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  1. srswarley's Avatar
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    #281  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Of course, to get that midrange unemployment rate you have to live in Texas and listen to the shrieking right wing cowboys. Not nearly worth it.
    They're not all cowboys, some are cowgirls.. and in Texas you have to watch out for them too..
  2. #282  
    Quote Originally Posted by bsburnham View Post
    They're not all cowboys, some are cowgirls.. and in Texas you have to watch out for them too..
    I believe in equal opportunity wingnuts.....
  3. groovy's Avatar
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    #283  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I'll be glad to pay more for gas and decrease my use of oil products.
    Why wait? You should already be decreasing your use of petroleum-based products. If you aren't, you're part of the problem.
  4. #284  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Why wait? You should already be decreasing your use of petroleum-based products. If you aren't, you're part of the problem.

    I think I do pretty well. Most days I ride a bike to work. Frankly, I own a car that burns way too much gas, but that is unfortunately a necessity. My wife and kids make up for it. I have solar heat for part of my house, use gas for heating, cooking and clothes drying.

    There are great advances in oil technology for collecting oil on land that weren't available a long time ago, but we haven't put forth the effort to use those. If we did, we could decrease the risk of drilling in sensitive areas. And the auto companies have a long history of not paying attention to conservation. We could do much better.
  5. #285  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The only mistake Florida has made is ignoring the possibility of a state income tax, like every other gulf state except Texas.
    Well, that and building a state economy which supposedly can't survive without other people bringing the fruits of their labor to it.
    Louisiana chose to take the risk.
    Did Louisiana grant the lease to BP? Did Louisiana choose to try and cap a well with poor control and a less than optimal BOP using non-standard operating procedures? The answer is no to both.
    They do not have as much to lose, with less than half the shoreline that Florida has, and Alabama and Mississippi have even less.
    Our shoreline is completely different from Florida, Alabama, and Mississippi anyway. We have far more to lose if we lose it. Florida gets some dirty beaches. We get dead marshes (read: hurricane buffer), dead seafood industry, and dead wildlife. Your hostility is completely misplaced.
    That's fine, but their risk screwed someone else.
    As I asked before, how much tourism has Florida received from the fruits of that labor? How much petroleum and natural gas and by-products does Florida consume from the fruits of that labor?
    Does that seem to make sense?
    No, it doesn't. Florida (and any other state that could be leveraging petroleum resources but 'chooses' not to) should be levied with additional taxes on any petroleum, natural gas, or other by-products that it buys and that income 'redistributed' to the states that do 'choose' to take the risks involved in producing it.
    Given the minute percentage of our oil that is gotten from the gulf, it just plain isn't worth it in my state.
    33% of the domestic oil production. 11% of the domestic natural gas production. $200 billion in federal government revenue since 1953. The US consumes more oil in 5 minutes than this spill is producing per day according to the highest estimates. The Gulf brings in about 10-12% of the US daily consumption. Not exactly minute.
    The "indirect" moneys you discuss go to relatively few people in your state.
    The indirect moneys go to employing quite a few people. Sure, Gary and Boysie make a lot of money, but they also give a lot of people jobs and pay a lot of taxes. But ultimately, they won't be hurting with a moratorium. Gary might not get to buy the rest of the Hornets, but he won't be out on the street or having to file for unemployment. The thousands of people they employ probably won't dodge that pain, though.
    Tourism dollars affect almost every person in the state of Florida. I don't consider that an unfortunate choice.
    I'd be willing to bet that losing 30-40% of the domestic seafood production and 33% of the domestic oil production is going to affect almost every person in the US. But I suppose that doesn't matter in the 'big picture'.
    I wouldn't call it a retreat. It's more a place of business. I do not pull anything; what I need is already over there.
    How much of it is based on petroleum?

    Reference
    Last edited by Toby; 06/17/2010 at 07:36 PM. Reason: Added link to some numbers for reference.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. #286  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Well, that and building a state economy which supposedly can't survive without other people bringing the fruits of their labor to it.

    Did Louisiana grant the lease to BP? Did Louisiana choose to try and cap a well with poor control and a less than optimal BOP using non-standard operating procedures? The answer is no to both.

    Our shoreline is completely different from Florida, Alabama, and Mississippi anyway. We have far more to lose if we lose it. Florida gets some dirty beaches. We get dead marshes (read: hurricane buffer), dead seafood industry, and dead wildlife. Your hostility is completely misplaced.

    As I asked before, how much tourism has Florida received from the fruits of that labor? How much petroleum and natural gas and by-products does Florida consume from the fruits of that labor?

    No, it doesn't. Florida (and any other state that could be leveraging petroleum resources but 'chooses' not to) should be levied with additional taxes on any petroleum, natural gas, or other by-products that it buys and that income 'redistributed' to the states that do 'choose' to take the risks involved in producing it.

    33% of the domestic oil production. 11% of the domestic natural gas production. $200 billion in federal government revenue since 1953. The US consumes more oil in 5 minutes than this spill is producing per day according to the highest estimates. The Gulf brings in about 10-12% of the US daily consumption. Not exactly minute.

    The indirect moneys go to employing quite a few people. Sure, Gary and Boysie make a lot of money, but they also give a lot of people jobs and pay a lot of taxes. But ultimately, they won't be hurting with a moratorium. Gary might not get to buy the rest of the Hornets, but he won't be out on the street or having to file for unemployment. The thousands of people they employ probably won't dodge that pain, though.

    I'd be willing to bet that losing 30-40% of the domestic seafood production and 33% of the domestic oil production is going to affect almost every person in the US. But I suppose that doesn't matter in the 'big picture'.

    How much of it is based on petroleum?

    Reference
    The area that I frequent has no beaches and is all marsh. In fact it is very simliar to Louisiana. It could all be destroyed. And the fact is that Louisiana doesn't come close to Florida in terms of the percent of income due to fisheries.

    The report also breaks down the sales, income and job figures for each coastal state. The highest amount of sales generated by the commercial fishing industry were in California ($9.8 billion), Florida ($5.2 billion), Massachusetts ($4.4 billion), Washington ($3.8 billion), and Alaska ($3 billion). The most jobs were generated in California (179,000), Florida (103,000), Massachusetts (83,000), Washington (75,000) and Texas (47,000).
    Saltwater recreational fishing generated its highest economic effect in total sales and jobs generated in Florida ($7.6 billion sales, 131,000 jobs); Texas ($2.2 billion sales, 34,000 jobs); California ($1.9 billion sales, 23,000 jobs); North Carolina ($1.2 billion sales, 24,000 jobs); and Louisiana ($1.2 billion sales, 27,000 jobs).
    NOAA - National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration - New Economic Report Finds Commercial and Recreational Fishing Generated More Than Two Million Jobs

    In terms of recreational fishing, West Florida alone has four times as many trips, twice as many jobs, and almost three times the income as Louisiana.

    In term of the commercial industry, Florida's total income is over $5 billion compared to Louisiana's $1 billion.

    http://www.st.nmfs.noaa.gov/st5/publ...ables_econ.pdf

    I would love to find the percent of state income that is due to the gulf for Louisiana and Florida but I couldn't. Florida stands to lose up to $60 billion dollars in tourism, compared to $2 billion for Louisiana. Pardon me if I have no sympathy for Louisiana and their poor choices.

    How Much Will the Oil Spill Cost? The Washington Independent
  7. #287  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I guess you haven't watched the news. I'll let someone else spoon feed you the facts about MMS.

    Meanwhile, how ironic you slam me for accusing regulators of corruption, while in the same breath pointing at Cheney. If he caused this accident, bring it.
    no i havnt been watching the news.. slam u no such luck.. i never said he caused this accident, i said he penned the softening of the regulations..big diff.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  8. #288  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The area that I frequent has no beaches and is all marsh. In fact it is very simliar to Louisiana. It could all be destroyed.
    If it is, what will you do for income?
    And the fact is that Louisiana doesn't come close to Florida in terms of the percent of income due to fisheries.
    Who will be impacted? Pleasure boaters and day sailors. I'm talking about working for a living. I'm talking about food that people eat. Maybe people in Florida make more money off of it, but what do they produce? Trophies?
    I would love to find the percent of state income that is due to the gulf for Louisiana and Florida but I couldn't. Florida stands to lose up to $60 billion dollars in tourism, compared to $2 billion for Louisiana. Pardon me if I have no sympathy for Louisiana and their poor choices.
    Look in the NYT. According to them, Louisiana stands to lose at least $65 billion compared to $0 for Florida in oil and natural gas related dollars. I guess we're all out of sympathy here too.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. #289  
    And while we're talking about personal impact, I'd like to add that we shouldn't forget something in all of this...

    I admit that it's easier for me to remember since I was in the law office where Chris works all day today.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  10. #290  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Who will be impacted? Pleasure boaters and day sailors. I'm talking about working for a living. I'm talking about food that people eat. Maybe people in Florida make more money off of it, but what do they produce? Trophies?
    What is it about 108,000 jobs versus 43,000 jobs in commercial fishing that you don't understand? There are more people "working for a living" in commercial fisheries in Florida than in Louisiana. A lot more. Does commercial fishing sound like pleasure boating and day sailing to you?
  11. #291  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    And while we're talking about personal impact, I'd like to add that we shouldn't forget something in all of this...

    I admit that it's easier for me to remember since I was in the law office where Chris works all day today.
    It is a quickly forgotten aspect of the spill, no doubt. Working in an industry that values speed over safety is bound to result in heartbreak sooner or later. There is no excuse for those deaths, and BP should be punished if not prosecuted, which I hope they will be. The economic impact is a different issue, however.
  12. #292  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    What is it about 108,000 jobs versus 43,000 jobs in commercial fishing that you don't understand?
    What percentage of the population is that? How many jobs is Florida potentially going to lose in the energy production industry in comparison?
    There are more people "working for a living" in commercial fisheries in Florida than in Louisiana.
    Even granting your numbers are without question, that looks like 0.6% of the population vs. around 1% of the population. What percentage of seafood consumed domestically is that? According to CNN, only Alaska produces more seafood than Louisiana. If both are true, then it seems that Louisiana is producing more with less effort and at lower cost. We obviously need to be penalized.
    A lot more. Does commercial fishing sound like pleasure boating and day sailing to you?
    Sorry if my sense of humor offends you. It's a line from Jaws that popped into my head when you started comparing recreational fishing economies.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  13. #293  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The economic impact is a different issue, however.
    Yes, and one that you seem to be looking at from a very one-dimensional perspective.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  14. #294  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    What percentage of the population is that? How many jobs is Florida potentially going to lose in the energy production industry in comparison?
    My daughter lives in Louisiana. Her fiancee is in a Ph.D. program in hydrology and has been studying the marshes in Louisiana for two years now. As someone who spends a lot of my own time in marsh zones, I can definitely relate to what the marshes are going through. In fact there is a reasonable chance I will be in the panhandle for a few days next week helping. Unlike the east coast, the west coast has many many miles of marshes that will be damaged; it's not all beaches, which is what is being shown on the news. What has happened in Louisiana is horrible, and in fact even if nothing ever floated up on the shores of the west Florida coast, it would still negatively impact the commercial interests in Florida. The federal no-fish zone is not that far off Tampa. But Florida chose to ban offshore drilling. They had a priority. Louisiana chose otherwise. The energy jobs they lose are directly related to that decision.
  15. #295  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    [...] But Florida chose to ban offshore drilling. They had a priority. Louisiana chose otherwise. The energy jobs they lose are directly related to that decision.
    Sure, just like any tourism jobs Florida loses are related to its decision to put all their eggs in that basket. You're using the same one dimensional analysis.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  16. #296  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Sure, just like any tourism jobs Florida loses are related to its decision to put all their eggs in that basket. You're using the same one dimensional analysis.
    That's absurd reasoning. Florida bears no responsibility for what Louisiana chose to do, yet is losing jobs because of it...including commercial fishing jobs. You think somehow Florida would have been better off betting on the oil industry? I think not.
  17. #297  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    That's absurd reasoning.
    I agree. That's the point.
    Florida bears no responsibility for what Louisiana chose to do,
    Really? Why do you think I've been asking you how much petroleum, natural gas, and by-products Florida uses? How do all those tourists get to Florida? How much petroleum and by-products does that oh so much more significant commercial and recreational fishing industry use?
    yet is losing jobs because of it...including commercial fishing jobs.
    They can always apply for unemployment, or produce renewable energy jobs.
    You think somehow Florida would have been better off betting on the oil industry? I think not.
    My point is that they did. They just bet that other people would do the heavy lifting while they reap the benefits. We're just the street level drug dealers or prostitutes. You guys are the users/johns in your luxury cars. Why act surprised that you've wound up with a disease?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #298  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    My point is that they did. They just bet that other people would do the heavy lifting while they reap the benefits. We're just the street level drug dealers or prostitutes. You guys are the users/johns in your luxury cars. Why act surprised that you've wound up with a disease?
    That is very interesting how you put that.....good job!
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  19. Ziplock's Avatar
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    #299  
    OBAMA!!!! +1 my vote

  20. #300  
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...

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