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  1. #361  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I get killed for this by my wacko liberal friends. I'm not a republican, but I like GWB. Most of the time he is not the smartest person in the room, which is fine. I don't want my president to be the smartest person in the room, that's what a cabinet is for. If the pres is a genius, why have a cabinet, so the president can advise them?? I respected GWB for his convictions, which I believe is an absolute requirement for leadership. I disagreed with him often, but I understood he believed he was doing what was necessary and right when making tough decisions (even if those decisions later turned out to be poorly made, which happened). So I know exactly how you feel. There is a non-elitist quality to him that I appreciate, and my lib friends continue to grill me on this subject.
    Why does "educated" = "elitist?" You do realize that GWB attended Yale, right?

    I have never got how people see GWB as some sort of "average, common man." He was the pampered son of a rich oil baron that never really worked a day in his life and had a bought ivy league education. How is that NOT elitist?

    And you don't care if our leader is a complete F-up, as long as HE "believed" what he is doing is right? I think I would rather have a leader that acts on his intelligence, not his "gut'"
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

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  2. #362  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    I think I would rather have a leader that acts on his intelligence, not his "gut'"
    "Reads" his intelligence. Obama can't be let off his teleprompter too long or he ends up stammering. It's almost painful when he doesn't have his teleprompter. But I give them credit for keeping him on it most of the time. Dang....kind of another compliment to this administration. Must be the summer heat.
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  3. #363  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    "Reads" his intelligence. Obama can't be let off his teleprompter too long or he ends up stammering. It's almost painful when he doesn't have his teleprompter. But I give them credit for keeping him on it most of the time. Dang....kind of another compliment to this administration. Must be the summer heat.
    Oldest, weakest argument there is.... the teleprompter.

    Presidents who have used teleprompters:

    George W. Bush
    Bill Clinton
    George H.W. Bush
    Ronald Reagan
    Jimmy Carter
    Gerald Ford (and in fact, his teleprompter frequently contained cues telling him what physical actions to use along with the words!)
    Lyndon B. Johnson
    John F. Kennedy
    Dwight D. Eisenhower
    Harry S. Truman

    Maybe GWB should have used it more so he would have had fewer gaffs...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  4. #364  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    [...] If the pres is a genius, why have a cabinet, so the president can advise them?? [...]
    Perhaps you're being imprecise intentionally, but being a genius does not mean that you know it all or are an expert on every aspect of anything. One of the hallmarks of intelligence, IMO, is the wisdom to realize what you don't know. The job of the cabinet is to advise the President on matters where he is not an expert (and honestly very few, if any, people capable of being elected President are going to be expert at much outside of politics). AAMOF, I value wisdom more than raw intelligence in a leader at that level.
    I respected GWB for his convictions, which I believe is an absolute requirement for leadership.
    Convictions are only valuable in a leader where standing behind their reasoning in a decision matters. Empty convictions like Bushie's too often lead to trouble.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. #365  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Oldest, weakest argument there is.... the teleprompter.

    Presidents who have used teleprompters:

    George W. Bush
    Bill Clinton
    George H.W. Bush
    Ronald Reagan
    Jimmy Carter
    Gerald Ford (and in fact, his teleprompter frequently contained cues telling him what physical actions to use along with the words!)
    Lyndon B. Johnson
    John F. Kennedy
    Dwight D. Eisenhower
    Harry S. Truman

    Maybe GWB should have used it more so he would have had fewer gaffs...
    Hmmm....never said other Presidents didn't use the teleprompter.....just saying that is why Obama comes across as this smart dude because his handlers rarely let him off it. I wish they would as he is far more entertaining when he isn't reading. Plus, he tends to talk about his socialist agenda more when he isn't reading what they want him to read. He can't help that though....he's just speaking what he believes then.
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  6. #366  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Hmmm....never said other Presidents didn't use the teleprompter.....just saying that is why Obama comes across as this smart dude because his handlers rarely let him off it. I wish they would as he is far more entertaining when he isn't reading. Plus, he tends to talk about his socialist agenda more when he isn't reading what they want him to read. He can't help that though....he's just speaking what he believes then.
    "Obama's socialist agenda...."

    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  7. Tedcas's Avatar
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    #367  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Hmmm....never said other Presidents didn't use the teleprompter.....just saying that is why Obama comes across as this smart dude because his handlers rarely let him off it. I wish they would as he is far more entertaining when he isn't reading. Plus, he tends to talk about his socialist agenda more when he isn't reading what they want him to read. He can't help that though....he's just speaking what he believes then.
    I seem to recall he did a rather nice job boxing the ears of the Republicans during the day long health care summit....
  8. #368  
    [QUOTE=Kenanator;2523393]"Obama's socialist agenda...."QUOTE]

    I knew you'd enjoy that. And you think I don't care.
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  9. #369  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tedcas View Post
    I seem to recall he did a rather nice job boxing the ears of the Republicans during the day long health care summit....
    You were watching another channel. Like when he swore he was correct on an issue....and later one of his little helpers came out and slipped a piece of paper in front of him and well...he wan't quite right. But that's history. His agenda that day was to look like he was reaching across the aisle...being the "big guy"....but it was just another show for the cameras.
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  10. Tedcas's Avatar
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    #370  
    He didn't use a teleprompter, and was in control the whole day was my only point....
  11. #371  
    Quote Originally Posted by tcrunner View Post
    We get it. There is nothing Obama can possibly do to satisfy partisan hacks.
    Not true....I've given him no grief for the McChrystal issue....and I have said he has done right by not closing Gitmo. I've also said he seems to be a good father. And, I have said he is a very good reader.
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  12. #372  
    Quote Originally Posted by Tedcas View Post
    He didn't use a teleprompter, and was in control the whole day was my only point....
    And my only point was that I only saw a made for TV "show".
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  13. #373  
    Quote Originally Posted by tcrunner View Post
    You left out excellent diction and penmanship.
    Not sure about penmanship....he's a lefty, isn't he?
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  14. Micael's Avatar
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       #374  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Oldest, weakest argument there is.... the teleprompter.

    Presidents who have used teleprompters:

    George W. Bush
    Bill Clinton
    George H.W. Bush
    Ronald Reagan
    Jimmy Carter
    Gerald Ford (and in fact, his teleprompter frequently contained cues telling him what physical actions to use along with the words!)
    Lyndon B. Johnson
    John F. Kennedy
    Dwight D. Eisenhower
    Harry S. Truman

    Maybe GWB should have used it more so he would have had fewer gaffs...
    I think his point wasn't that others hadn't used them. More the fact that he reveals himself once he goes off prompter, and people will lose faith in him faster - if that's possible. This guy's numbers are sinking fast.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. #375  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Perhaps you're being imprecise intentionally, but being a genius does not mean that you know it all or are an expert on every aspect of anything. One of the hallmarks of intelligence, IMO, is the wisdom to realize what you don't know. The job of the cabinet is to advise the President on matters where he is not an expert (and honestly very few, if any, people capable of being elected President are going to be expert at much outside of politics). AAMOF, I value wisdom more than raw intelligence in a leader at that level.
    I was partly kidding. You make an interesting point. I was discussing with my students the often misused or incorrectly interchanged terminology: knowledge, intelligence, and wisdom. Knowledge is for the cabinet, wisdom is for the person in charge (the pres), and intelligence in politics should be collective, i.e. our problems should be analyzed by the many, not the one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Convictions are only valuable in a leader where standing behind their reasoning in a decision matters. Empty convictions like Bushie's too often lead to trouble.
    I think I made myself clear; I think we both agreee he made some costly miscalculations, specifically Iraq (as did congress, the majority of which approved the war).
  16. #376  
    I notice that you left out what was leading you to categorize Fineman as 'increasingly conservative' or where on the spectrum you were suggesting he should fall now.
    Quote Originally Posted by tcrunner View Post
    It was never required for the same term to be used to understand its meaning.
    In this case, it seems that said understanding is drastically influenced by the partisanship of the reader. In my reading of the article, it was a piece about a man who put himself up as being a historic game-changer that is finding out that it's not so easy to change the game and is having to cope with a lot of things stacking up all at once. The ending of the story is far from written or decided, and his fate is to a large extent still within his own hands.
    The context in which this OpEd was placed isn't lost on a reader. This is, afterall, the partisan-skewed, disinformational "disaster" thread afterall.
    The direction a thread takes depends on who is participating in the discussion. The only way it's limited to falsely dichotomous partisan boundaries is within the minds of people too blind to acknowledge their own partisanship. Well, I suppose people with other axes to grind may fall into that same trap.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. NitOxYs's Avatar
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    #378  
    What you all seem to realize is that no matter what political spectrum you're a part of, we need to stop fighting. We have to have common ground we share and work on that. We can all agree that Obama's presidency is far from great. His initiatives from the get go were poorly formed, and based mostly his vision of what the country should be rather than what Americans want. Just as Bush was blamed for not responding to the disaster right away and Fema not being there to help, Obama is there to take the fall for this one too.

    The problem with comparing the 2 disasters is where the Federal blame comes into play. The State governments control what standards are put on the levees, and not the federal government, whereas the Federal government controls where we drill and where we can't drill. You can also blame the federal mineral agency for preventing shallow water drilling. It required BP to drill in depths it hadn't drilled before, albeit they decided to go ahead anyway.

    Obama's largest flaw here is that he put himself first and not the country. He pushed his own agenda before fixing things that needed to be fixed. Don't tell me I'm wrong because I'll just prove you to be naive. Economic Stimulus just gave these banks billions to screw us again. Don't play the "If we didn't bail them out, our economy would be destroyed". Well we're sitting on 100+ trillion dollars worth of unsecured loans that is a bubble just waiting to pop. Healthcare is another disaster coming our way, and so is Cap N trade if they try to pass that. Although I think they'll pass the Amnesty bill first making the illegal immigrants legal, which is great for the democratic party (A great majority vote democratic).

    Final Word here. This is really something to think about.
    The government works for us, and not vice versa. We should not rely on the government at all. We need to be SELF SUFFICIENT. If we become fully dependent on the government, our country will collapse, as we're seeing already. We should have government oversight on large corporations like BP, but when you have oversight on everything you do, it turns into more of a police state, and we lose our freedoms our founding men and women wanted us to have.
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  18. #379  
    Quote Originally Posted by NitOxYs View Post
    What you all seem to realize is that no matter what political spectrum you're a part of, we need to stop fighting.
    I realize this may be a semantic argument, but what we need to do is stop bickering and arguing (in the Python sense), and return to debating.
    We have to have common ground we share and work on that. We can all agree that Obama's presidency is far from great.
    I'm not sure we'd all agree on that. There are at least a few that think he's the BEST. PRESIDENT. EVAR! There are others that think he's the worst thing to ever happen to our country. I'm of the increasing opinion that he's the second coming of Carter. He's a somewhat well-intentioned soul that really didn't understand what he was getting himself into. As such, he's floundering in a lot of respects. Granted, he still has a backdoor chance at pulling a Clinton or Reagan and finding a way to inspiration, but I'm not sure if he's ideologically cut out for that.
    His initiatives from the get go were poorly formed, and based mostly his vision of what the country should be rather than what Americans want. Just as Bush was blamed for not responding to the disaster right away and Fema not being there to help, Obama is there to take the fall for this one too.
    There are, in reality, a lot of parallels to the two. Ironically, both are being held to a higher degree of responsibility than they should be on certain aspects of coping with the incident, and not really being held to account for the things they should be doing.
    The problem with comparing the 2 disasters is where the Federal blame comes into play.
    I'm not convinced of that.
    The State governments control what standards are put on the levees, and not the federal government,
    That is simply not so. The Federal government has taken an increasingly dominant role in such matters for a relatively long time, especially so since the Flood Control Act of 1928. The Corps of Engineers controls nearly every aspect of Flood Control. Coincidentally, they also absolve themselves of liability when those efforts result in harm instead of protection. There are some levee systems which are not completely controlled by the Feds (the ones in my home parish for example). However, various branches of the Federal Government still have a large degree of control even over those (permitting for example).
    whereas the Federal government controls where we drill and where we can't drill. You can also blame the federal mineral agency for preventing shallow water drilling. It required BP to drill in depths it hadn't drilled before, albeit they decided to go ahead anyway.
    Also not completely true. The fact of the matter is that it's where the oil is. That part of Obama's speech was correct. We have mostly tapped all of the easy reserves. We need to find alternatives. That doesn't mean we need to cut off our nose to spite our face and eliminate drilling altogether. It does mean that we should be pursuing other avenues of energy, though.
    Last edited by Toby; 06/26/2010 at 10:02 AM. Reason: Fixed a sentence that said the opposite of what it was supposed to
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19. #380  
    939 days
    2 hours
    21 minutes
    39 seconds

    just saying

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