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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by Typo Lad View Post
    Yup. Very much so. The closest thing in Jewish teachings to "Hell" is the idea that our souls can be in a "holding pattern" for up to a month after death, and what that holding pattern is like is debated.

    You have to be good enough to get into "hell". It's the last step before heaven. Otherwise, you go back.

    Most people aren't aware that reincarnation is a tenant of the faith.
    A tenant of the modern faith, though... no? Is it not drawn from post-Platonic greek philosophy, then Kabbalah, then widely accepted? I don't believe the concept is found in the Tanakh.

    As to your comments on unicorns... I think you and I could sit at a table and get along well.
  2. #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    So, let me get this right: Mahatma Gandhi, one of history's greatest peacemakers, is going to hell because he wasn't a Christian?

    Dude, that is some screwed up thinking.
    ..... seriously, why do you insist on making incendiary comments that have no bearing on the conversation at all? You need to realize that some of the people discussing hell in this thread are not Christian, and none of them has set any criteria for entry into heaven or hell.

    Also, Mahatma Gandhi was brought up by you an no one else.
    If you like my Themes, please donate! Thanks!

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  3. #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I disagree with your point on evolution. I believe there is obvious evidence of physical and mental progression beyond the ability to reproduce. Some birds have evolved into fantastic flyers with 12 foot wingspans, others have evolved to the point where they cannot fly (further pointing out the logic of evolution -- why would an all-knowing God create a flightless bird?). Are you saying both of these evolutionary traits increase that particular birds ability to reproduce their species?
    Actually yes. These traits do assist in reproduction! Heres why:
    Birds with upwards of a 12 ft wingspan, actually dont really "fly" they glide and use thermal lifts for the most part. Their size gives them the ability to eat things that smaller predators could not and also moves them higher on the food chain giving them less threat to be prey to another.
    Then look at the opposite side of the spectrum w/ penguins that can not fly. Their bodies have adapted to live in temperatures that barely any other being can live. By doing that their fat/body mass increases tremendously to cope with temperatures, and becaus of their "new" size unable to fly, so theyr wings have morphed to assist in a more applicable use of swimming and retatining air bubbles underwater to help propel them to high speeds. Like a flying birds wings would do in air theirs is done underwater where there source of food is.
    Access to food + low risk of prey = higher rate (safer) of pro creation.
    Nothing cruel there just amazing wonders of the world!
  4.    #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Actually yes. These traits do assist in reproduction! Heres why:
    Birds with upwards of a 12 ft wingspan, actually dont really "fly" they glide and use thermal lifts for the most part. Their size gives them the ability to eat things that smaller predators could not and also moves them higher on the food chain giving them less threat to be prey to another.
    Then look at the opposite side of the spectrum w/ penguins that can not fly. Their bodies have adapted to live in temperatures that barely any other being can live. By doing that their fat/body mass increases tremendously to cope with temperatures, and becaus of their "new" size unable to fly, so theyr wings have morphed to assist in a more applicable use of swimming and retatining air bubbles underwater to help propel them to high speeds. Like a flying birds wings would do in air theirs is done underwater where there source of food is.
    Access to food + low risk of prey = higher rate (safer) of pro creation.
    Nothing cruel there just amazing wonders of the world!
    Two
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    •• Why did God leave a connection to sinful Adam by sparing Noah .......... if he TRULY wanted to cleanse the Earth? Didn't he know it was going to get messed up again anyway, regardless of how "good" Noah was said to have been?
    The quick answer is that it didn't happen, none of it did. There was no rain, no magical dudes, no voices from above. God, Adam, Noah...all characters in a book of fiction written long ago.

    Glad that's settled.
    Sprint|Samsung Epic
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Actually yes. These traits do assist in reproduction! Heres why:
    Birds with upwards of a 12 ft wingspan, actually dont really "fly" they glide and use thermal lifts for the most part. Their size gives them the ability to eat things that smaller predators could not and also moves them higher on the food chain giving them less threat to be prey to another.
    Then look at the opposite side of the spectrum w/ penguins that can not fly. Their bodies have adapted to live in temperatures that barely any other being can live. By doing that their fat/body mass increases tremendously to cope with temperatures, and becaus of their "new" size unable to fly, so theyr wings have morphed to assist in a more applicable use of swimming and retatining air bubbles underwater to help propel them to high speeds. Like a flying birds wings would do in air theirs is done underwater where there source of food is.
    Access to food + low risk of prey = higher rate (safer) of pro creation.
    Nothing cruel there just amazing wonders of the world!
    Specious logic. The most populous bird in the world is the red-billed queleas, approximately 12cm in length, very low on the food chain, and can fit in the palm of your hand. There are about 200 million in existence right now, so their wingspan (very small but not flightless) has nothing to do with their ability to reproduce, find food, etc., yet here they are. The flightless penguin doesn't exist in extreme temperatures as a an advantage in reproduction, they are trapped there unable to fly away or to swim the distance. The penguins ability to adapt and survive is amazing, but their existence is truly sad. I recommend you rent march of the penguins and tell me how wondrous their time on this earth really is.
  7. #147  
    I was wondering when ryley would join the religion convo! haha
    In typical fashion i may add, now wheres sudoer!
  8.    #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    I was wondering when ryley would join the religion convo! haha
    In typical fashion i may add, now wheres sudoer!
    Yeah, me too!
    I saw him on a coupla other threads and i was wondering why he hadn't ventured here to help us yet.
    I was thisclose to sending him a PM invite.

    And yeah, sudoer (even though you're on the "wrong" side ), where are you?

    BTW:
    I think this thread is going GREAT so far with the ppl that are here.

    Thanks again, everybody.
  9. #149  
    I see... any explanation then as to why practically all ancient peoples have a legend that their ancestors survived a global flood? African Pygmies, European Celts, South American Incas—all have similar legends, as do peoples of Alaska, Australia, China, India, Lithuania, Mexico, Micronesia, New Zealand, and parts of North America, to mention only a few.

    Add to that the nearly global tradition of a day to honor the dead (spirits, in most cases) falling on the date the Bible marks as the beginning of the flood- Oct 31/Nov 1. (Gen 7:11) There were other survivors of the flood that were none to happy about the whole thing... see Gen 6:4 and Jude 6.

    One is free to decide what to believe, but I don't know if the subject can/ought to be dismissed lightly. Not to mention flippantly.
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    ...but I don't know if the subject can/ought to be dismissed lightly. Not to mention flippantly.
    Please don't take reacting flippantly away from me. It's all I have.

    You needn't worry about dismissing religion by the way. See above for "proof."


    Ahhh - that's better.
    Sprint|Samsung Epic
  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Specious logic. The most populous bird in the world is the red-billed queleas, approximately 12cm in length, very low on the food chain, and can fit in the palm of your hand. There are about 200 million in existence right now, so their wingspan (very small but not flightless) has nothing to do with their ability to reproduce, find food, etc., yet here they are. The flightless penguin doesn't exist in extreme temperatures as a an advantage in reproduction, they are trapped there unable to fly away or to swim the distance. The penguins ability to adapt and survive is amazing, but their existence is truly sad. I recommend you rent march of the penguins and tell me how wondrous their time on this earth really is.
    I see your logic, but this may not be the right thread.. But to reply:
    the red-billed queleas actually their own evolutionary traits.
    The size of the birds give the extraordinary agility and the ability of long flight. They are also quick with reproduction, they become fertile at a young age and lay a fairly large amt of eggs (for birds). But one major factor that aids in the success of large population is they dont live in a highly populated human environment..

    For penguins they evolved to live in temperatures of the southpole. thats where they migrated and their body adapted. They do not need flight because they have few predators and that is there advantage to procreate. And yes the march of the penguins is a sad movie. Bc they live a slow cold boring life, that is what they need to survive and give their babies a chance f survival. If you put penguins almost anywhere else in the world, i can almost agree they would go extinct the the dodo bird. No defense mechanisms, reproduce at slow speeds, poor mating habits, their anvironment is the ONLY reason they survive.
  12.    #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Please don't take reacting flippantly away from me. It's all I have....
    LoL-
    I know the feeling.

    WOW...
    I wish i had time to respond more to everybody here, but you all can sleep comfortably knowing that dbd (pqp) is at least reading everything here.
    .
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    I see... any explanation then as to why practically all ancient peoples have a legend that their ancestors survived a global flood? African Pygmies, European Celts, South American Incas—all have similar legends, as do peoples of Alaska, Australia, China, India, Lithuania, Mexico, Micronesia, New Zealand, and parts of North America, to mention only a few.

    Add to that the nearly global tradition of a day to honor the dead (spirits, in most cases) falling on the date the Bible marks as the beginning of the flood- Oct 31/Nov 1. (Gen 7:11) There were other survivors of the flood that were none to happy about the whole thing... see Gen 6:4 and Jude 6.

    One is free to decide what to believe, but I don't know if the subject can/ought to be dismissed lightly. Not to mention flippantly.
    So this may sound a little arrogant, but if all of these cultures are referencing the same flood, then it did not kill the amt of living things that the bible states. Which makes it an exaggeration, or human misinterpretation, which makes the bible not completely accurate (in a literal sense). which dictates the problem of knowing what is truthful and accurate vs what is to be taken figuratively, if not the whole being a book of morals w/ some exagerated historical events...
    Just a thought...
  14. #154  
    um... Actually, the flood would give all cultures a common ancestor, so they would from that draw the common story.
  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    A tenant of the modern faith, though... no? Is it not drawn from post-Platonic greek philosophy, then Kabbalah, then widely accepted? I don't believe the concept is found in the Tanakh.
    I do believe it is first mentioned in the Talmud, which is the redaction of the oral Law. However, as it was first redacted after years of Oral transmission, it's certainly possible it came from elsewhere.

    Although the entire concept of Yibbum and Chalitzah kind of has to do with Gilgul.

    As to your comments on unicorns... I think you and I could sit at a table and get along well.
    As long as the food's Kosher!

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    So this may sound a little arrogant, but if all of these cultures are referencing the same flood, then it did not kill the amt of living things that the bible states. Which makes it an exaggeration, or human misinterpretation, which makes the bible not completely accurate (in a literal sense). which dictates the problem of knowing what is truthful and accurate vs what is to be taken figuratively, if not the whole being a book of morals w/ some exagerated historical events...
    Just a thought...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    um... Actually, the flood would give all cultures a common ancestor, so they would from that draw the common story.

    Yeah, actually. The fact that many Native American tribes had deluge tales (usually Coyote or Crow's fault, the jerks) is actually a sign of some kind of common myth at some point. If it's the myth of the Bible or the samesource is the bit that one can freely debate.

    Oh, and no-one should ever, ever take everything in the Bible literally. half of it is poetry!
  16. #156  
    Agreed; not all is literal. Much is, however. It isn't really all that difficult to differentiate, when you read the Bible completely and let it interpret itself. E.g.- 7 headed beast in Revelation: symbolic. Flood- (filled with names, dates, geography) literal. If it never happened, Jesus' and Peter's ref to it as type for future judgement would be sort of silly.
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    #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I disagree with your point on evolution. I believe there is obvious evidence of physical and mental progression beyond the ability to reproduce. Some birds have evolved into fantastic flyers with 12 foot wingspans, others have evolved to the point where they cannot fly (further pointing out the logic of evolution -- why would an all-knowing God create a flightless bird?). Are you saying both of these evolutionary traits increase that particular birds ability to reproduce their species?

    Mans survival tool is his intellect. And we have recently evolved as a species to a point where we can prevent impregnation or end reproduction in mid-gestation. Does this not also contradict your point?
    YES, he is exactly right on evolution, all traits go back to DNA, if those traits or selected for my Natural Selection, they will increase in frequency over time. Thus over time, the population changes = evolution.

    Human evolution = mostly large cerebral cortex, which goes back to DNA.
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    #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    So, let me get this right: Mahatma Gandhi, one of history's greatest peacemakers, is going to hell because he wasn't a Christian?

    Dude, that is some screwed up thinking.
    screwed up thinking is believing in magical bush, talking snakes, and zombies
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    Agreed; not all is literal. Much is, however. It isn't really all that difficult to differentiate, when you read the Bible completely and let it interpret itself. E.g.- 7 headed beast in Revelation: symbolic. Flood- (filled with names, dates, geography) literal. If it never happened, Jesus' and Peter's ref to it as type for future judgement would be sort of silly.
    Well, you know we differ on that. Considering the Battle at Megido already happened and all, and was about the Fall of the Kings of Israel. At least, from where I'm sitting.

    But that's what's great! Free will! We're free to interpret! Sure there are wrong answers, but we have know way of knowing. Study, see what has resonance, and try not to be a jerk along the way. That's what I say.
  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    um... Actually, the flood would give all cultures a common ancestor, so they would from that draw the common story.
    If I understand what you are saying, that all of these cultures are sharing stories of their ancestors. So the stories in each of these cultures are direct relatives of those in the Ark, as would all of us in terms of the bible.

    Am I correct so far? (I just want to make sure Im understanding your side)

    So, is it a realistic argument to say that everyone in these cultures spanning from Asia to antartica down to Mexico and over to Australia all have obtained their physical features, develop their own languages and cultures through evolution in less then a thousand years after the flood?
    Which also makes me ask, why would new languages develop if the only human survivors all spoke the same language? There would be no need for other languages to surface if there was already an established one...
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