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  1. fubka's Avatar
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    #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    The scriptual account does not require two of each species, it says "kinds". Some have estimated as few as 50 "kinds" of mammals, for example, could then produce today's variety. (For example, only one type of "dog" becomes all canine varieties)
    What is a "kind?"

    So 50 different "kinds" populated the full world in how many years?
  2. fubka's Avatar
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    #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    um... Actually, the flood would give all cultures a common ancestor, so they would from that draw the common story.
    How long ago was this creationists flood?
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    #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    The penguins ability to adapt and survive is amazing, but their existence is truly sad. I recommend you rent march of the penguins and tell me how wondrous their time on this earth really is.
    Again, its not what they want to do, its if they are able to reproduce, the lineage will continue, they are well adapted for life in their environment
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    #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    So, is it a realistic argument to say that everyone in these cultures spanning from Asia to antartica down to Mexico and over to Australia all have obtained their physical features, develop their own languages and cultures through evolution in less then a thousand years after the flood?
    Which also makes me ask, why would new languages develop if the only human survivors all spoke the same language? There would be no need for other languages to surface if there was already an established one...
    This is what a YEC (Young Earth Creationists) believe. "Super Evolution" and "Kinds" It is the only way to explain the incredible diversity of species on earth in the few thousands of years after the flood myth. I guess this Noah character went around and got all the bacterial kinds too, parasitic worms, plasmodium, diatomes, even went over to South America, New Zealand, and Australia to load up all their "Kinds" too. His offspring had so many more mutations too that we set off all of the diversity in the H. Sapiens we see today.
    Why do people laugh at creationists?
  5.    #165  
    Ok, i'm on the PC now for the first time since i opened this thread...

    To switch gears, just slightly, I would like to know how the "people with faith" would try to explain the start of mankind to somebody who doesn't believe anything that is written in the bible.

    You guys have done a real good job of responding to my OP, it's just that with all the twists and turns that this thread has taken, i am left wondering how this should/would/could be explained to somebody that doesn't have the faith that you guys have.

    Am i taking this in a completely different direction, or does it fall in line with my original query? Or: do you guys think that you've answered this question before i even presented it?
  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    Agreed; not all is literal. Much is, however. It isn't really all that difficult to differentiate, when you read the Bible completely and let it interpret itself. E.g.- 7 headed beast in Revelation: symbolic. Flood- (filled with names, dates, geography) literal. If it never happened, Jesus' and Peter's ref to it as type for future judgement would be sort of silly.
    So everything that seems unrealistic we can write off as figurative and all morals as literal?
    A flood that rose above all mountains (figurative but a big flood occured)
    A flood killing every flesh living being (figurative)
    A man living six hundred years (figurative?) (how come we dont live longer if we share his genes? oh its figurative)
    So a man building an ark for a hundred years with little help, and people still believe he is a fraud (figurative)
    So someone mentioned that since Jesus mentioned Noahs Ark he is a liar?
    Maybe, if this great flood is figurative maybe he doesnt lie maybe he was just being figurative with everything?
    Is someone that claims they spoke to God being figurative as well... really no way to tell...

    Quote Originally Posted by Typo Lad View Post
    Well, you know we differ on that. Considering the Battle at Megido already happened and all, and was about the Fall of the Kings of Israel. At least, from where I'm sitting.

    But that's what's great! Free will! We're free to interpret! Sure there are wrong answers, but we have know way of knowing. Study, see what has resonance, and try not to be a jerk along the way. That's what I say.
    I am not trying to be a jerk even though my questionng may sound as such. You must be able to understand my point of view when the bible (im sure other biblical writings, as well) were taken as completely literal, and as time and science progressed (amongst language and traslations) now biblical scriptures are figurative as well, without any indication in their original texts. And now creationist are laughed upon because they take the bible literally as was hundreds of years ago. My time changes soo much....
    Not trying to be a jerk... just trying to be rational
    Last edited by gsonspre; 05/11/2010 at 07:09 PM.
  7. #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Ok, i'm on the PC now for the first time since i opened this thread...

    To switch gears, just slightly, I would like to know how the "people with faith" would try to explain the start of mankind to somebody who doesn't believe anything that is written in the bible.

    You guys have done a real good job of responding to my OP, it's just that with all the twists and turns that this thread has taken, i am left wondering how this should/would/could be explained to somebody that doesn't have the faith that you guys have.

    Am i taking this in a completely different direction, or does it fall in line with my original query? Or: do you guys think that you've answered this question before i even presented it?
    Thats the beauty of religion and free will, any question can keep in line with your OP

    like why did the dinosaurs die? was it God Giving humans more room to build houses, bc it was getting too hot/cold, bc if dinosaurs were alive they surely trample our huts! (No one answer that please! ) see how that works!
  8. #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by fubka View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    So, let me get this right: Mahatma Gandhi, one of history's greatest peacemakers, is going to hell because he wasn't a Christian?

    Dude, that is some screwed up thinking.
    screwed up thinking is believing in magical bush, talking snakes, and zombies
    Actually... Mahatma Gandhi was influenced by "The Anointed One", known as Christ Jesus, all thru the work of Leo Tolstoy's What I Believe. Leo Tolstoy essentially created the concept of the Christian Anarchist after realizing Jesus' true message from the Sermon on the Mount. Just find a copy of that book (it's free in every sense of the word) and read some reviews... you'll get the gist of it.

    It's actually interesting when you realize how everything has been influenced by the God-Man Christ Jesus. To say that he's not the Anointed One is a bit silly to me, when you actually see the effect of his life & death. Knowing that he "effected" Gandhi's path to discovering "non-resistance of evil" is quite the thought. Would anybody understand "non-resistance of evil" if it weren't for Christ Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    If I understand what you are saying, that all of these cultures are sharing stories of their ancestors. So the stories in each of these cultures are direct relatives of those in the Ark, as would all of us in terms of the bible.

    Am I correct so far? (I just want to make sure Im understanding your side)

    So, is it a realistic argument to say that everyone in these cultures spanning from Asia to antartica down to Mexico and over to Australia all have obtained their physical features, develop their own languages and cultures through evolution in less then a thousand years after the flood?
    Which also makes me ask, why would new languages develop if the only human survivors all spoke the same language? There would be no need for other languages to surface if there was already an established one...
    You do realize that all these languages HAVE been created, destroyed, re-created in only a few thousand years, right?? A quick Google puts Ancient Egypt at 3150 BC... + 2010 AD = 5160 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by fubka View Post
    How long ago was this creationists flood?
    YECs claim it to have been approximately 7,000 years ago. Maybe a bit more. Kent Hovind is the master of YECs. Somebody recommend I watch his stuff, and he actually does have a few good points. If nothing less, I feel like watching his lecture is a very, very good brain teaser.

    Quote Originally Posted by fubka View Post
    This is what a YEC (Young Earth Creationists) believe. "Super Evolution" and "Kinds" It is the only way to explain the incredible diversity of species on earth in the few thousands of years after the flood myth. I guess this Noah character went around and got all the bacterial kinds too, parasitic worms, plasmodium, diatomes, even went over to South America, New Zealand, and Australia to load up all their "Kinds" too. His offspring had so many more mutations too that we set off all of the diversity in the H. Sapiens we see today.
    Why do people laugh at creationists?
    They laugh because it's easier than actually understanding what is really going on in the world.

    As for your "Super Evolution" and "Kinds" comment... it actually does explain it. If you have a few "Kinds" of animals & pair them up on a large enough Ark... you would at least have enough species to replenish the earth in no time at all (at least not for humans, when you consider how many children married couples had in the Old Testament).

    I've never heard Hovind mention any "Super Evolution", but he certainly did have a few dozen radical ideas I had never heard before, and, actually sounded quite plausible. If by super evolution, you mean micro evolution in insects and other lifeforms with short lifespans... then I guess???

    Also... have you guys ever heard of the concept of epigenetics?? I still don't quite understand it, but it seems, more or less, to be evolution within the lifetime of any given species. Actual adaptation that takes place based on "The Force" between it and its surroundings. Charles Darwin actually commented about how he believed there was a "divine force" causing these creatures to change with their surroundings.

    Life is a very strange concept, and I don't think we have but a fraction of the answers. And, while I might think that YECs are partially crazy, I think they have more of the truth than some atheists.

    WHEW... this thread is intense.
  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    If I understand what you are saying, that all of these cultures are sharing stories of their ancestors. So the stories in each of these cultures are direct relatives of those in the Ark, as would all of us in terms of the bible.

    Am I correct so far? (I just want to make sure Im understanding your side)

    So, is it a realistic argument to say that everyone in these cultures spanning from Asia to antartica down to Mexico and over to Australia all have obtained their physical features, develop their own languages and cultures through evolution in less then a thousand years after the flood?
    Which also makes me ask, why would new languages develop if the only human survivors all spoke the same language? There would be no need for other languages to surface if there was already an established one...
    Where are you getting "less than a thousand years"?

    Plus, once you take the Biblical narrrative of the Flood, you have the Biblical narrative of the Tower of babel. That explains languages. Ibin Ezra teaches it's a metaphor for the fall of the first empire, and that it's dispersion led to shifts in languages, as we see now.

    Quote Originally Posted by fubka View Post
    What is a "kind?"

    So 50 different "kinds" populated the full world in how many years?
    No claim is made in the Torah. All the dates are added in by others.

    Try reading "The Science of the Torah" by Nosson Slifkin one day. You know it's good, cause they tried to ban it!

    Quote Originally Posted by fubka View Post
    This is what a YEC (Young Earth Creationists) believe. "Super Evolution" and "Kinds" It is the only way to explain the incredible diversity of species on earth in the few thousands of years after the flood myth. I guess this Noah character went around and got all the bacterial kinds too, parasitic worms, plasmodium, diatomes, even went over to South America, New Zealand, and Australia to load up all their "Kinds" too. His offspring had so many more mutations too that we set off all of the diversity in the H. Sapiens we see today.
    Why do people laugh at creationists?
    We also laugh at Biblical Literalism in general

    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    To switch gears, just slightly, I would like to know how the "people with faith" would try to explain the start of mankind to somebody who doesn't believe anything that is written in the bible.

    You guys have done a real good job of responding to my OP, it's just that with all the twists and turns that this thread has taken, i am left wondering how this should/would/could be explained to somebody that doesn't have the faith that you guys have.

    Am i taking this in a completely different direction, or does it fall in line with my original query? Or: do you guys think that you've answered this question before i even presented it?
    I think we weren't there, so we don't have a clear answer. The closest I can come up with is that the world was created in seven stages, and the sixth was the period it took for man to evolve and become sentient. I'd even suggest that the garden of Eden is a metaphor for the awareness of the dynamic between Ego (Don't eat it), Id (I wanna eat it) and Superego (Here's an idea, let's blame HER!).

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    So everything that seems unrealistic we can write off as figurative and all morals as literal?
    Nope. We don't know what to write off as what. That's the bit where we need to study and think. it's all about what has resonance for you. Do you need the Creation and Flood story to appreciate the rest? I dunno. Does a bedtime story sound right without "once Upon a Time"?

    The entire creation story is to set up the Abraham story. It's to say "So G-d made a deal with this guy. G-d? Oh He did all this other stuff".

    A flood that rose above all mountains (figurative but a big flood occured)
    A flood killing every flesh living being (figurative)
    A man living six hundred years (figurative?) (how come we dont live longer if we share his genes? oh its figurative)
    Not so much figurative as a really good chance someone botched the translation.

    So a man building an ark for a hundred years with little help, and people still believe he is a fraud (figurative)
    This is what happens when you use non-Union labor!

    So someone mentioned that since Jesus mentioned Noahs Ark he is a liar?
    Well, from where I'm sitting...

    Maybe, if this great flood is figurative maybe he doesnt lie maybe he was just being figurative with everything?
    Is someone that claims they spoke to God being figurative as well... really no way to tell...
    Hey, maybe.


    I am not trying to be a jerk even though my questionng may sound as such.
    Totally wasn't aimed at you. Was actually aimed at my fellow people of faith. I don't think someone needs faith to not be a jerk, and indeed I'd rather have a thousand decent atheists than one lousy fellow man of faith.

    You must be able to understand my point of view when the bible (im sure other biblical writings, as well) were taken as completely literal, and as time and science progressed (amongst language and traslations) now biblical scriptures are figurative as well, with any indication in their original texts. And now creationist are laughed upon because they take the bible literally as was hundreds of years ago. My time changes soo much....
    Not trying to be a jerk... just trying to be rational
    You're not being a jerk. Biblical literalism is the death of thinking. Creationism is a denial of G-d, in a way (G-d wouldn't use evolution? Who are they to say?). Faith doesn't rule out reson. Ever.

    I think the Torah is written in a way for people then to understand, and as time goes on we should be able to take the message instead of just the medium. Who knows?maybe we will eventually have the tools to quantify the G-d factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Thats the beauty of religion and free will, any question can keep in line with your OP

    like why did the dinosaurs die? was it God Giving humans more room to build houses, bc it was getting too hot/cold, bc if dinosaurs were alive they surely trample our huts! (No one answer that please! ) see how that works!
    Too bad!

    The answer is... dunno. Wasn't there.
  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    like why did the dinosaurs die? was it God Giving humans more room to build houses, bc it was getting too hot/cold, bc if dinosaurs were alive they surely trample our huts! (No one answer that please! ) see how that works!
    Kent Hovind's theory is that the dinosaurs became extinct during the Flood of Floods. OK....

    His next theory is that the dinosaurs and plant-life turned into oil/coal just from the pressures of the waters above the land. That's how the oil/coal came to be in so little time.

    To answer another one of your other posits about a man living to be 600 years old. He also had "evidence" of there being more oxygen in the world thousands of years ago. The world was just better suited for people to live for virtually ever... hence, it goes in line with the theory of Paradise on Earth until the Garden of Eden incident. He showed all kinds of awesomeness that Hyperbaric Oxygen Chambers produce... so again, sounds more than reasonable.

    He really does present some outside the box thinking that people have never even considered. I just might have to go research his theories more often some day.
  11. fubka's Avatar
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    #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    As for your "Super Evolution" and "Kinds" comment... it actually does explain it. If you have a few "Kinds" of animals & pair them up on a large enough Ark... you would at least have enough species to replenish the earth in no time at all (at least not for humans, when you consider how many children married couples had in the Old Testament).

    I've never heard Hovind mention any "Super Evolution", but he certainly did have a few dozen radical ideas I had never heard before, and, actually sounded quite plausible. If by super evolution, you mean micro evolution in insects and other lifeforms with short lifespans... then I guess???
    "Super Evolution" is what people who understand science / biology / evolution give to YECs who claimed that about 50 "kinds" are responsible for alone the 10,000 species of birds. Creationists will acknowledge evolution to explain species diversity after the flood, just that it happened in about 4,000 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    Also... have you guys ever heard of the concept of epigenetics?? I still don't quite understand it, but it seems, more or less, to be evolution within the lifetime of any given species. Actual adaptation that takes place based on "The Force" between it and its surroundings. Charles Darwin actually commented about how he believed there was a "divine force" causing these creatures to change with their surroundings.
    Epigenetics is not evolution, evolution = populations, not developmental biology and gene expression of a single individual

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    Life is a very strange concept, and I don't think we have but a fraction of the answers. And, while I might think that YECs are partially crazy, I think they have more of the truth than some atheists.

    WHEW... this thread is intense.
    By "strange concept" I would take it you mean it takes some studying, reading, and application of the scientific method. Of course it is easy to sit back, remain ignorant and proclaim, "God did it." As the YECs do.
  12. fubka's Avatar
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    #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    Kent Hovind's theory is that the dinosaurs became extinct during the Flood of Floods. OK....

    His next theory is that the dinosaurs and plant-life turned into oil/coal just from the pressures of the waters above the land. That's how the oil/coal came to be in so little time.

    To answer another one of your other posits about a man living to be 600 years old. He also had "evidence" of there being more oxygen in the world thousands of years ago. The world was just better suited for people to live for virtually ever... hence, it goes in line with the theory of Paradise on Earth until the Garden of Eden incident. He showed all kinds of awesomeness that Hyperbaric Oxygen Chambers produce... so again, sounds more than reasonable.

    He really does present some outside the box thinking that people have never even considered. I just might have to go research his theories more often some day.
    Holy crap we have a Kent Hovind supporter. Break out the print screen key.

    He also said you can spread a drop of water over the Earth, "if you spread it real thin."

    I am not kidding
  13. #173  
    Im gonna put in my last statement, cause while many in here are having great questions and debates, there are still some tools in here that feel they have to disrespect the views of others. see my tag and look at the responses. i spoke with politeness and the openess to say i respect everyones views to have their own opinion, but to resort to name calling , shows your lack of intelligent thought. So i will summarize, if you honestly are searching out the truth i beleive you will find the answer in Jesus, if not thats ok too, i would never force anyone to believe what i believe, just want to give answers to people who generally have questions. While i may have alot of knoweledge of the bible, i am smart enough to know i can't MAKE YOU Believe. That is ok too, that is whats great about our country, but because you are an unbelieving person, doesnt mean you can call others names, because we believe different. Trust me when, you are on your deathbed, i hope you are confident with your choice, i am. God Bless
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    #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    YECs claim it to have been approximately 7,000 years ago. Maybe a bit more. Kent Hovind is the master of YECs. Somebody recommend I watch his stuff, and he actually does have a few good points. If nothing less, I feel like watching his lecture is a very, very good brain teaser.
    Yeah, if you fail at basic science skills and knowledge. The guy things the earth was once covered in a layer of ice in the sky because... its in the bible. I thinks fossils can be carbon dated...

    When I was in college, we would watch clips of him for laughs, I guess some people don't get how much of an ***** he is.
  15. #175  
    Why do these threads exist? This is a phone forum.

    I feel like im taking crazy pills
  16. #176  
    I understand that this is "off topic" but surely there's a better place for discussions like this.
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    Actually...

    You do realize that all these languages HAVE been created, destroyed, re-created in only a few thousand years, right?? A quick Google puts Ancient Egypt at 3150 BC... + 2010 AD = 5160 years.
    I was being figurative about the language. I am aware that language can evolve very quickly, but not physical ethnicities.

    As for your "Super Evolution" and "Kinds" comment... it actually does explain it. If you have a few "Kinds" of animals & pair them up on a large enough Ark... you would at least have enough species to replenish the earth in no time at all (at least not for humans, when you consider how many children married couples had in the Old Testament).

    It can not be possible for the animals on the ark to produce all the flesh beings we see today. The first shred of a likeness in canines was first seen around 48 million years ago, the middle eocene period. The first wolf discovered in Europe was dated to the Early Pleistocene period. So here we are looking at 47 million years of evolution which you are saying took less then 2,000 after the flood!? And more interestingly also included reverse evolution, by reverting a wolf back to a fox. ( I know that is far fetched and no statement of exactly which animals were on the ark just an exampl of how a select few could not procreate to what we have today)
  18. fubka's Avatar
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    #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    And more interestingly also included reverse evolution, by reverting a wolf back to a fox. ( I know that is far fetched and no statement of exactly which animals were on the ark just an exampl of how a select few could not procreate to what we have today)
    See thats where your knowledge of science / biology / evolution fails, it was the "kind" that beget forth the wolf and fox lol
  19. #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    Kent Hovind's theory is that the dinosaurs became extinct during the Flood of Floods. OK....

    His next theory is that the dinosaurs and plant-life turned into oil/coal just from the pressures of the waters above the land. That's how the oil/coal came to be in so little time.

    To answer another one of your other posits about a man living to be 600 years old. He also had "evidence" of there being more oxygen in the world thousands of years ago. The world was just better suited for people to live for virtually ever... hence, it goes in line with the theory of Paradise on Earth until the Garden of Eden incident. He showed all kinds of awesomeness that Hyperbaric Oxygen Chambers produce... so again, sounds more than reasonable.

    He really does present some outside the box thinking that people have never even considered. I just might have to go research his theories more often some day.
    Does Hovind mention anything about carbon dating? Many christians have told me the earth is approximately 7,000 years old (interestingly, about 7,000 years ago, the sumarians invented glue), yet carbon dating proves, to those who accept scientific theory, that this is at best a silly notion. Also, how does Hovind address evolution? We have one species of human and over 250,000 different species of beetle. This seems like an odd choice for god.
  20. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by Reilly Stroope View Post
    I understand that this is "off topic" but surely there's a better place for discussions like this.
    Hey, if you don't want to read it... don't. So far this has been inoffensive, interesting, and entertaining.
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