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  1. #441  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Maybe, but uneducated.

    Does that mean you've decided not to run for office?
    Sir, I'm not allowed to run my own house.

    In my academic experience (as a doctoral student and now a teacher of doctoral students) I have seen no significant correlation between academic achievement (grades and degrees) and intelligence. I regularly see a strong correlation between higher academic achievement and admirable qualities such as committment, work ethic, self-discipline, intellectual curiousity, etc. My smartest friend (in my amateur opinion) is a highschool dropout who joined the navy. He now runs a division of a computer company that engineers high speed server terminals and makes more money before spring break than I make in a year...and he couldn't make it through the 11th grade.
  2. #442  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Sir, I'm not allowed to run my own house.

    In my academic experience (as a doctoral student and now a teacher of doctoral students) I have seen no significant correlation between academic achievement (grades and degrees) and intelligence. I regularly see a strong correlation between higher academic achievement and admirable qualities such as committment, work ethic, self-discipline, intellectual curiousity, etc. My smartest friend (in my amateur opinion) is a highschool dropout who joined the navy. He now runs a division of a computer company that engineers high speed server terminals and makes more money before spring break than I make in a year...and he couldn't make it through the 11th grade.
    Interesting anecdote, but that's exactly what it is. How many high school dropouts who join the Navy would reach that level of competence? How many of your doctoral students do? I've taught highly motivated students for around thirty years now. Admittedly they are a select group but I have no doubt they are significantly more intelligent than high school dropouts. Not that some of our students haven't taken a long and interesting route to where they ended up, like your friend, but I bet you'd rather have someone with high academic achievement, regardless of intelligence, to remove your brain tumor, as opposed to a high school dropout. And I'd rather have someone who was elected by his peers to be the president of the Harvard Law Review running my country instead of a weathergirl who barely graduated from college. But that's just me, I guess.
  3. #443  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Interesting anecdote, but that's exactly what it is.
    Just an observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    How many high school dropouts who join the Navy would reach that level of competence? How many of your doctoral students do?
    You've missed the point. Doctoral students are expected to reach that level of competence, making their achievement rather normal among their peers. My friends achievement is rather astounding relative to his peers.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I've taught highly motivated students for around thirty years now. Admittedly they are a select group but I have no doubt they are significantly more intelligent than high school dropouts.
    Certainly you know that I don't consider my highschool dropout friend as representative of the norm, he is the definition of an outlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Not that some of our students haven't taken a long and interesting route to where they ended up, like your friend, but I bet you'd rather have someone with high academic achievement, regardless of intelligence, to remove your brain tumor, as opposed to a high school dropout.
    Yes I would. And I would also like someone with high academic achievement, regardless of intelligence, to repair my car (automotive repair school) versus a doctorate in thermodynamics or an MD.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And I'd rather have someone who was elected by his peers to be the president of the Harvard Law Review running my country instead of a weathergirl who barely graduated from college. But that's just me, I guess.
    Me too, but if you are referring to Palin, I think your characterization is a bit of a reduction, kinda like when you said GWB didn't utter one intelligent comment in 8 years (what was the word you used to describe him, hillbilly?). You tend to have a flair for the absolute. I think Palin is capable of a little more than repeating whats on a weather teleprompter, I think GWB probably uttered something intelligent in his 8 years, and I think President Obama is more intelligent than both; but that's my generalization so who knows?
    Last edited by joshaccount; 07/16/2010 at 10:15 PM.
  4. #444  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post

    You've missed the point. Doctoral students are expected to reach that level of competence, making their achievement rather normal among their peers. My friends achievement is rather astounding relative to his peers.
    Your comment was that you saw "no corellation between academic performance and intelligence". I am pretty sure that is untrue.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Certainly you know that I don't consider my highschool dropout friend as representative of the norm, he is the definition of an outlier.
    That's exactly what he is. How much do you think he affects the linear relationship between academic performance and intelligence? Most of us know people like this; but they are not the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Yes I would. And I would also like someone with high academic achievement, regardless of intelligence, to repair my car (automotive repair school) versus a doctorate in thermodynamics or an MD.
    Actually, the best auto mechanic in my town quit his job on the faculty and opened an auto repair shop. His Ph.D. has been on the shelf for fifteen years.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Me too, but if you are referring to Palin, I think your characterization is a bit of a reduction, kinda like when you said GWB didn't utter one intelligent comment in 8 years (what was the word you used to describe him, hillbilly?). You tend to have a flair for the absolute. I think Palin is capable of a little more than repeating whats on a weather teleprompter, I think GWB probably uttered something intelligent in his 8 years, and I think President Obama is more intelligent than both; but that's my generalization so who knows?
    A forum is based on reductionism. And I certainly don't mean to suggest that someone who is simply a great communicator is someone I want running my country either. You want to see someone with Palin's skills and lack of substance? Just watch any infomercial. Maybe it's just an accident that Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar and Bush had an Ivy League education, and Obama was president of the Harvard Law Review, but I'm thinking not. If you really think that being the mayor of Wasilla, AK is good preparation for making decisions about Yemen or nuclear proliferation, fine, feel free to vote for her. I don't.

    But yes, I have to agree that Palin is capable of something more than reading a weather teleprompter. She can read her hand as well. She's just not capable of being a leader, other than in a small town.

    And the determination of exactly what is an intelligent comment, whether by Bush or Obama, is admittedly open to individual interpretation and based in part on the facility of their speechwriters. If you see Bush as a repository of meaningful commments, good for you. I don't.
  5. #445  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Your comment was that you saw "no corellation between academic performance and intelligence". I am pretty sure that is untrue.
    To clarify: Both as a PhD student and now a teacher, I was (am still) stunned at some of the students who are admitted to and do well in a doctorate-level program. Others are, by my observation only, highly intelligent. But if I had to throw out a number from thin air, I'd say in my experience the split is 50/50. Again, not speaking in absolutes here, those that do not appear to be highly intelligent are not automatically unintelligent, but their writing, ability to synthesize new information, extrapolate meaning from data, etc. sometimes stuns me.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Actually, the best auto mechanic in my town quit his job on the faculty and opened an auto repair shop. His Ph.D. has been on the shelf for fifteen years.
    This type of divergence is always interesting. A good friend of mine was tired of being named in frivolous lawsuits, so left his medical practice and went to law school (sadly he now represents insurance companies).

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    A forum is based on reductionism. And I certainly don't mean to suggest that someone who is simply a great communicator is someone I want running my country either. You want to see someone with Palin's skills and lack of substance? Just watch any infomercial. Maybe it's just an accident that Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar and Bush had an Ivy League education, and Obama was president of the Harvard Law Review, but I'm thinking not. If you really think that being the mayor of Wasilla, AK is good preparation for making decisions about Yemen or nuclear proliferation, fine, feel free to vote for her. I don't.
    I certainly would not vote for her, and I think the trend of presidents who graduate from prestigious schools has more to do with there marketability than their preparation to lead a nation. I think a Rhodes scholar is more electable than a graduate from New Mexico State University.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    But yes, I have to agree that Palin is capable of something more than reading a weather teleprompter. She can read her hand as well. She's just not capable of being a leader, other than in a small town.
    In general I think governing a state is the best preparation for national leadership, although Palin could be the exception here. I think she should be admired for her accomplishments, you can have a successful career that doesn't include the whitehouse. And I realize these boards are based on reducing a persons entire life into 2 sarcastic lines from nobodies like us, but I'm sure it gets under you skin when KAM refers to President Obama as "a thug politician from Chicago" and "an empty suit".
  6. #446  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    To clarify: Both as a PhD student and now a teacher, I was (am still) stunned at some of the students who are admitted to and do well in a doctorate-level program. Others are, by my observation only, highly intelligent. But if I had to throw out a number from thin air, I'd say in my experience the split is 50/50. Again, not speaking in absolutes here, those that do not appear to be highly intelligent are not automatically unintelligent, but their writing, ability to synthesize new information, extrapolate meaning from data, etc. sometimes stuns me.



    This type of divergence is always interesting. A good friend of mine was tired of being named in frivolous lawsuits, so left his medical practice and went to law school (sadly he now represents insurance companies).



    I certainly would not vote for her, and I think the trend of presidents who graduate from prestigious schools has more to do with there marketability than their preparation to lead a nation. I think a Rhodes scholar is more electable than a graduate from New Mexico State University.



    In general I think governing a state is the best preparation for national leadership, although Palin could be the exception here. I think she should be admired for her accomplishments, you can have a successful career that doesn't include the whitehouse. And I realize these boards are based on reducing a persons entire life into 2 sarcastic lines from nobodies like us, but I'm sure it gets under you skin when KAM refers to President Obama as "a thug politician from Chicago" and "an empty suit".
    Many years ago a friend of mine practiced in Appalachia with me as a pediatrician. Several years after I left he decided to spend the rest of his life being a farmer and promoting solar greenhouses. He's still doing it in NC 25 years later.

    You are missing the point. You are dealing with Ph.D. candidates. What do you think the chance is that Sarah Palin would have been applying to your program? It's called selection bias. I have no admiration for Palin. She destroyed the environment in Alaska, she is a person who's politics are based on her religion, and she is, as best I can tell, not very smart. "Having a successful career" depends on your definition. She could have a very successful career as a backcountry guide, but I still don't want her having anything to do with serious decision-making.

    And as far as what Kam says about Obama, you're wrong. It doesn't get under my skin. I consider the source.
  7. #447  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Many years ago a friend of mine practiced in Appalachia with me as a pediatrician. Several years after I left he decided to spend the rest of his life being a farmer and promoting solar greenhouses. He's still doing it in NC 25 years later.
    I think thats great. If the initial outlay wasn't ridiculous, I'd cover my roof with solar panels.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I have no admiration for Palin. She destroyed the environment in Alaska, she is a person who's politics are based on her religion, and she is, as best I can tell, not very smart. "Having a successful career" depends on your definition. She could have a very successful career as a backcountry guide, but I still don't want her having anything to do with serious decision-making.
    To be more clear, I don't admire Palin either (mostly because I don't know much about her), but I have respect for what she has accomplished. Governing a state puts you into a pretty exclusive group, kinda like the Harvard law review. I don't admire our president, I disagree with most of his decisions and future plans, but I have a lot of respect for him and what he has managed to accomplish -- which isn't difficult for me. Outside of criminal politicians, and there are plenty, I don't understand why it's so difficult for people, yourself included, to show respect for public officials, even if you don't like them.
  8. #448  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    To be more clear, I don't admire Palin either (mostly because I don't know much about her), but I have respect for what she has accomplished. Governing a state puts you into a pretty exclusive group, kinda like the Harvard law review. I don't admire our president, I disagree with most of his decisions and future plans, but I have a lot of respect for him and what he has managed to accomplish -- which isn't difficult for me. Outside of criminal politicians, and there are plenty, I don't understand why it's so difficult for people, yourself included, to show respect for public officials, even if you don't like them.
    Respect is to be earned, not awarded, even if by election. There are many of my peers I respect, and a few I really don't, yet some people think all people in my profession deserve respect, or all parents deserve the respect of their children. Neither should be the case. I'm sure you understand this; you don't "respect" your doctoral students for getting there, they have to earn your respect through their performance.

    I respect Bush for being consistent in his positions. I had no respect for his positions. As best I can tell, Palin has no positions, other than "government is too big" and "I love mama grizzlies". She's been blatantly inconsistent about things like racism and even oil drilling. If she ever produces some specific declarations, and remains consistent to them, then I can just have no respect for her policies, which is likely. Palin has done nothing to deserve anyone's respect, other than stepping down from a job she was unqualified for, with the main purpose being to make money for herself. Congrats on that, but no respect.
  9. #449  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Respect is to be earned, not awarded, even if by election. There are many of my peers I respect, and a few I really don't, yet some people think all people in my profession deserve respect, or all parents deserve the respect of their children. Neither should be the case. I'm sure you understand this; you don't "respect" your doctoral students for getting there, they have to earn your respect through their performance.
    I think we just go about it differently. I've worked with many MDs, some of which I didn't like, but I respected all of them for the same reason I respect all PhDs and PhD students -- for the process they chose to undertake. Going through the paces to become an MD or PhD is choosing the hard road, and I respect that. I have no doubt President Obama could make a lot more money, endure less stress, and not have to explain himself to 50% of the country that doesn't like him...if he chose a private life. I respect him for devoting his life to public service.

    Your point about parents is a good one. Becoming a parent is not always a hard decision made by responsible people or representative of years of hard work, but more like 8 ill-conceived minutes between two drunk people.
  10. #450  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I think we just go about it differently. I've worked with many MDs, some of which I didn't like, but I respected all of them for the same reason I respect all PhDs and PhD students -- for the process they chose to undertake. Going through the paces to become an MD or PhD is choosing the hard road, and I respect that. I have no doubt President Obama could make a lot more money, endure less stress, and not have to explain himself to 50% of the country that doesn't like him...if he chose a private life. I respect him for devoting his life to public service.

    Your point about parents is a good one. Becoming a parent is not always a hard decision made by responsible people or representative of years of hard work, but more like 8 ill-conceived minutes between two drunk people.
    There is nothing magical about choosing the direction you want to go. As you point out, intelligence is not the only key to success. Maybe it's because most students I deal with have already made the decision to try. I am glad they see that as an option, because it's not easy. But it's their performance (attitudes, knowledge, skills and behaviors) that earns respect, not the attempt.
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