelligent person yourself, aren't you horrified the way no republican politician will dare disagree with anything Limbaugh says? And don't give me any bunk about him being only an entertainer; if he was, there wouldn't be traditional republicans falling all over themselves to keep from irritating him. Really....aren't you embarrassed by the absurdity of your fringe?

    Are all republicans like that? Of course not....but several on this forum are. I have family members and very good friends that are republicans and we get along just fine. But they don't misuse "socialism", they don't accuse democrats of sponsoring death panels, they don't compare Obama to H*tler...in other words, they are rational intelligent people. I wish the republican congress was as reasonable as they are. And I expect you fit in that category as well.
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    While I freely admit to behaving the same way, it is almost always in response to some absurd misrepresentation of the truth. I am perfectly willing to accept moderate principles within reason. I also am perfectly willing to describe myself as biased, and have never claimed not to be.
    Me too and more often then I'd like to admit.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I do find it absolutely amazing that the right wing can support and not be horrified by the fringe base, the Limbaugh and Beck followers who I consider to be racist and borderline illiterate. As an intelligent person yourself, aren't you horrified the way no republican politician will dare disagree with anything Limbaugh says?
    Uh, yes. I find the extreme left and extreme right mostly comical but sometimes ideologically dangerous. Although I am conservative on most issues, I don't consider myself a republican, although I voted republican in 2000 and 2004, simply because the candidates I supported didn't stand a chance in heck.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Really....aren't you embarrassed by the absurdity of your fringe?
    I'm usually embarrassed for either fringe, if they're proposing or supporting an agenda that I find absurd. And there are plenty of republicans that curl up at the feet of Rush and the other guy, but then there are plenty who do not... Who are you guys embarrassed by, Sharpton, Gore, Michael Moore?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Are all republicans like that? Of course not....but several on this forum are. I have family members and very good friends that are republicans and we get along just fine. But they don't misuse "socialism", they don't accuse democrats of sponsoring death panels, they don't compare Obama to H*tler...in other words, they are rational intelligent people. I wish the republican congress was as reasonable as they are. And I expect you fit in that category as well.
    I find it interesting that in the last few years both Bush and Obama have been compared to Hi*ler on different issues. What's the deal? Which one is Hi*ler, cause they can't both be Hi*ler, right? And yes, I have some extreme libs and reps among my family and close friends, it keeps things lively. How boring would it be if everyone agreed on everything? What would I do for people watching, which is my favorite passtime.
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Yes....ROFL....you liberals are always straight with the facts, never lying, always honest. That is why Obama is slowly losing all but his hardcore base....people are realizing you just can't believe what comes from his mouth....as he will say whatever it takes to get his socialist agenda through. The next great set of lies will apparently begin as he tries to sell everyone on Tax and Trade....let the bold face lying from the left begin!!!!
    ummmm i guess thats the same way Bush lost his support as well.. lol only from the right lolol
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  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Men far more intelligent than me defined it long ago, Bujin. Churchill said it best "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

    Progressivism is the philosophy that it's inherently good to incrementally force others to finance and take part in socialism (example: Obama's healthcare bill). It's a lot easier to work towards that goal incrementally, little by little. In the past, attempts to force everyone to socialism quickly has proven to be rather bloody and messy.
    hmmm would that not apply to your revolution some 230 years ago.. bloody and messy to get to freedom and capitalism...lol... one persons blessing is anothers misery,
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post

    I'm usually embarrassed for either fringe, if they're proposing or supporting an agenda that I find absurd. And there are plenty of republicans that curl up at the feet of Rush and the other guy, but then there are plenty who do not... Who are you guys embarrassed by, Sharpton, Gore, Michael Moore?
    Sorry....but I don't see comparing Al Gore to Glenn Beck. Or Michael Moore, for that matter. Would you expect to see Rachel Maddow or even Keith Olbermann striking fear in the hearts of moderate democrats? Limbaugh and Beck have millions and millions of marginally functional people who actually believe that what they say is the truth. To me, that is one of the most frightening things about the right wing. They actually, really, believe that divisive hogwash...millions and millions of them. It hardly demonstrates the kind of perspective that can move this country anywhere but backwards.
  15. #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Sorry....but I don't see comparing Al Gore to Glenn Beck. Or Michael Moore, for that matter. Would you expect to see Rachel Maddow or even Keith Olbermann striking fear in the hearts of moderate democrats? Limbaugh and Beck have millions and millions of marginally functional people who actually believe that what they say is the truth. To me, that is one of the most frightening things about the right wing. They actually, really, believe that divisive hogwash...millions and millions of them. It hardly demonstrates the kind of perspective that can move this country anywhere but backwards.
    Yea, my examples were poor. But I don't honestly know who liberals turn to when they want direction or leadership. I'm certain there are wackos on either side, I just don't know who your wackos are. Our wackos are front and center with huge radio and tv deals which make them difficult to tune out.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    ummmm i guess thats the same way Bush lost his support as well.. lol only from the right lolol
    No doubt....when Bush started acting more like a democrat than a Republican, he certainly lost his core Republican support, not a big surprise. Does that surprise you? Of course, that was after being re-elected. Fortunately for him he wasn't running for office when his support got super weak. But it does appear that the only support of Obama at this point is with the core democrats like davidra and that bunch. I mean seriously, there is nothing Obama could do that would cause them to utter a negative word about him.

    As I watch how this White House is run, it is so clear that he (obama) really has no idea how to lead. I mean, look at the visit with AZ Gov Brewer today. The ONLY reason he had the visit was because he was basically forced or shamed into it. And let's face it, it was strictly for show, just like when he had that health care meeting with the Republicans, just a show. Any "reaching across the aisle" that he does is for show, and most people know that. He kept saying he was too busy, and then he'd have a visit with Paul McCartney, or some basketball team that he had to visit with, or an important interview with Marv Albert (I mean, he had to make a pitch to LeBron to come to Chicago, right?....important stuff). A real leader....someone with experience in running anything....would have known better....and told McCartney, "sorry Paul, I have to run a country and we have some serious stuff going on, and this darn Gov wants to meet with me, can we meet another time?". It's almost as if he's a little child that wants his way, and if you don't play his game, well, he won't be playing with you. I think the country is getting tired of this attitude.
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       #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    hmmm would that not apply to your revolution some 230 years ago.. bloody and messy to get to freedom and capitalism...lol... one persons blessing is anothers misery,
    More like the russian revolution in the early 20th century. Last I checked, the American revolution wasn't about setting up a socialist republic. Perhaps you think it should have been?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    . But it does appear that the only support of Obama at this point is with the core democrats like davidra and that bunch. I mean seriously, there is nothing Obama could do that would cause them to utter a negative word about him.

    As I watch how this White House is run, it is so clear that he (obama) really has no idea how to lead. I mean, look at the visit with AZ Gov Brewer today. The ONLY reason he had the visit was because he was basically forced or shamed into it. And let's face it, it was strictly for show, just like when he had that health care meeting with the Republicans, just a show. Any "reaching across the aisle" that he does is for show, and most people know that. He kept saying he was too busy, and then he'd have a visit with Paul McCartney, or some basketball team that he had to visit with, or an important interview with Marv Albert (I mean, he had to make a pitch to LeBron to come to Chicago, right?....important stuff). A real leader....someone with experience in running anything....would have known better....and told McCartney, "sorry Paul, I have to run a country and we have some serious stuff going on, and this darn Gov wants to meet with me, can we meet another time?". It's almost as if he's a little child that wants his way, and if you don't play his game, well, he won't be playing with you. I think the country is getting tired of this attitude.
    Do you even have a clue how lame your posts are? First, as of today, 49% of the country approves of Obama's performance by Gallup. Please, find any other politician in the country who even comes with fifteen points of that. So stop blathering on about how nobody supports him.

    And considering your lack of observational powers, should we really care if you think, based on you watching how the White House is run, that the president doesn't know how to lead? As if you do? Please. And you seem to also know the exact reason why Obama met with Brewer? What you just can't seem to grasp is that you have no special powers to be able to discern anything. See, there's this thing called "insight" that involves looking critically at your own pronouncements. You might want to try it. Please...we know it's your opinion, and that does clarify the relative value of your comments, and place them where they belong...where the sun don't shine.
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Do you even have a clue how lame your posts are? First, as of today, 49% of the country approves of Obama's performance by Gallup. Please, find any other politician in the country who even comes with fifteen points of that. So stop blathering on about how nobody supports him.

    And considering your lack of observational powers, should we really care if you think, based on you watching how the White House is run, that the president doesn't know how to lead? As if you do? Please. And you seem to also know the exact reason why Obama met with Brewer? What you just can't seem to grasp is that you have no special powers to be able to discern anything. See, there's this thing called "insight" that involves looking critically at your own pronouncements. You might want to try it. Please...we know it's your opinion, and that does clarify the relative value of your comments, and place them where they belong...where the sun don't shine.
    Do you even have a clue you are in need of a sedative? ROFL Good grief....I love how your opinions are so wonderful and insightful (not really, just extremely biased) but anyone that dares be critical of the great Oz then they are to be thrown away. Actually....the Great Oz is likely a good way to explain this Prez....he really is just a community organizer that is pretending to be something different....and just doesn't have it. The obama dog Bo is slowly pulling that curtain aside....and look....a community organizer is revealed.

    What also is rather lame, is that you seemed to over look this weekly GALLUP poll, ending May 30, 2010. Why don't you click this link dear doc and tell me what the trend line is....would you be buying this stock? Here is the link: Obama Weekly Approval Average Dips to New Low of 46%

    Also, please notice the line in this GALLUP poll at the above mentioned link that says "Obama Rating Lower Than Most Presidents' Comparables". Still liking these GALLUP polls davidra? I guess you'll need to move onto another polling company....but....kind of running out of new polls to use to support the Oz Prez, huh?

    EDIT: Also worth noting was that in that same set of polls, it points out that his approval among Independents has reached a new low. On a positive note.....he has a 93% approval....yes....I'm standing and applauding....a 93% approval from....wait....wait....wait.....blacks. Go figure, huh?
    Last edited by clemgrad85; 06/03/2010 at 10:05 PM.
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  20. #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    EDIT: Also worth noting was that in that same set of polls, it points out that his approval among Independents has reached a new low. On a positive note.....he has a 93% approval....yes....I'm standing and applauding....a 93% approval from....wait....wait....wait.....blacks. Go figure, huh?

    Ahhh. The spawn of Strom. Perfect. Enough said.
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