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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan I Ezor View Post
    That the BP disaster was likely enabled by the failures of the lax regulators under that president just adds to the irony.
    According to the best information available currently, the current disaster was due to BP cutting corners in the process involved in capping the well in the transition from exploratory mode. That happened under the current regulators. If they were the same as the previous regulators, perhaps that should have been changed? Obviously there were higher priorities.
    I know critics of President Obama are trying to find any lever to compare him to the failures of George W. Bush, but it's just not rational.
    Personally, it seems to me that the rational comparisons between the two situations seem to fly by the supporters of either one of them.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. Micael's Avatar
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       #22  
    Pretty sad when the left's only defense of Obama is to continually invoke Bush's failures.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Except that it wasn't. What we have come to know as "Hurricane Katrina" was not in fact due to the hurricane. The worst case scenarios that have been forwarded on hurricanes and New Orleans always involve a slow-moving category 3 or higher storm along Betsy's path putting a lot of water down. New Orleans floods from rain water in certain sectors during regular rain, so a slow moving storm along Betsy's path dropping rain along with a storm surge giving the pumps nowhere to go with it would be catastrophic. That was not remotely what Katrina the storm did. Katrina was a purely man-made disaster. If the levees had been built to the specifications to which they supposedly were, you'd likely heard as little about Katrina as you probably did about Rita, Gustav, Ike, et al.
    OK, but I think you're making a semantic distinction here. Katrina was certainly a so-called Act of God (I heard He was ****ed off at gay people or something?), and Deepwater was an industrial accident. I clearly remember national coverage along the lines of "Is This The Big One?" for days before Katrina made landfall, so the idea that people were blindsided by the magnitude of the storm seems hard to believe.

    I agree that the aftermath of Katrina was "man-made" due to the problems with the levees, etc., but that doesn't explain everything away.

    Since when is leased property private property? If I lease a car, am I not required to have certain levels of insurance and certain terms for which I must pay penalties if I don't meet them? If I lease a house, does the owner of the house get absolved of any responsibility?
    I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect that drilling leases give a lot more control to oil companies than car rental contracts give to you or me. Believe me, I think BP is responsible (in both senses of the word), and I think they've said that themselves, haven't they?

    Seems to me if Obama had quickly jumped all over this he'd be accused of playing Messiah, using government military power to interfere with the prerogatives of business, etc., etc. I could be wrong on that, but I doubt it.
  4. #24  
    on msnbc pres. Obama in L.A And about to speak
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Pretty sad when the left's only defense of Obama is to continually invoke Bush's failures.
    Er, I believe it's folks in Ms. Noonan's camp who have dubbed the leak "Obama's Katrina." Rush, for one, couldn't wait to get that term out of his mouth. (Of course, Rush has also proposed that it was deliberate eco-terrorism, so . . . )
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       #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    Er, I believe it's folks in Ms. Noonan's camp who have dubbed the leak "Obama's Katrina." Rush, for one, couldn't wait to get that term out of his mouth. (Of course, Rush has also proposed that it was deliberate eco-terrorism, so . . . )
    I'm not talking about media, I'm talking about the posters in these threads. Any time there's a near negative laid out about Obama, the first response is to shoot the messenger (like you just did), and the second response is to either blame it on Bush entirely, or to contrast and compare Obama to Bush.

    Is it possible that Obama has no flaws then?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    OK, but I think you're making a semantic distinction here.
    Trust me. I'm not.
    Katrina was certainly a so-called Act of God (I heard He was ****ed off at gay people or something?),
    You have no idea how much those people tick me off either.
    and Deepwater was an industrial accident.
    No, Deepwater was negligence. Pure and simple. They cut corners to try and save a little money, and it blew up in their face.
    I clearly remember national coverage along the lines of "Is This The Big One?" for days before Katrina made landfall, so the idea that people were blindsided by the magnitude of the storm seems hard to believe.
    I think you misunderstand my point. That coverage assumed that Katrina would remain at a certain strength and take a certain track. If Katrina had come up Bayou Lafourche (like Betsy did) at Category 3 or higher, things would have been worse in some ways than what wound up happening. However, it took an easterly jog and lost a good amount of strength overnight. The hurricane itself was not of that great of a magnitude in NOLA.
    I agree that the aftermath of Katrina was "man-made" due to the problems with the levees, etc., but that doesn't explain everything away.
    Who said anything about explaining everything away?
    I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect that drilling leases give a lot more control to oil companies than car rental contracts give to you or me.
    Yes, they probably do, but how does that 'explain everything away'?
    Believe me, I think BP is responsible (in both senses of the word), and I think they've said that themselves, haven't they?
    People say a lot of things. I'm more interested at this point in what they're _doing_.
    Seems to me if Obama had quickly jumped all over this he'd be accused of playing Messiah, using government military power to interfere with the prerogatives of business, etc., etc. I could be wrong on that, but I doubt it.
    Listen to some of the comments Carville has been making lately. He's hurting himself in the long run far more by trying to remain detached.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ahh, I see. He's looking ahead and guiding us to the future. Meanwhile he assumes we can manage for ourselves. Gotcha.

    Seems sort of detached and delusional to me.
    well according to many posts by yourself and other right thinking people, thats exactly what you claim.... that you can manage for yourself...
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  9. #29  
    I'm not sure what more the current administration could have done. It's not like the US government has a fleet of 1000 oil clean up ships.

    Additionally the USA is basically bankrupt and has been for nearly 10 years. There isn't piles of public money to toss at this....anything we have to spend is propping up the economy or has already been spent spent on the military or the joke that is US health care.
    Sprint|Samsung Epic
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by ReaganElephant View Post
    The problem here is that the government is standing in the way of the cleanup efforts. Because the government has regulated this at nauseum all efforts to clean it up must be run up the bureacratic chain of command and containment measures that the governor of Louisianna would like to be putting into place must also be done with permission from the Feds. All of this slows down the process. Our president has shown little concern. This underscores the need for smaller federal government. The problem is that our government continues to regulate beyond what they can effectively enforce and then are incompetent to solve problems becomming entangled in their own red tape. Those who DO care in government largely have their hands tied. Obama on the other hand has been aloof. I do think he is far too concerned with fundamentally reshaping our country for the future than actually governing the Republic that he has been elected to and sworn to protect. I also frequently check the NOBAMA app.
    except i have seen repeatedly in these threads, that the right abhors the govt doing things with out thinking them through. You can not have it both ways.. now your demanding that everything and anything be done, to hell with thinking about it... hmmm whats next say he does open the taps,,, and lets them do what they think is required.. in 40 days are you going to be complaining that Obama and team allowed incompetants to do a job that was clearly wrong... hmmm oversight or no oversight.. make up your minds.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by ReaganElephant View Post
    The problem here is that the government is standing in the way of the cleanup efforts. Because the government has regulated this at nauseum all efforts to clean it up must be run up the bureacratic chain of command and containment measures that the governor of Louisianna would like to be putting into place must also be done with permission from the Feds. All of this slows down the process. Our president has shown little concern. This underscores the need for smaller federal government. The problem is that our government continues to regulate beyond what they can effectively enforce and then are incompetent to solve problems becomming entangled in their own red tape. Those who DO care in government largely have their hands tied. Obama on the other hand has been aloof. I do think he is far too concerned with fundamentally reshaping our country for the future than actually governing the Republic that he has been elected to and sworn to protect. I also frequently check the NOBAMA app.
    This is simply ridiculous. Business has proven time and time again that they cannot effectively manage their own industry safety. The greed of a totally "free market" will lead to larger messes and business looking to duck responsibility. Why is it that free marketers forget about the ills that the industrial revolution gave birth to? Their wasn't much government involvement with business then right?







    The history is clear. Removing government from business regulations will be like giving a lighter to a pyromaniac. Before you get all huffy, I get it you don't mean all regulations, just stuff that suits your argument right? What about overtime laws? Cobra requirements? Workplace safety?

    Heck, BP had to be basically forced to let Americans see the leak, and your arguing for less government intrusion?
    "When there is no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth"


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  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Trust me. I'm not.

    You have no idea how much those people tick me off either.

    No, Deepwater was negligence. Pure and simple. They cut corners to try and save a little money, and it blew up in their face.

    I think you misunderstand my point. That coverage assumed that Katrina would remain at a certain strength and take a certain track. If Katrina had come up Bayou Lafourche (like Betsy did) at Category 3 or higher, things would have been worse in some ways than what wound up happening. However, it took an easterly jog and lost a good amount of strength overnight. The hurricane itself was not of that great of a magnitude in NOLA.

    Who said anything about explaining everything away?

    Yes, they probably do, but how does that 'explain everything away'?

    People say a lot of things. I'm more interested at this point in what they're _doing_.

    Listen to some of the comments Carville has been making lately. He's hurting himself in the long run far more by trying to remain detached.
    Good post, and I reread your earlier one. You're right, I missed some of the points you were making.

    As for Carville, he may be a Democrat, but he's hardly a neutral party.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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       #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    well according to many posts by yourself and other right thinking people, thats exactly what you claim.... that you can manage for yourself...
    I've never said we didn't need a government or president.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by grappler View Post
    I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect that drilling leases give a lot more control to oil companies than car rental contracts give to you or me. Believe me, I think BP is responsible (in both senses of the word), and I think they've said that themselves, haven't they?
    You're right, a drilling lease gives a good majority of rights to the companies, because they are paying a sh** ton of $$ for the land, especially in off shore drilling. There are mineral rights and land rights when it comes to leasing, and both of them get expensive. But once you have signed a contract with the land owner, you are allowed to do a lot, you just have to stay within the bounds of the agreement.. and continue to pay $$ of course.

    BP should have been able to stop the leak, a world petroleum company like that should have the science and technology to do something about it. We are past the the length of time where companies/agencies/whoever need to be selfish and point fingers. We need to act together and stop the leak. I'm not sure what the reserves are in the formation they drilled into, if I had a geologic map to look at I might be able to tell you, but I just don't know, they're too secret about that. So there could be a massive amount of crude oil in the trap rock, and it could continue to erupt out like it has been.

    We need to pool resources; academic, government, whoever and try to solve the mess! As a geologist, it hurts me to know that we have cut open our planet and aren't cooperating together to patch her up.
  15. Micael's Avatar
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       #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrloserpunk View Post
    This is simply ridiculous. Business has proven time and time again that they cannot effectively manage their own industry safety. The greed of a totally "free market" will lead to larger messes and business looking to duck responsibility. Why is it that free marketers forget about the ills that the industrial revolution gave birth to? Their wasn't much government involvement with business then right?

    The history is clear. Removing government from business regulations will be like giving a lighter to a pyromaniac. Before you get all huffy, I get it you don't mean all regulations, just stuff that suits your argument right? What about overtime laws? Cobra requirements? Workplace safety?

    Heck, BP had to be basically forced to let Americans see the leak, and your arguing for less government intrusion?
    Yep. I love the 80 year old images though.

    I hadn't heard anyone arguing that the BP spill was caused by over regulation. I have heard accusations that the regulatory agencies involved and responsible were complicent and lax. But of course, that's Bush's fault.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #36  
    What it comes down to, is fear, fear of the left. The knee jerk reaction of the right is to scream smaller govt, less regulation, less taxes, get behind the barricades, etc etc.. Micael, no Obama is not without flaws. He has many, just like you and I.
    To say otherwise is patently false.
    I have seen post after post about Obama this Obama that. Hes a communist, hes a socialist, hes hes. Please give it a rest. Noonan, is a hack to whatever sells her readership. Plain and simple. If Obama has any fault there, its bringing her into the fold, she is a wolf in sheeps clothing, hell, she couldnt even stay with Bush. I would have a lot of respect for her if she hadnt cosied up to both of them.
    Based on the information given out at the time of the intial explosion and fire, the response was adequate.
    Fact, congress had to force BP to show the video, only then did they own up to a much higher volume of oil leaking. Something, that Obama and team hinted at repeatedly, but had no proof.
    Response as the disaster grew also ramped up.
    Yes Micael, in hindsight, Obama and team should have done a lot more. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
    At least he wasn't parroting Beck, imagine that one, ohhhh dont worry nature will take care of it. ya ok..
    BP, and the oil rig company have a lot to answer for, and not to make excuses, based on the sue sue sue attitude, I can understand why they were not forth coming with information. Except that has backfired in their face.
    I have read many of the reports from the people on the rig at the time of the explosion. One thing is clear, the ball got dropped, big time, and 11 people died. Many more are badly hurt. The enviroment is, if its lucky, on life support. But hey, you got other right wingers out there, Drill baby Drill, who feel that this sort of thing should be allowed to continue, and continue with even less govt regulation.
    The one that I truely love is, the free market would stop this sort of thing from happening. Ya right, as mrloserpunk pointed out, the almighty buck is what a free market is all about. The companies would put the average working person right back to where they were 90 years ago.
    So yes, Obama may have screwed the pooch on this, he should not be the total scapegoat either. Hell, Bush and his WMDs, well, I keep hearing how he didnt lie about them, he was misinformed. lol yup ok sure.
    Last edited by xForsaken; 05/28/2010 at 02:33 PM.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I've never said we didn't need a government or president.
    neither did i, i said you want less govt intervention in your lives, so your free market ideals can flourish. Micael, take the time, to look at all the facets that your govt is in, then give me and the rest of the people in here, a general idea of what you would like the govt out of. oh be prepared to answer questions, sharp pointy questions on your list.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
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       #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    neither did i, i said you want less govt intervention in your lives, so your free market ideals can flourish. Micael, take the time, to look at all the facets that your govt is in, then give me and the rest of the people in here, a general idea of what you would like the govt out of. oh be prepared to answer questions, sharp pointy questions on your list.
    Should I wear a blindfold and place an apple on my head while I'm at it?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Should I wear a blindfold and place an apple on my head while I'm at it?
    sure if you like, that way you wont flinch when im shooting arrows at the apple, if you flinch, the wrong way, well I wouldnt want to have an unfortunate accident.lol,
    no take any part of it you like, any part, hell use the oil regs, tell me and others, what you would like to see gone. like i said, be prepared for sharp pointy questions.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
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       #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    sure if you like, that way you wont flinch when im shooting arrows at the apple, if you flinch, the wrong way, well I wouldnt want to have an unfortunate accident.lol,
    no take any part of it you like, any part, hell use the oil regs, tell me and others, what you would like to see gone. like i said, be prepared for sharp pointy questions.
    Help me out here. You're the one that brought up less government in this thread. Which post of mine prompted that exactly? I'd want safety regs with regards to offshore drilling platforms, so I'm really confused as to which tra... er, position it is you're wishing me to take.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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