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  1. #81  
    Ditto what the Lady said....

    You can also remember that while all the apostles and Paul wrote accounts of what they saw, they were remarkably clear on what they heard Jesus say. They all had a very hard time living by those words and often wrote about their trials while they struggled to live by his will. But through it all they were bouyed by the Spirit of Christ and by his Word, never attempting to gain credit themselves for what they accomplished, but always attributing it to his glory.

    You should also remember that none of the apostles, nor Paul could be construed as "white" as they were all from the area we call the Middle East now, which is part of Asia. "White" people were from Europe, or Scandanavian in origin. They, like Jesus, were middle eastern jews.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  2. #82  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    You can also remember that while all the apostles and Paul wrote accounts of what they saw, they were remarkably clear on what they heard Jesus say. They all had a very hard time living by those words and often wrote about their trials while they struggled to live by his will. But through it all they were bouyed by the Spirit of Christ and by his Word, never attempting to gain credit themselves for what they accomplished, but always attributing it to his glory.
    Only trouble is that they are still human witnesses, for all we know they could have been on LSD (or the equivalent of that at that time)..
    Besides that a lot of the things written in the bible should be taken in the context of the society of BC middle east. Yet still people take it litterally and put it in modern society..
    Thirdly the bible is a translation (of a translation of a translation etc) very little people nowadays speak the same language a the bible was written in... a lot of context could have been lost that way...
    As you may have figured out I do not believe in (blindly) following a book that was written 2000+ years ago in a totally different region in telling me how to live my life...

    I do believe in most of the basics in the bible like not killing, not stealing, not lying. But find religion to be too narrowminded...
    Also I don't need a superbeing to tell me how to live my life properly...
    I believe 'gods' are created by man to explain the unexplainable...Mankind has the tendancy to need to know why and how things work, a god is a nice catch all for all things we cannot explain yet..
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  3. #83  
    "Only trouble is that they are still human witnesses, for all we know they could have been on LSD (or the equivalent of that at that time).."

    My point was exactly that they were human, wrote their accounts separately and at different times and still wrote amazingly cohesive accounts. And their accounts jibe with other (non-Bible) historical accounts. (That's a cheap out BTW)

    "Besides that a lot of the things written in the bible should be taken in the context of the society of BC middle east. Yet still people take it litterally and put it in modern society.."

    If you're referring to the Old Testament stuff (restrictions on eating, etc.) I understand and agree. The New Testament is all about living a Christ-like life which is applicable to anyone, anywhere, anytime.

    "Thirdly the bible is a translation (of a translation of a translation etc) very little people nowadays speak the same language a the bible was written in... a lot of context could have been lost that way..."

    Actually there are several good current translations, lexical dictionaries and concordances where you can look up the original written word and the actual use of that word when it was originally written. If you are serious about reading the Word, it is imperative to address exactly that in order to understand what was being said.

    "As you may have figured out I do not believe in (blindly) following a book that was written 2000+ years ago in a totally different region in telling me how to live my life..."

    Your choice. Everybody believes something. Everyone needs some kind of compass. I believe that Jesus came for everybody, everywhere and his teachings are still highly relevant today for everyone. The teachings of Jesus transcend the time and region he was living in because they address how we treat each other and how we deal with God. Think about this though, If every nation applied Christ's Word to how they treated other nations we would not only have no war and fewer misunderstandings, we would also have nations with more freely giving to nations that have less.


    "I do believe in most of the basics in the bible like not killing, not stealing, not lying. But find religion to be too narrowminded..."

    Then you actually are in agreement with Jesus!

    "Also I don't need a superbeing to tell me how to live my life properly..."

    Just society and culture? I know you weren't born with an innate sense of right and wrong. Every gets guidance from somewhere.

    "I believe 'gods' are created by man to explain the unexplainable...Mankind has the tendancy to need to know why and how things work, a god is a nice catch all for all things we cannot explain yet.."

    I can't help you there. Man has a long history of Hubris and it has led to some pretty destructive practices - on all sides- lest you think I'm bashing non-christians I'll remind you that many so called christians have ignored Jesus's Word to love everyone and have killed or mistreated people who were different (black, gay, female, etc.) because they felt that they were better serving God, even though it's written pretty clearly in the Bible they claim to love that we are all equal in the eyes of God.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  4. #84  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    [...] I know you weren't born with an innate sense of right and wrong. [...]
    I'm not totally convinced that this is universally true. There are definitely some things that I consider 'wrong' for which I can find no societal (or even familial) influences. AAMOF, some are contrary to popular societal views.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5. #85  
    "I'm not totally convinced that this is universally true. There are definitely some things that I consider 'wrong' for which I can find no societal (or even familial) influences. AAMOF, some are contrary to popular societal views."

    I can see how you would say that, but do you have the distance from yourself to be able to accurately judge that? I would think that you would have to possess an eiditic(sic) memory to be sure that you hadn't missed an influence (positive or negative) on you life, esp. when you were younger. I personally know that I was very influenced more by what I read than what I saw around me when I was a youth. Of course I was reading Louis L'amour, Burroughs (Edger Rice, not William) and Heinlein when I was in 3rd grade so that does seem to explain me, at least to me .

    Nature Vs. Nuture?
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  6. #86  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    I can see how you would say that, but do you have the distance from yourself to be able to accurately judge that?
    I'm one of the most distant SOBs you'll ever meet.
    I would think that you would have to possess an eiditic(sic) memory to be sure that you hadn't missed an influence (positive or negative) on you life, esp. when you were younger. I personally know that I was very influenced more by what I read than what I saw around me when I was a youth. Of course I was reading Louis L'amour, Burroughs (Edger Rice, not William) and Heinlein when I was in 3rd grade so that does seem to explain me, at least to me .

    Nature Vs. Nuture?
    Interestingly enough, I'm reading a book right now that claims that knowledge of right and wrong _are_ inherent in man according to the Bible. Back to the point, though, I'm not sure that one can consider literary agreements as being influential when everything else in society pushes one away from those ideals. IOW, if one identifies with something in a book, and yet society tells one that they should behave in the polar opposite manner, then it's rather difficult to just write off society as the sole source of 'right and wrong'.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #87  
    " Back to the point, though, I'm not sure that one can consider literary agreements as being influential when everything else in society pushes one away from those ideals. "

    Well, I grew up in a neighborhood where it was considered OK to steal and where it was considered normal to lie. I grew to consider that to be abnormal after comparing it to the ideals I saw attributed to the protagonists those writers portrayed in their novels. Given a choice of ideals to follow I chose to follow John Carson, et al.

    I guess I'm thinking of societies where it's considered moral to kill and eat your enemies to ours, or a culture where it's considered "right" to ritually rape a young teenaged girl to satisfy anothers family "honor" because her younger brother was found walking about in broad daylight with a young, unchaperoned girl from the before-mentioned family.

    As to your earlier statement,
    " some are contrary to popular societal views."
    does that negate the possibility that you were still affected by societal views?
    Perhaps you weren't born with an innate sense of right and wrong, but with an innate sense of contrariness.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  8. #88  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    Well, I grew up in a neighborhood where it was considered OK to steal and where it was considered normal to lie. I grew to consider that to be abnormal after comparing it to the ideals I saw attributed to the protagonists those writers portrayed in their novels. Given a choice of ideals to follow I chose to follow John Carson, et al.
    Did something just seem 'righter' about it? Why would you think that is, if you hadn't known 'better' through direct experience? After all, those were works of fiction.
    I guess I'm thinking of societies where it's considered moral to kill and eat your enemies to ours, or a culture where it's considered "right" to ritually rape a young teenaged girl to satisfy anothers family "honor" because her younger brother was found walking about in broad daylight with a young, unchaperoned girl from the before-mentioned family.
    *shrug* I'm as anti-moral-absolutist as anyone, but I still think there are some basic objective morals from a biological perspective.
    As to your earlier statement,
    " some are contrary to popular societal views."
    does that negate the possibility that you were still affected by societal views?
    Perhaps you weren't born with an innate sense of right and wrong, but with an innate sense of contrariness.
    No, I acquired my sense of contrariness later in life. As a youngster, I really wanted to be able to fit in. I just couldn't bring myself to compromise my internal 'right and wrong' to do it. I could cite examples, but I'm sure that sounds arrogant enough already to one inclined to see it that way (not you, but I'm weary of getting those comments elsewhere at the moment).
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. #89  
    "No, I acquired my sense of contrariness later in life. As a youngster, I really wanted to be able to fit in. I just couldn't bring myself to compromise my internal 'right and wrong' to do it. I could cite examples, but I'm sure that sounds arrogant enough already to one inclined to see it that way (not you, but I'm weary of getting those comments elsewhere at the moment)."

    We seem to be opposites in that regard. I was definately born in a contrary mode and have just recently seen a shift in that. As to people possibly perceiving you as arrogant (or possessing such attributes), just remember what I tell myself when I find myself in such a position,

    "The poor shmoo just doesn't know any better."

    You usually get a good response if you pat the person on the head and say "There, there" after they accuse you....
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  10. #90  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike


    "The poor shmoo just doesn't know any better."
    Dude. I wouldn't even give them the pleasure of calling them a shmoo. To paraphrase Thorin; "Shmoos are people too. Stop the hate!"

    I'm the opposite. I was very "accomodating" growing up and would do anything for anyone that didn't involve self-mutilation, violence, or general law-breaking.

    Nowadays, I'm more apt to tell someone (politely, of course) that I disagree or that they can find another patsy to do their dirty work. (Of course, I'm whoring myself for my work and always seem to end up doing more than the project plan calls for but that's because they pay me relatively well (although why I'm still driving a Saturn and not the BMW is beyond me)).

    I can't chalk it up to just being older because I know plenty of people who are still waaay too accomodating (my buddy who is getting married this weekend bends on his knees for his mom and his mother in law. Pitiful).

    Instead, its the realization that if I want to be the best husband, father, and individual I know how to be, I need to devote time and energy to myself.
  11. #91  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    We seem to be opposites in that regard. I was definately born in a contrary mode and have just recently seen a shift in that.
    Definitely opposite, although I'm rarely contrary just to be contrary (seriously anyway).
    As to people possibly perceiving you as arrogant (or possessing such attributes), just remember what I tell myself when I find myself in such a position,

    "The poor shmoo just doesn't know any better."

    You usually get a good response if you pat the person on the head and say "There, there" after they accuse you....
    If those were done seriously, though, they _would_ be arrogant.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12. #92  
    heh, heh
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  13. #93  
    Evidently, I am missing out on a good thread...
  14. #94  
    "Evidently, I am missing out on a good thread..."

    I see it, it's hanging off the collar of your shirt. Don't pull it, that'll only make it worse! Use some nail clippers....

    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  15. #95  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    "Evidently, I am missing out on a good thread..."
    I see it, it's hanging off the collar of your shirt. Don't pull it, that'll only make it worse! Use some nail clippers....
    Actually, I am suffering from the most irritating thread that are catching from my sleeve onto a bracelet I am wearing today...does that make me a shmoo??
  16. #96  
    "Actually, I am suffering from the most irritating thread that are catching from my sleeve onto a bracelet I am wearing today...does that make me a shmoo??"

    You are not a shmoo. You are the opposite of shmoo. You contain no shmooness. You are the Anti-Shmoo. You husband is too nice of a guy to marry a shmoo.
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  17. #97  
    well, not to confuse this with Smee, who was Captain Hook's First Mate, wasn't there some cartoon character named Shmoo?
  18. #98  
    Yes. It was a white blobbish thing with feet and a moustache. Created by Al Capp, it appeared in the Li'l Abner strip for a time, had its own strip, and even appeared on a Saturday morning Flintstones carton series in the early 1980's where Fred and Barney worked as police officers alongside the Shmoo.

    http://www.lil-abner.com/shmoo.html
    The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.
  19. #99  
    Originally posted by Yorick
    Yes. It was a white blobbish thing with feet and a moustache. and even appeared on a Saturday morning Flintstones carton series in the early 1980's where Fred and Barney worked as police officers alongside the Shmoo.[/url]
    That's it! That's it!! Thanks!
  20. #100  
    "Yes. It was a white blobbish thing with feet and a moustache. Created by Al Capp, it appeared in the Li'l Abner strip for a time, had its own strip, and even appeared on a Saturday morning Flintstones carton series in the early 1980's where Fred and Barney worked as police officers alongside the Shmoo."

    Yes, you are correct! What were they (in)famous for (in the Lil' Abner strip)?

    Hint: ("Yum, tastes just like chick'n!")
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
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