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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by bennish View Post
    also, dbd - we're actually all kinda disturbed and wary of you because you HAVE nuked somebody. You're the only country in the world that ever has nuked somebody. And far from it making the u.s. seem like the cool kid, it actually makes you seem like the creepy kid who could snap at any moment... and we don't really wanna sit next to you at lunch.

    i'm talking about the u.s. a government/military/nation here. The actual PEOPLE in the u.s. are lovely.
    Yes....the smarter thing would have been to just invade Japan and lose or injure 100,000 more American lives and have WWII extended longer. But no....we silly Americans dealt the death blow, saved American lives, and ended the war. Weird thing about war....the goal is to kill the enemy. If I remember my history, Japan decided to "wake the sleeping giant" with that little sneak attack on PH....they shouldn't have done that. I wasn't even born yet, but I have no problem with the decision to use the nuke. War is hell, right?
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    To Nuke a city, to get one man?! seems a little over kill to me. If Dear little leader, was to attack the south, I think he would get far more then he bargained for. I am not sure China would sit still with it. They have intervened in the past, with other of their sat nations. China has to know, that as much as Kim is playing the brinkmanship game with the west, he is also playing it with China. They understand the politics of Korea much better then we do.
    I also believe, that China would strike back if the west was to drop a nuke on NK. It would escalate from there. Should we do nothing, perhaps, that is exactly what we should do. Nothing. Send no aid, send no money. Quietly meet with the powers in the area, and do it. No announcements, NK wants to be isolated, then isolate them. Completely. Do not talk to them, in any way shape or form. Interdict their shipping, check every load. Freeze all assets. Refuse to get into a war of words with them. They would ignore it anyway, while ratcheting up the rhetoric. One of two things would happen, one they collapse, two they attack, if they attack, do not cross the 39th. Stop them cold. Give China no reason to put 2 million plus troops in the field against the west. Not to mention the rest of their sizable and fairly well armed army, airforce and navy.
    Your argument for not sending aid, or doing business with them is simple, we are a free market system, we decide who we do and dont do business with. Kim demands in some speeches that we give him money, food, aid and so on... as if he is a powerhouse of the east. Not even China would support him if he attacked over that.
    Yo "X", I gotta say I think I agree with you .....just ignore the little dude. He seems to always want attention, so just ignore him. I said in a previous post I agreed with the nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but to nuke N. Korea, well....that just seems like an extreme reaction. If we were going to nuke anyone, save that for Iran....I feel certain they (Iran) would use it on us if they had it ready to go.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  3. #23  
    Well Hiroshima and Nagasaki, were terrible things, the loss of life from an actual invasion of Japan, civilian wise, would have made those two events look like a walk in the park.. Iran, well that is a different ball of wax. Nuking them, would probably be worse for the U.S. and the western world.
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    #24  
    Nobody's going to nuke anyone. To me, NK is China's crazy pet pit bull. Publicly, they can't control him, but if you come meaning to do the little guy any harm you'll have to answer to his handlers. There are two reasons for this: 1) NK can do things China would like to but can't; and 2) if NK can't control it's borders, and the population within them, China has an enormous problem. Ultimately, anything that's done about NK will have to be done with the cooperation, or at least tacit approval of China. That rules out most overt military actions.
  5. #25  
    I don't know, my opinion is that American govt and the American mentality should just stop thinking that they are these white saviours out to save poor yellow-skinned slitty eyes orients because they subscribe to a different value from white supreme powers.
  6. bennish's Avatar
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    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by dan02gt View Post
    People in other countries may think we are the weird creepy kid, but the bottom line is a lot people in a lot of other countries lives are a better because of us. We may not always do the best thing but we try.
    dan, some excellent points. thanks. my argument isn't that anyone should get rid of nukes (although i like the idea that everyone would, it's not very practical). My only argument is that they should never, ever, ever, EVER be used, under any circumstances, including retaliation. The ONLY good that nuclear weapons serve is deterrence (i'm not entirely a mutual assured destruction fan, but i'm not an expert either). I can think of no situation where the actual USE of a nuke would be beneficial to anyone. Maybe in retaliation you say? What would that achive? If country A has already nuked country B, county B launching won't bring anyone back to life.

    as for your last point quoted above - i know, and i don't know about everyone else, but i think trying is all one can do, and i respect the united states for that.

    as for atomic bombs "ending the war early and saving american (and aussie, so thankyou) lives" (you do realise the aussies and other nations fought quite closely to the americans in the pacific, right?), it brings back my argument. What's worth it? We're talking a lot of allied soldiers lives, vs. a lot of CIVILIAN lives. again, if by shooting an innocent pregnant woman with a baby you could save 100 people... would you?
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    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by NiceGuy View Post
    I don't know, my opinion is that American govt and the American mentality should just stop thinking that they are these white saviours out to save poor yellow-skinned slitty eyes orients because they subscribe to a different value from white supreme powers.
    i guess this is also an interesting argument. Is it anyone's business but korea's? It's a fine line. On one hand, you can't police the world. On the other hand, what if inaction on the US's part means more people and other countries suffer?

    Price of power.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by RPFTW View Post
    IDK, withdrawling from the UN, seems like isolation from the global community to me....
    "When there is no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth"


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  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Nobody's going to nuke anyone. To me, NK is China's crazy pet pit bull. Publicly, they can't control him, but if you come meaning to do the little guy any harm you'll have to answer to his handlers. There are two reasons for this: 1) NK can do things China would like to but can't; and 2) if NK can't control it's borders, and the population within them, China has an enormous problem. Ultimately, anything that's done about NK will have to be done with the cooperation, or at least tacit approval of China. That rules out most overt military actions.
    I agree, but if china is going to let that Pit bull obliterate Seoul without being willing to meet us in Pyongyang, we need to reevaluate why we are assisting in making them the largest superpower on the planet. Don't get me wrong, i don't think china wants this to spin out of control, but the ball is in their court, either they embrace the global community responsible for their own renaissance, or they watch as their pet failed nation is dismantled and the march of democracy advance to their doorsteps....

    IDK, I guess I am sick of the game playing with NK. **** or get off the pot already!
    "When there is no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth"


    PM me your questions, If I cant find an answer, I'll show you who can.
  10.    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Yes....the smarter thing would have been to just invade Japan and lose or injure 100,000 more American lives and have WWII extended longer. But no....we silly Americans dealt the death blow, saved American lives, and ended the war. Weird thing about war....the goal is to kill the enemy. If I remember my history, Japan decided to "wake the sleeping giant" with that little sneak attack on PH....they shouldn't have done that. I wasn't even born yet, but I have no problem with the decision to use the nuke. War is hell, right?
    dude, I think hell just froze over. But I agree with you.
    "When there is no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth"


    PM me your questions, If I cant find an answer, I'll show you who can.
  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by NiceGuy View Post
    I don't know, my opinion is that American govt and the American mentality should just stop thinking that they are these white saviours out to save poor yellow-skinned slitty eyes orients because they subscribe to a different value from white supreme powers.
    White Saviors? You would rather we watch an entire country starve due to an insane dictator?

    You would have let the russians place nukes in cuba?

    I assume you would have not shipped weapons to the British during ww1?

    Alot more jews would have died in ww2.....



    Boosh screwed our credibility with iraq. Losing the global communities support was the biggest disaster outta his administration

    clemgrad85 well that didnt last long
    "When there is no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth"


    PM me your questions, If I cant find an answer, I'll show you who can.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrloserpunk View Post
    White Saviors? You would rather we watch an entire country starve due to an insane dictator?

    You would have let the russians place nukes in cuba?

    I assume you would have not shipped weapons to the British during ww1?

    Alot more jews would have died in ww2.....

    Boosh screwed our credibility with iraq. Losing the global communities support was the biggest disaster outta his administration

    clemgrad85 well that didnt last long
    I guess its precisely this kind of Judeo-christian-people-of-the-book saviour mentality that has caused so much more problems for others. We seem to forgot that the current problem with terrorism has its roots in American govt supporting various regimes including the Talebans and Sadam Hussein over the years. Look what happend to the Vietnam war?

    On the "other-side" of the world (yes, there are other thinking minds outside America) where a lot of us are Buddhists or Hindi or Taoist and grew up in a more mulit-cultural environment, we subscribe differing views that does not hail from a singular saviour mentality to punish and right wrongs. We don't always need to embark on moral justice and using violence to pursue "peace" (which is an oxymoron)... and pershaps we have a better idea of how peace can be achieve, just that self-righteous US policy is always beating the loudest drums.

    Peace can only be achieved when we ourselves come to see the world as it is and comes to peace with it. Violence and threats are counter productive to peace and does nothing but causes sorrow and suffering in the name of peace.
  13. groovy's Avatar
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    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by mrloserpunk View Post
    I agree, but if china is going to let that Pit bull obliterate Seoul without being willing to meet us in Pyongyang, we need to reevaluate why we are assisting in making them the largest superpower on the planet. Don't get me wrong, i don't think china wants this to spin out of control, but the ball is in their court, either they embrace the global community responsible for their own renaissance, or they watch as their pet failed nation is dismantled and the march of democracy advance to their doorsteps....

    IDK, I guess I am sick of the game playing with NK. **** or get off the pot already!
    Indeed, China is in a very precarious position and reports are that they're currently reassessing the nature of their relationship. Especially in light of little man's ailing health and lack of an heir-apparent, my guess is they are planning how to forge ties with the more prominent party members in preparation for a collective style government. There are technically two other members of the executive branch, the Premier and the president of parliament, but neither holds enough power to fill Kim's very tiny shoes. Once Dear Leader kicks it, China will be the only country in any position to influence the party apparatus. They know that and will do whatever it takes to retain stability in the country--that means no change with regard to nuclear weapons. In my opinion, the upside is that the country will probably be too tied up with internal struggles to be as belligerent as they have in the past. They will also be even more a Chinese puppet state. That can be an upside or downside, depending on how you look at it. Either way, Kim's death will, unfortunately, be the best hope for any positive change.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by RPFTW View Post
    i watched that vid, interesting concept. One place I read, hmm the hub, i think, suggested a lot of changes, up to and including erasing the U.S. Canada border, building a Berlin type wall on your southern end locking out Mexico. The question i have is this, If the U.S. went non inverventionist, pullled all the troops home, only interested in doing business to make a profit, nothing more. The armed forces were strictly used as defense of the Homeland,
    What makes you think, the rest of the world would trade with you?, really think about this one, most of the products that are "american" are made overseas, perhaps assembled in the states, but the parts are produced in other countries. What makes you think, the production and assembly could equal cost of say China.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  15. #35  
    We could threaten to give them all a Palm Pre, they'll surely throw their hands up and surrender then.
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  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Nobody's going to nuke anyone. To me, NK is China's crazy pet pit bull. Publicly, they can't control him, but if you come meaning to do the little guy any harm you'll have to answer to his handlers. There are two reasons for this: 1) NK can do things China would like to but can't; and 2) if NK can't control it's borders, and the population within them, China has an enormous problem. Ultimately, anything that's done about NK will have to be done with the cooperation, or at least tacit approval of China. That rules out most overt military actions.
    I agree with the analogy of crazy lil pitbull, however, The rest of the world needs to let china deal with them. As I said, cut them off of everything, no declerations, nothing, just cut them off. How long before NK's starving people go nuts on him, or how long before he attacks. Either way, its China's problem. Time for what is argueably considered the oldest civililzation to get its collective head out of the sand and step up to the plate. If they want to be a super power, act like it.
    Hell, Canada is no super power, but has done far more then China and Russia/Soviet Union combined on the world stage.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  17. groovy's Avatar
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    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    I agree with the analogy of crazy lil pitbull, however, The rest of the world needs to let china deal with them. As I said, cut them off of everything, no declerations, nothing, just cut them off. How long before NK's starving people go nuts on him, or how long before he attacks.
    The problem with that is that NK is already one of the most heavily sanctioned countries in history. And despite the starvation that's already rampant, there's still a very strong sense of nationlism and, by most accounts, a general admiration of the Dear Leader. I think he's done a great job of stirring up a national persecution complex. And, since something like a quarter of the adult population is either in the military or employed in the defense industry, a national uprising will have to begin there first. The problem with that is that those people get fed the best.

    Oh, also, since they get most of their support and trade with China, if you really want to "cut them off" stop shopping at Walmart!

    Either way, its China's problem. Time for what is argueably considered the oldest civililzation to get its collective head out of the sand and step up to the plate. If they want to be a super power, act like it.
    Hell, Canada is no super power, but has done far more then China and Russia/Soviet Union combined on the world stage.
    I think they're trying to deal with it. As I said, a crazy guy with nukes and 25 million hungry citizens along your border is a tricky situation. But, they did help to create the problem, they're helping to maintain the problem and they must be part of the solution.
  18. #38  
    China knows the north f'd up when they sunk that ship. The whole world knows. So dont expect china to side with the norths crazy shiznt. China like the USA just wants to quiet the situation without seeming like abandonment of an ali. We aren't going to war. There will be some kind of sanctions and china will just try to make it seem like they argued on the norths behalf to limit them. The north wont invade the south because they have no financial means to endure the long war that would result and a possible overthrow of their leadership. China would also not back them doing this. USA has to back the south but we will always discourage them from war unless the north makes it impossible to resist. The north know they wont win a war but they are crazy mofo's and seek to manipulate everyone by constant threats and shows of their craziness. They have equipment in striking range but its been there forever and nothings happened. We probably have double the equipment pointed at them. It will forever be an endless standoff.

    Neither side stands to benefit from a war in this situation so nobody will do it. The north stands to benefit from these displays of power because it joins the population behind its government. This prevents regime change. The south stands to benefit in the international community by showing restraint and gaining respect in the international community. Truth is the south is doing very well nowadays and by acting appropriately will gain more allies in this situation.
  19. bennish's Avatar
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by clintwinstead View Post
    We could threaten to give them all a Palm Pre, they'll surely throw their hands up and surrender then.
    Uncalled-for
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    The problem with that is that NK is already one of the most heavily sanctioned countries in history. And despite the starvation that's already rampant, there's still a very strong sense of nationlism and, by most accounts, a general admiration of the Dear Leader. I think he's done a great job of stirring up a national persecution complex. And, since something like a quarter of the adult population is either in the military or employed in the defense industry, a national uprising will have to begin there first. The problem with that is that those people get fed the best.

    Oh, also, since they get most of their support and trade with China, if you really want to "cut them off" stop shopping at Walmart!



    I think they're trying to deal with it. As I said, a crazy guy with nukes and 25 million hungry citizens along your border is a tricky situation. But, they did help to create the problem, they're helping to maintain the problem and they must be part of the solution.
    lol stop shopping at wally world ohhhh nooo lol i shop at canadian tire.. he may have nukes,, but no delivery mech that i know of... that is not to say he hasnt had one planted quietly in down town seoul though.. its possible.. bring it in piece by piece and reassemble...booommm
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
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