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  1. #261  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Sheesh, what a speech. Talk about bait and switch. The country wants to know if and when the leak is going to get plugged, and he uses it as an opportunity to shove crap and trade down our throats.
    I didn't even get to see the speech since it was over so quickly. When I realized the time, he was closing. What I found interesting were the opinions of the pundits afterward. Not a single person had much positive to say. Oh, and I was watching it on CNN since I heard Anderson Cooper was going to have Garland on after. Apparently even the guys on MSNBC were having trouble with it. If you can't get Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews to sing Obama's praises, you're doing something wrong.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #262  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yeah, me and the rest of Florida is just delighted that La. has not learned anything from this. We have gotten absolutely no income from their oil drilling but are about to have our primary industry significantly impacted because they were willing to take chances by trusting industry to self-regulate. I could care less about their support. I hope they extend the moratorium for five years.
    Here's a nice article about the MMS' regulators in the Gulf

    So Government Regulators are better?
  3. #263  
    Us stupid Louisianians should just shut up and stop trying to produce fossil fuels. The US would obviously be better off without the products of our risk and labor.
    ANWR Feature - Products Made From Oil
    How much of your lifestyle are you willing to give up?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #264  
    Quote Originally Posted by mayo1024 View Post
    Here's a nice article about the MMS' regulators in the Gulf

    So Government Regulators are better?
    With Cheney and Bush involved in the MMS at the time those events took place, I would consider that to be no governmental regulation at all. I bet they'll be better now.

    Who said anything about trusting industry to self-regulate? I'm not sure who you're been listening to from Louisiana, but there is no trust of BP or industry in this case. We also had no regulatory authority. The feds control it and get nearly all of the direct income.
    Your state had the choice to ban drilling, as Florida did. Instead you chose to allow it, and your choice caused an economic disaster in my state.

    And if the feds get nearly all the income, then stopping drilling until it's demonstrated to be safer shouldn't have much impact, correct?

    I'll be glad to pay more for gas and decrease my use of oil products. Some people have been trying to do this for some time but are usually laughed at by the "Drill Baby Drill" crowd. This spill will impact me personally, in fact, and many friends of mine as well. If you can't say the same, then you have no say in the matter.
  5. Micael's Avatar
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       #265  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Us stupid Louisianians should just shut up and stop trying to produce fossil fuels. The US would obviously be better off without the products of our risk and labor.
    ANWR Feature - Products Made From Oil
    How much of your lifestyle are you willing to give up?
    Balloons!?! They're taking away our BALLOONS?!?! Noooooooo!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. Micael's Avatar
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       #266  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    With Cheney and Bush involved in the MMS at the time those events took place, I would consider that to be no governmental regulation at all. I bet they'll be better now.
    Your spin totally fails, David - "...involved in the MMS..." What a crock!

    MMS is a typical example of the corrupt government regulators that you love to promote as the answer for all private industries. What a joke.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #267  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Your spin totally fails, David - "...involved in the MMS..." What a crock!

    MMS is a typical example of the corrupt government regulators that you love to promote as the answer for all private industries. What a joke.

    Just so I'm clear about this....you are saying that the administration is not responsible for what takes place during their time of leadership, correct? Even if the president and VP are historically involved in the said industry, and have had multiple meetings regarding loosening of regulations, and have fostered a culture of laxity that resulted in the said result? Is that really what you are saying? Guess that sure lets Obama off the hook.
  8. Micael's Avatar
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       #268  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Just so I'm clear about this....you are saying that the administration is not responsible for what takes place during their time of leadership, correct? Even if the president and VP are historically involved in the said industry, and have had multiple meetings regarding loosening of regulations, and have fostered a culture of laxity that resulted in the said result? Is that really what you are saying? Guess that sure lets Obama off the hook.
    Try rereading my post. We both know that those are your words, not mine.

    I think I pretty clearly pointed out that government regulators are corrupt and ineffective. MMS is a blatant example.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. #269  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Try rereading my post. We both know that those are your words, not mine.

    I think I pretty clearly pointed out that government regulators are corrupt and ineffective. MMS is a blatant example.

    They certainly were under the previous administration. It is nice to know that you've given a clean slate to the President of the United States for the remainder of his two terms in office, regardless of what regulators do. I'm not sure some of your fellow conservatives will agree with you on that, and I'm not even sure I do, but I applaud you for it.
  10. #270  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Try rereading my post. We both know that those are your words, not mine.

    I think I pretty clearly pointed out that government regulators are corrupt and ineffective. MMS is a blatant example.
    First, can you give me and the rest, an article or arrest announcement where one of these people were nailed with corruption. If not, then pls rephrase that or retract. If you can supply us with something along those lines great.

    Two, if they are ineffective, that would go directly to the direction they received from their superiors, which in the case of most of this, is directly linked to the past admin and their stance on oil regulations, in particular Cheney.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  11. Micael's Avatar
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       #271  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    They certainly were under the previous administration. It is nice to know that you've given a clean slate to the President of the United States for the remainder of his two terms in office, regardless of what regulators do. I'm not sure some of your fellow conservatives will agree with you on that, and I'm not even sure I do, but I applaud you for it.
    Good god, David! You spin faster and harder than a Whirling Dervish on uppers! If I said corn grew in Kansas, you'd thank me for putting air in your tires!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. Micael's Avatar
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       #272  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    First, can you give me and the rest, an article or arrest announcement where one of these people were nailed with corruption. If not, then pls rephrase that or retract. If you can supply us with something along those lines great.

    Two, if they are ineffective, that would go directly to the direction they received from their superiors, which in the case of most of this, is directly linked to the past admin and their stance on oil regulations, in particular Cheney.
    I guess you haven't watched the news. I'll let someone else spoon feed you the facts about MMS.

    Meanwhile, how ironic you slam me for accusing regulators of corruption, while in the same breath pointing at Cheney. If he caused this accident, bring it.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #273  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    With Cheney and Bush involved in the MMS at the time those events took place, I would consider that to be no governmental regulation at all. I bet they'll be better now.
    I wouldn't get too cozy with the believe that the MMS all of a sudden was in the pocket of big oil once Bush/Cheney came along. It has been for a very very long time. Bush/Cheney didn't have t change a thing as far as of the MMS was concerned. A re-org as suggested by the Obama Administration is clearly needed and something I support.

    Special Report: Deepwater spills and short attention spans | Reuters

    A quote specifically about BOPs....
    Under the Clinton administration, the MMS worked closely with the oil industry. In August 1997, the agency announced a relaxation of testing requirements for blowout preventers, or BOPs, as the industry called such safety equipment. The technology was designed to allow rig operators to control or shut down a well that is even at risk of blowout, let alone about to blow.

    The rule change, which came "at the request of the industry," as the MMS put it, pushed back BOP tests to once every 14 days from once every 7 days. That move alone would save oil companies up to $46 million a year by speeding up drilling times.
  14. #274  
    Quote Originally Posted by solarus View Post
    I wouldn't get too cozy with the believe that the MMS all of a sudden was in the pocket of big oil once Bush/Cheney came along. It has been for a very very long time. Bush/Cheney didn't have t change a thing as far as of the MMS was concerned. A re-org as suggested by the Obama Administration is clearly needed and something I support.

    Special Report: Deepwater spills and short attention spans | Reuters

    A quote specifically about BOPs....
    Can't say I'm surprised about that. It's just a suspicion that things got worse. O'Leary was not exactly known as an environmentalist. She was involved in running a power company as I recall. Salazar is really no prize either in terms of environmental concerns. But I bet he is now.
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    #275  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Can't say I'm surprised about that. It's just a suspicion that things got worse. O'Leary was not exactly known as an environmentalist. She was involved in running a power company as I recall. Salazar is really no prize either in terms of environmental concerns. But I bet he is now.
    Don;t get me wrong, having the suspicion, given Bush's and Cheney's background in the industry, is completely understandable, but as far as the MMS is concerned I've yet to see any prove that things were worse. And from reading the article I posted I'm not sure how they could have gotten worse

    The oil & gas industry, in all likelihood, exerted their influence in the Bush/Cheney administration, but more so in the larger strategic issues - ex. I doubt it was coincidence that the government incentives for wind power plants died under the administration. However, the same suspicion could be thrown at the Obama administration (Obama himself was a huge beneficiary of BP's donations in the election) - given his announcement to expand off shore drilling just a week before the Deepwater Horizon sank.

    In the end though its basically appearances, nothing solid, admittedly much less solid in the case of the Obama Administration.

    As for the MMS, I'm basically of the opinion the MMS wasn't even on the administration's radar prior to the disaster. And to be honest, why should it have been. Afterall its basically an operational arm of government and typically isn't involved in formulating energy policy. The Administration clearly had/has bigger issues to contend with than bureaucratic operational issues of the MMS.
    Last edited by solarus; 06/17/2010 at 12:32 PM.
  16. #276  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Your state had the choice to ban drilling, as Florida did. Instead you chose to allow it, and your choice caused an economic disaster in my state.
    The disaster in question took place in waters well outside the jurisdiction of my state. The disaster in question could have also been prevented by simply following industry best practices and not cutting corners. But if it makes you feel better to blame Louisiana for Florida putting all its eggs into an already declining tourism industry basket, don't let me stop you.
    And if the feds get nearly all the income, then stopping drilling until it's demonstrated to be safer shouldn't have much impact, correct?
    They get the _direct_ income (they get the royalties since they lease out the drilling). Indirect income is a completely different matter. We'll all be feeling it then. Like I said, take a personal and professional inventory of everything petroleum-based in your life. What do you drive to your gulf coast retreat? Do you pull a boat behind it? How many devices and products used in the course of your practice are petroleum-based?
    I'll be glad to pay more for gas and decrease my use of oil products.
    How much more are you willing to pay? What about by-products?
    Some people have been trying to do this for some time but are usually laughed at by the "Drill Baby Drill" crowd.
    I have no problem with alternative energy research and advocacy (personally, I'm looking into solar panels at my house). What I take issue with is the attitude that all drilling should be banned when many advocates have no clue how their lives would be affected.
    This spill will impact me personally, in fact, and many friends of mine as well. If you can't say the same, then you have no say in the matter.
    The spill will most certainly affect me personally, as will the moratorium. It will affect also family and friends where they live and work. But then again, that's the reason for the frustration and the criticism. We have no say in the matter.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #277  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    The disaster in question took place in waters well outside the jurisdiction of my state. The disaster in question could have also been prevented by simply following industry best practices and not cutting corners. But if it makes you feel better to blame Louisiana for Florida putting all its eggs into an already declining tourism industry basket, don't let me stop you.

    They get the _direct_ income (they get the royalties since they lease out the drilling). Indirect income is a completely different matter. We'll all be feeling it then. Like I said, take a personal and professional inventory of everything petroleum-based in your life. What do you drive to your gulf coast retreat? Do you pull a boat behind it? How many devices and products used in the course of your practice are petroleum-based?

    How much more are you willing to pay? What about by-products?

    I have no problem with alternative energy research and advocacy (personally, I'm looking into solar panels at my house). What I take issue with is the attitude that all drilling should be banned when many advocates have no clue how their lives would be affected.
    The only mistake Florida has made is ignoring the possibility of a state income tax, like every other gulf state except Texas. Louisiana chose to take the risk. They do not have as much to lose, with less than half the shoreline that Florida has, and Alabama and Mississippi have even less. That's fine, but their risk screwed someone else. Does that seem to make sense? Given the minute percentage of our oil that is gotten from the gulf, it just plain isn't worth it in my state. The "indirect" moneys you discuss go to relatively few people in your state. Tourism dollars affect almost every person in the state of Florida. I don't consider that an unfortunate choice.

    I wouldn't call it a retreat. It's more a place of business. I do not pull anything; what I need is already over there.
  18. Micael's Avatar
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       #278  
    Yes... it's amazing how Texas can have no state tax and be business friendly (and not so union friendly), while at the same time having one strongest economies and lowest unemployment rates in the country. Strange stuff, that.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #279  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Yes... it's amazing how Texas can have no state tax and be business friendly (and not so union friendly), while at the same time having one strongest economies and lowest unemployment rates in the country. Strange stuff, that.
    As you know, I totally support them. Especially their effort to secede.

    Texas had lower unemployment than Florida (8.3 vs. 12) but they are also considerably higher than many states like Louisiana (6.7), Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, Maryland, and even their neighbor Oklahoma (6.6).

    Of course, to get that midrange unemployment rate you have to live in Texas and listen to the shrieking right wing cowboys. Not nearly worth it.

    Regional and State Employment and Unemployment Summary
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       #280  
    you have to live in Texas and listen to the shrieking right wing cowboys
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

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