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  1. jewel's Avatar
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    #41  
    [QUOTE=mmcnamara43;2462991]
    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    And anyone living on this Earth is subject to God's law. As sure as all people will all die one day it's sure that we will all face God.[/QUOTE



    we will all face god? How on earth could you make that statement? I'm not to sure has anybody came back and told you they faced god? Was it the little book you read that someone wrote and you believe to be true? Don't make such statements.
    Have you ever heard of a historical figure named Jesus? It's an undisputed fact that he died and resurrected. If there is someone who has seen God it is him. And I can say that because I have read and studied it. Have you?

    And about that little book. Have you read it? Have you studied it? Have read both sides of the argument or are you content to just blindly believe all the criticisms about it? And where do you think this idea of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" come from? And where do you think all of these American laws are based from? Oh, I guess from that little book.

    Do your homework.
  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Admittedly, you are an exception with regard to support for gays....which is why I can't understand why you don't take more offense at these purveyors of hatred toward gays, who represent the majority of conservative thought.
    I do take offense at purveyors of hatred towards gays.... from both sides of the aisle. My problem with the left is mostly related to financial and the role of government in our lives, yet I align with them more often than you know.

    This is why I mentioned the brush. Not all conservative thought is the same. Not all people who have conservative 'thoughts' are racist homphobes. Just like the left, they diverge on different issues.

    Seriously, davidra.... if you allowed yourself to think about it openly and logically, I bet that even *you* would recognize that you had some conservative views on a couple of topics - maybe more than a couple.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Allow me to clarify your many misperceptions. I included Spitzer in my comments. Since I don't know whether or not his campaign efforts including concentrating on emphasizing how awful call girls were, and how they were a scourge to NY, I am not sure whether he would approach the level of hypocrisy seen by this dude. If someone chooses to have an extramarital affair, by and large they understand the consequences and they make the decision. That's their decision. I am aware of people that deal with this on a regular basis, and it is between them and their spouse. What I have a problem with is getting on a stump and claiming that he and his party represent "family values" while those scummy democrats are all heathens, all the while poling your staff. If you're trying to claim that this guy, and all these guys have a disease and their sexual meanderings are all explainable by some physiological condition, I suppose that's a possibility. If so they should stop criticizing people that have the same condition.

    If Rangel broke the law, he should be prosecuted. As best I can tell, he wasn't, but it sounded to me like he might not be an ideal person to chair that committee. But unless his campaign included a platform on prosecuting people who avoided paying taxes on overseas rental accounts, then it's not the same.

    I'm not saying those democrats aren't sketchy; far from it. But it is NOT the same. Lying to your constituents about your hatred for gays while trying to blow somebody in an airport restroom rises to quite a different level of hypocrisy. If you fail to see that, fine.
    Davidra, the funny thing about you is that if I, or anyone else, came in here and bashed gays as much as you bash Christians, you would be screaming that person was a horrible person. So why is it fine for you to constantly bash Christians? Not sure why this bothers me, but for some reason many people (and apparently especially you) seem to think that if a person calls themself a Christian and discusses the values that they believe in, that they therefore can't ever sin. For you to become a doctor, I'm going to assume you are a fairly intelligent person, but do you believe that a Christian can't sin? Is that your understanding of Christianity? I am by no means a Bible thumping individual, but even I know that one of the main guides of Christianity is that we all sin, but that we can ask for forgiveness.

    Now....if someone doesn't believe in God or Jesus, well, that is his or her decision and I guess I could understand why this would all seem ridiculous and maybe a little difficult to understand. But I think if you ask almost any Christian, they will admit they sin....again....it's called being human. And no, I don't believe having an affair is the result of a disease...at least...liberals haven't labelled that yet as a disease...but given time I'm sure some liberal will claim it is a disease.

    As for gays, I can't explain why some people seem to hate them as much as you seem to hate Christains. I have 2 neighbors that are gay, and they are actually two pretty good guys. They don't go out of their way to show they are gay, they don't make out down at the pool, but we all know they are gay and I don't know anyone that lives here that treats them any different from anyone else. But yet you seem to focus on the fringe people who do bash gay people. I just don't quite get you...other than the fact that you seem to believe that democrats do no wrong and Republicans are just rotten uncaring people. Again, you really seem to hate Republicans and yet you get on Republicans for hating other groups....now....this seems to be getting a little close to you being a hypocrite.
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  4. #44  
    [QUOTE=joshaccount;2463213]
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post

    Getting off topic...

    I think the issue for atheists and the rest of us agnostics is the declarative statement that we will ALL face god some day. I don't fault people for their faith, however baseless it may be. I fault people for using their faith to declare what will happen to me in my future. We correct 2nd graders for such ridiculous and absolutist claims about what will happen to other people, don't we? And to answer your question, no, it does not hurt or damage me if someone else wants to believe he or she will face their god. It is, however, a tired annoyance when that same person tells the rest of humanity what will certainly happen to them, irregardless of their own personal beliefs (or lack thereof).
    So....if I were to tell you that I believe that everyone would be lifted off the earth by an alien craft and whisked away, that would offend or annoy you? Why? In your mind it wouldn't be true, correct? So why let it bother you? I don't get that. Does it cost you any money by their beliefs? I could see if your tax dollars were maybe going to the building of church's that it could annoy you, but it really doesn't effect you that way, does it? Are you one of these people that is offended by a cross being placed on the side of the road for a loved one that has been killed in an accident? If so, why? If a Buddhist lost a child in a wreck, would it offend you if a Buddhist statue (assuming that is their "cross" symbol?) was placed on the side of the road? Would that offend you?

    We certainly have a right to believe in whatever we want to believe in....but until it starts to effect my wallet, I try not to let it bother me too much. That is why liberal ideas bother me so much because, while it is that person's right to believe in that idea, it also tends to hit my wallet.
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  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    So....if I were to tell you that I believe that everyone would be lifted off the earth by an alien craft and whisked away, that would offend or annoy you? Why? In your mind it wouldn't be true, correct? So why let it bother you? I don't get that. Does it cost you any money by their beliefs? I could see if your tax dollars were maybe going to the building of church's that it could annoy you, but it really doesn't effect you that way, does it? Are you one of these people that is offended by a cross being placed on the side of the road for a loved one that has been killed in an accident? If so, why? If a Buddhist lost a child in a wreck, would it offend you if a Buddhist statue (assuming that is their "cross" symbol?) was placed on the side of the road? Would that offend you?

    We certainly have a right to believe in whatever we want to believe in....but until it starts to effect my wallet, I try not to let it bother me too much. That is why liberal ideas bother me so much because, while it is that person's right to believe in that idea, it also tends to hit my wallet.
    Easy there, tiger (pun intended). I simply answered a question. Some commercials annoy me and I do my best to ignore them. Yet if someone were to ask me why that commercial annoyed me, i'd be happy to explain. To explain further, I'm annoyed (nothing more) by others projecting their beliefs on me or including me in their beliefs and then telling me all about it. That's all. To further one of your examples, a person placing a cross on the side of the road is not an annoyance to me at all. If that same person found out I lost a relative an put a cross in front of my house, that's a different story.

    Other people having faith seems like a great idea for them. But I'm not interested in what their faith tells them they need to tell me. I have my own beliefs (more like rational thoughts) and I'm sure you are fine with that. However, some people might become annoyed if I tell them what I think will ABSOLUTELY happen to them in their future whether they like it or not. Does this help clarify?

    Excellent point on liberal ideas affecting the wallet, like universal healthcare and social services for illegal aliens, I agree 100%. But recently conservatives seem to be no better, see the Iraq war and the untold billions spent.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Easy there, tiger (pun intended). I simply answered a question. Some commercials annoy me and I do my best to ignore them. Yet if someone were to ask me why that commercial annoyed me, i'd be happy to explain. To explain further, I'm annoyed (nothing more) by others projecting their beliefs on me or including me in their beliefs and then telling me all about it. That's all. To further one of your examples, a person placing a cross on the side of the road is not an annoyance to me at all. If that same person found out I lost a relative an put a cross in front of my house, that's a different story.

    Other people having faith seems like a great idea for them. But I'm not interested in what their faith tells them they need to tell me. I have my own beliefs (more like rational thoughts) and I'm sure you are fine with that. However, some people might become annoyed if I tell them what I think will ABSOLUTELY happen to them in their future whether they like it or not. Does this help clarify?

    Excellent point on liberal ideas affecting the wallet, like universal healthcare and social services for illegal aliens, I agree 100%. But recently conservatives seem to be no better, see the Iraq war and the untold billions spent.
    Enjoyed the pun! Thanks! I think I see where you are coming from, and certainly would agree that no one should have the right to put a religious sign (or any sign) on your own property....no arguement there! I don't even like people putting up political signs in my yard...well...back when I had a yard. It seems like, however, that someone saying they have a belief is far different from demonstrating it by forcing their belief on you. I don't agree, for example, with certain beliefs that Catholics and Jews believe in, but I don't let that annoy me. After all, that is their belief of the religion that they chose. Now, if I was being told that I had to start participating in those beliefs or practices, now we have a problem. But if you don't believe in God, or any higher power, that's cool with me. If I happen to be right (faith here), well, I might end up being better off (note I said, "might", who the heck knows for sure). If you happen to be right (no higher power to report to at the end of the line), well, no one is really hurt either way, right? We'll just slowly fade out, I guess, as our brain activity stops working?

    I think we are in basic agreement....kind of....but I do appreciate the "conversation" without you telling me I was wrong like one particular person in here (who shall go nameless, but I think we know who that person is) loves to do to anyone that thinks differently from him (oops, it's a guy...I didn't say doctor though....oops again).
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  7.    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Enjoyed the pun! Thanks! I think I see where you are coming from, and certainly would agree that no one should have the right to put a religious sign (or any sign) on your own property....no arguement there! I don't even like people putting up political signs in my yard...well...back when I had a yard. It seems like, however, that someone saying they have a belief is far different from demonstrating it by forcing their belief on you. I don't agree, for example, with certain beliefs that Catholics and Jews believe in, but I don't let that annoy me. After all, that is their belief of the religion that they chose. Now, if I was being told that I had to start participating in those beliefs or practices, now we have a problem. But if you don't believe in God, or any higher power, that's cool with me. If I happen to be right (faith here), well, I might end up being better off (note I said, "might", who the heck knows for sure). If you happen to be right (no higher power to report to at the end of the line), well, no one is really hurt either way, right? We'll just slowly fade out, I guess, as our brain activity stops working?

    I think we are in basic agreement....kind of....but I do appreciate the "conversation" without you telling me I was wrong like one particular person in here (who shall go nameless, but I think we know who that person is) loves to do to anyone that thinks differently from him (oops, it's a guy...I didn't say doctor though....oops again).
    See, I only tell you you're wrong when you're actually wrong. You should expect that by now. It's just unfortunate that you're wrong so frequently.

    While this is totally off-topic with regard to right wing hypocrisy, when someone tells me with certainty that I will "face God one day", I figure it's none of their business to tell me that, any more than if someone made me listen to Jehovah's Witnesses when they show up at my door. If you want to fill your life with magical thinking, believe in resurrection or the tooth fairy or Santa Claus, hey, go for it. Just please don't project your beliefs onto me. I will determine what I believe.
  8. #48  
    I think I like where this is going. The right wing nut job talk bores me.
  9.    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Davidra, the funny thing about you is that if I, or anyone else, came in here and bashed gays as much as you bash Christians, you would be screaming that person was a horrible person. So why is it fine for you to constantly bash Christians? Not sure why this bothers me, but for some reason many people (and apparently especially you) seem to think that if a person calls themself a Christian and discusses the values that they believe in, that they therefore can't ever sin. For you to become a doctor, I'm going to assume you are a fairly intelligent person, but do you believe that a Christian can't sin? Is that your understanding of Christianity? I am by no means a Bible thumping individual, but even I know that one of the main guides of Christianity is that we all sin, but that we can ask for forgiveness.

    Now....if someone doesn't believe in God or Jesus, well, that is his or her decision and I guess I could understand why this would all seem ridiculous and maybe a little difficult to understand. But I think if you ask almost any Christian, they will admit they sin....again....it's called being human. And no, I don't believe having an affair is the result of a disease...at least...liberals haven't labelled that yet as a disease...but given time I'm sure some liberal will claim it is a disease.

    As for gays, I can't explain why some people seem to hate them as much as you seem to hate Christains. I have 2 neighbors that are gay, and they are actually two pretty good guys. They don't go out of their way to show they are gay, they don't make out down at the pool, but we all know they are gay and I don't know anyone that lives here that treats them any different from anyone else. But yet you seem to focus on the fringe people who do bash gay people. I just don't quite get you...other than the fact that you seem to believe that democrats do no wrong and Republicans are just rotten uncaring people. Again, you really seem to hate Republicans and yet you get on Republicans for hating other groups....now....this seems to be getting a little close to you being a hypocrite.
    I don't hate Christians. I'm married to one. I don't bash Christians for being Christians, any more than I have a problem with Muslims being Muslim. What I do hate are Christians who use their religion to belittle others, to foster ideas that are not germane to Christianity, and who use their religion as an excuse for their hatred for people who disagree with them. There are lots of Christians who don't do that, maybe even most of them. But saying it's only the fringe that attack gay people? Bull. The political wing of the religious right is who I dislike, and I have no problem expressing it either. The holier-than-thou attitude expressed by the yahoos that live at C Street in Washington, all the conservative republicans and democrats that have their prayer breakfasts between having affairs...those people I dislike. Now unless you want to stand up for them, why don't you take a stand about them as well? By and large I don't participate in religious threads because I just don't see any sense in it. Nobody can argue logically with "faith". That's the beauty and the frustration of dealing with "true believers". Just not interested, actually. And this was not a religious thread.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    See, I only tell you you're wrong when you're actually wrong. You should expect that by now. It's just unfortunate that you're wrong so frequently.

    While this is totally off-topic with regard to right wing hypocrisy, when someone tells me with certainty that I will "face God one day", I figure it's none of their business to tell me that, any more than if someone made me listen to Jehovah's Witnesses when they show up at my door. If you want to fill your life with magical thinking, believe in resurrection or the tooth fairy or Santa Claus, hey, go for it. Just please don't project your beliefs onto me. I will determine what I believe.
    Listen doc, and you should know this by now to, you suffer from a common malady that many doctors suffer from, and that is not believing they are ever wrong....it's pretty common....you have a problem with God because you kind of think you are a god....many doctors do....so....I've gotten somewhat used to that. You simply believe you are never wrong....everyone in here knows that....and just one of those things that ya gotta deal with if you read your posts. But you wouldn't be davidra if it was any other way.

    Your reasoning that it is "none of their business to tell me that" is just a little wacky. You may not have to listen to someone say that....you can close a door....you can walk away....you can shoot them the bird.....but I think in this country unless someone is intruding on your property a person can say whatever the heck they want to say (unless, of course, it is causing someone harm....are you harmed by this? LOL)....now....whether you want to listen is a whole other story. God bless you. Oops...sorry, hope that didn't offend you.
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  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I don't hate Christians. I'm married to one. I don't bash Christians for being Christians, any more than I have a problem with Muslims being Muslim. What I do hate are Christians who use their religion to belittle others, to foster ideas that are not germane to Christianity, and who use their religion as an excuse for their hatred for people who disagree with them. There are lots of Christians who don't do that, maybe even most of them. But saying it's only the fringe that attack gay people? Bull. The political wing of the religious right is who I dislike, and I have no problem expressing it either. The holier-than-thou attitude expressed by the yahoos that live at C Street in Washington, all the conservative republicans and democrats that have their prayer breakfasts between having affairs...those people I dislike. Now unless you want to stand up for them, why don't you take a stand about them as well? By and large I don't participate in religious threads because I just don't see any sense in it. Nobody can argue logically with "faith". That's the beauty and the frustration of dealing with "true believers". Just not interested, actually. And this was not a religious thread.
    I will give you a for at least including democrats in your comment above....now....I'll look forward to you starting a topic regarding a hypocritical democrat (don't worry, not holding my breath).
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  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    Have you ever heard of a historical figure named Jesus? It's an undisputed fact that he died and resurrected.
    It's only undisputed if you ignore the 2/3 of the world that aren't Christians.
    Last edited by Bujin; 05/20/2010 at 07:55 PM.
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  13. #53  
    I love this thread!
  14. fubka's Avatar
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    #54  
    got to love republican family values
  15. #55  
    Go's right along with Democrat Transparency.
  16.    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Listen doc, and you should know this by now to, you suffer from a common malady that many doctors suffer from, and that is not believing they are ever wrong....it's pretty common....you have a problem with God because you kind of think you are a god....many doctors do....so....I've gotten somewhat used to that. You simply believe you are never wrong....everyone in here knows that....and just one of those things that ya gotta deal with if you read your posts. But you wouldn't be davidra if it was any other way.

    Actually, you're wrong again.

    There are very few things about which I am confidently correct, and all of those have to do with what I've been doing and been trained in for a long long time. And I provide facts and figures to bolster my opinions. In that sphere, I also take stands which most people would say are against my own interest, right? Everything else is opinion, by and large, including this thread, which is nothing but an observation and opinions. I know nothing about deep water oil drilling, or other smart phones, or constitutional law. Outside of health care and policy, most of the time when I say you're wrong, it's because you have made assumptions about me or what I think...like above. Now with regard to religion, as I said, I tend to avoid it. Frances Collins, who is now the head of the NIH but is probably one of most well-known doctors on earth because he decoded the human genome, has written two books about his faith as a physician. When I was a fellow, Frances was a resident at UNC and I worked with him and had a number of conversations with him about his religion, years before anyone knew who he was. Even with his advanced knowledge of science, he was willing to believe something on faith and faith alone. Essentially he was developing a philosophy that most would today call intelligent design. He didn't take the bible literally at all, he just couldn't fathom that life could develop spontaneously, as complex as it is. Simply, I disagree. I favor evidence, as do most scientists, before accepting anything as truth. That's true in medicine and as far as I'm concerned, it's true in all interactions between humans and their environment. Now this is so off-topic, that I've lost track of all the republican hypocrisy, but I'm sure if I wait a few minutes, something else will appear.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Actually, you're wrong again.

    There are very few things about which I am confidently correct, and all of those have to do with what I've been doing and been trained in for a long long time. And I provide facts and figures to bolster my opinions. In that sphere, I also take stands which most people would say are against my own interest, right? Everything else is opinion, by and large, including this thread, which is nothing but an observation and opinions. I know nothing about deep water oil drilling, or other smart phones, or constitutional law. Outside of health care and policy, most of the time when I say you're wrong, it's because you have made assumptions about me or what I think...like above. Now with regard to religion, as I said, I tend to avoid it. Frances Collins, who is now the head of the NIH but is probably one of most well-known doctors on earth because he decoded the human genome, has written two books about his faith as a physician. When I was a fellow, Frances was a resident at UNC and I worked with him and had a number of conversations with him about his religion, years before anyone knew who he was. Even with his advanced knowledge of science, he was willing to believe something on faith and faith alone. Essentially he was developing a philosophy that most would today call intelligent design. He didn't take the bible literally at all, he just couldn't fathom that life could develop spontaneously, as complex as it is. Simply, I disagree. I favor evidence, as do most scientists, before accepting anything as truth. That's true in medicine and as far as I'm concerned, it's true in all interactions between humans and their environment. Now this is so off-topic, that I've lost track of all the republican hypocrisy, but I'm sure if I wait a few minutes, something else will appear.
    Do you believe there is other intelligent life in the Universe? Based on your comments above, I would say you would have to say no because I'm not aware of there being any proof or evidence that other intelligent life exists, correct? You did say you must have evidence of something before accepting anything in truth, so therefore, you would have to say there is no other life in the Universe. I, however, have faith that other life does exist in this vast Universe...and yet....I can't prove it. I think other scientists would also agree that other life exists, and yet, it can't be proven....interesting.

    With that said, I also don't take everything in the Bible as literal either, especially in the Old Testament. Stories can get twisted as they are past down over the years and sometimes folks come up with stories to explain things. There are probably hints of truth to many of the stories, but also my guess is things were slightly exagerrated. That is just my opinion. The Old Testament....another story.....especially if one is a Christian. I won't go into that since this is already way off topic.

    I do appreciate you keeping your record intact and saying I was wrong in yet another post. If you didn't say it at least once in a post directed at me, I would think something was wrong with you or that you had fallen off your pedestal
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  18.    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Do you believe there is other intelligent life in the Universe? Based on your comments above, I would say you would have to say no because I'm not aware of there being any proof or evidence that other intelligent life exists, correct? You did say you must have evidence of something before accepting anything in truth, so therefore, you would have to say there is no other life in the Universe. I, however, have faith that other life does exist in this vast Universe...and yet....I can't prove it. I think other scientists would also agree that other life exists, and yet, it can't be proven....interesting.

    With that said, I also don't take everything in the Bible as literal either, especially in the Old Testament. Stories can get twisted as they are past down over the years and sometimes folks come up with stories to explain things. There are probably hints of truth to many of the stories, but also my guess is things were slightly exagerrated. That is just my opinion. The Old Testament....another story.....especially if one is a Christian. I won't go into that since this is already way off topic.

    I do appreciate you keeping your record intact and saying I was wrong in yet another post. If you didn't say it at least once in a post directed at me, I would think something was wrong with you or that you had fallen off your pedestal
    I do aim for consistency....

    I have no evidence that there is life on other planets, therefore I do not believe there is. When I have evidence that convinces me, then I will believe it. If, on the other hand, you are asking about the probability that life exists on other planets, that's a different question. It's one of the issues about applying grouped data to patient care. I can tell a patient that they have a 10% risk of developing heart disease over the next ten years....but of course their real risk is either 0% or 100%. No matter how high their risk (probability) is, I wouldn't say they had it until I knew they did. If you asked me what I think the probability is that there is a god, I would refer you to a very wise man, George Carlin:

    Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man…living in the sky, who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer and burn and scream until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you and he needs money.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I do aim for consistency....

    I have no evidence that there is life on other planets, therefore I do not believe there is. When I have evidence that convinces me, then I will believe it. If, on the other hand, you are asking about the probability that life exists on other planets, that's a different question. It's one of the issues about applying grouped data to patient care. I can tell a patient that they have a 10% risk of developing heart disease over the next ten years....but of course their real risk is either 0% or 100%. No matter how high their risk (probability) is, I wouldn't say they had it until I knew they did. If you asked me what I think the probability is that there is a god, I would refer you to a very wise man, George Carlin:
    Well shoot.....you just broke your record.....are you just feeling good because it's Friday afternoon? What gives...oh....and for the record I was correct in that you don't believe there is life out there in the Universe

    As for good ole George.....I guess he knows now if there is or isn't a God. I wonder if George discovered the joke was on him? And for the record, I did find George funny on many subjects....
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  20. #60  
    I really don't want it to go back to topic. I am enjoying this rather intelligent, and very mature debate on religion, politics, and other things. This is the first thread that touched on some of these topics without some ***** ruining it. Thank you guys for the entertainment, educated opinions, and I hope others will take note in this discussion.

    - JohnnyPre

    (note: When Science 'thinks' life is out there, that would be a theory, right? so when religion 'thinks' about believing, is faith their word for theory?) jus sayn... (ducks from objects thrown at him)
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