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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    ...clip...Adam was perfectly able to avoid sin. ...clip....
    Yes, Yes, Yes!
    I say again, yes.
    It's laid out clearly that that was the case.

    @dbd, yes, I was playing the Devils Advocate. And you see it for what it is. Good for you.

    I'm not trying to talk you up, but you surely are a thinking person.
    It makes no sense for a loving god to ask something from Adam he knew full well - all along - he would fail.

    Similar to what Jonesey said; just because I can do anything, or see anything doesn't mean I'm going to use this unlimited power or ability unrestrained. God is in perfect control of all his abilities, and can refrain when required by his own justice.

    The scriptures show that God did not want Adam to sin. And he didn't have to sin.

    Now back to Noah;
    God brought the deluge to justly clean wickedness from the earth. Wickedness is different than being sinful. Noah was still tainted with sin, but he wasn't wicked. In fact a sinful person can be counted as righteous by faith. This is one reason why Noah wasn't destroyed with the wicked. It would of been unjust for God to destroy a person who was trying to do right - despite being sinful - along with those who were fully wicked. God cleansed the earth of wickedness. And yet preserved humans who still had the potential to love and serve God until the Christ came, who would free mankind from bondage to sin.

    How brilliant of God!
  2.    #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    God knew that Adam and Eve would transgress his law. His entire plan was predicated on that fact. Adam and Eve would have not had children as they were innocent like unto children not knowing good nor evil.

    If they knew no good there could be no righteousness, and if they knew know evil, there could be no sin. Thus they were doomed to be in that state forever and ever. Never being able to enjoy life. God, knowing that Adam would transgress his law, provided a way for him to repent and return to him. It is only through the fall of Adam that mankind can be.
    I like this explanation.
  3.    #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    That's akin to saying the largest country/most militant is the right country. How many times have we humans got behind (in majority) the wrong thing? Take for instance, the website in which we are posting...most of us would agree that the iPhone isnt the best smartphone, but it holds a majority count over webOS.
    LoL, there just HAS to be an iPhone comparison in EVERY thread, huh?
  4.    #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Not really a point to argue, as it isnt relevant to your OP...but the Bible applies to the world in which we live in...those created in His image. Who knows or cares if there are others in this universe, which may or may not have knowledge of Him?
    I realize it's not in-line with my OP, but we can discuss more than one angle at a time, can't we?
    ...And how can you ask "who cares"?
    That's like asking who cares about what happens in other countries, because you feel that you're not affected by anything else going on around you.
  5.    #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    I love this question! And while I am sure I dont have the best answer, I like to explain it like this:

    .......Now, natural disasters and other acts of evil are not devoid of this world for reasons I cannot tell you, but He made us to only be on this world temporarily. Lessons learned from death allows us to either cling tight to what we currently have in this life, or look forward to the next step. Obviously, He wants us to do the latter. Speaking to our frailty, a natural disaster usually comprises of elements that we can benefit from...earth, wind, water, etc. Funny how little water we need to die from. Yet, we are made of the stuff.

    Just some points to consider.
    Ok. Good point.
    BUT- I fail to see how we can be expected to LOVE a god that would allow such horror to happen, even on a scale of an individual horror such as child-rape.
    I cannot love a god that allows this.
    Sorry.
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    I like this explanation.
    OK but it contradicts the Bible. Genesis 1:28 commands man to have children, obviously he intended them to have them naturally. 1 Cor 15:45 refers to Jesus as the "last Adam". Whole concept of ransom is to buy back what Adam lost... perfect human life on earth without sin.
  7.    #107  
    That's all i have time for right now, but i DO want to reply to everybody ASAP.

    P.S.- Berd, i knew it.
    P.S.- gsonspre, good 2 c ya here too.
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 05/11/2010 at 07:26 AM.
  8. #108  
    Man, I can't believe I waited this long to get involved in a religious topic here. Some of you guys are just... brilliant to talk with.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    To my understanding there is no mention of the Story of adam and eve being told by G-d to a person to write?)
    Well, that's one of the basic tenants of faith - that Moshe [Moses] received this data at Sinai.

    2nd Noahs Ark, still absolutely unproven! To me, this is the biggest flaw in the Bible. (I feel when the Bible was written man could not foresee how advanced science and technology would progress.)
    I partially agree with this in the other direction - who knew how language would shift? Like that people would take "40 days and 40 nights" as a literal term, instead of "a long **** time", as it means in the Torah according to most (the number 40 is generally used as "a lot" in ancient Hebrew).

    "This" flood is an actual earthly event that NO DOUBT would leave an imprint on the earth. But none has been discovered.
    Well, there are marks of an Extinction Level Event in the fossil record. Hey, we could always be mistranslating "flood" as "meteor strike". Or we could be assuming that the world meant the whole world and not the known world.

    I guess we'll find out when that new Chinese expedition claims they found the Ark. (If they prove true I will be happy to post back and confirm my wrongness, but Im 99.9999% sure its just another hoax!)
    Yeah, I'd be more shocked if anyone, ever found any proof, and that's as a person who believes it happened in some form. Wood artifacts just don't last that long.

    Moreso, not only could the flood have been scientifically proven, but further more it is impossible to get 2 of every living animal in any central location and sustain life as long as the flood lasted. Even in todays extreme knowledge of husbandy and climate technology its IMPOSSIBLE to accomplish this in anything the size of the Ark.
    First of all, it's two of every non-Kosher animal, but seven of all the Kosher critters... which makes the feat even more interesting. Plus there's spatial issues as well as food issues, not to mention waste management...

    Frankly, I take the entire tale as something mostly allegorical, or something beyond my ken. Because short of G-d giving Noah a shrink gun, or access to cloning tech, there's no way it can play out like that.

    I dont want others to confuse my disbeliefs of the stories in the Bible as the disbelief in a G-d. I feel humans wrote the bible within their own thoughts, (probably for a good cause) but i dont think that anyone knows or ever knew or ever truly will understand G-d. And the bible is just elaborate stories mixed with truth and exagerated truths, opinions and fiction. I think we all have it wrong, if there is a G-d that created us, thats what he did, the rest is up to the wonders of the world. Having an ultimate purpose for us being made in his image is all very human emotion-esque. We want that , we strive for a purpose, which is exactly the hole that religion filled and feeds millions of people every second of the day.
    Ah. Deism. Nice.

    I still think the Torah comes from G-d, but that man has had centuries to edit and twist it to suit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    To be fair, I'd point out that there are plenty of scientists, astronomers, mathematicians, etc. who believe in both a Creator and the accounts of Adam and Eve (or at least a single first human couple) and the flood.
    And there are also a fair number of religious people, including predominant Rabbis, who say anyone who denies evolution is in fact, denying G-d.

    However, in the end, there can only be one truth... either God exists or he doesn't. The Bible is either inspired by God and therefore reliable, or it isn't. People either continue living somehow after their death, or they don't. Reality can't allow for both alternatives.
    Actually, reality is more Fractal, than Binary. G-d might exist in a way we haven't come to understand. We may continue living, but not in a way that matters. G-d could exist, but the Bible be incorrect due to man. Etcetera, etcetra, ad nauseum.

    I personally have found sufficient evidence that convinces me that the Bible is inspired and reliable, and actually quite easy to understand. Before allowing anyone to seriously argue the alternative, I'd kindly ask, How many times have they read it? What system of study did they use?
    Ah, but that's easily turned back. How many times have you read the works they've studied?

    It's the curse of coming to the study with an idea. If you set out to prove G-d exists because you have Faith, then most of the time you're going to find "your" evidence. If you seek to disprove it, then you'll find that evidence.

    There's really only one empirical way to know, and that's to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by fubka View Post
    Why do people laugh at creationists?
    Honestly?

    Because they're taking one of several translations of a heavily-edited translation of a translation of a text written in a dead language, completely ignoring all anthropological context, ignoring accompanying texts, ignoring thousands of years of research into matters the text doesn't cover, assuming that the first chapter of Genesis is cookbook of some sort instead of a "let's get the story moved along to the father of Monothiesm", and acting like it's Hard Science.

    It's rude to laugh in their faces, but yeah, as a man of faith I find that highly laughable.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Scientific or biblical evidence!?
    I agree there had to have been a first human male and female, but not that they were created that way or that they lived in the garden of eden and ate from a tree of knowledge. Scientifically the story is not proven.
    But is it provable? Also, how word-by-word does it need to be proved? What if it's just a metaphor? Still from G-d, but a way of explaining to people thousands of years ago what it meant for early Homo Sapiens Sapiens to become aware and what happened when he did?

    Does it require proof to have resonance?

    And please reference any scientific articles citing that proof of a flood happened at the magnitude that is stated in the story of Noah...
    Not to be taken as rude but I would LOVE to read it.
    Paging Kirk Camron...
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Ok. Good point.
    BUT- I fail to see how we can be expected to LOVE a god that would allow such horror to happen, even on a scale of an individual horror such as child-rape.
    I cannot love a god that allows this.
    Sorry.
    Well, there's a question of what it means to "love" G-d means. To me, it means to show your love by working to get rid of things like child-rape.

    As for G-d "allowing", it's a catch-22. G-d "allows" us freedom, which includes freedom to do Really Bad Stuff. He also gave us a Torah (or Bible, or Koran, or Bagva Gita etc etc) as a guideline of what Not To Do. If we still do it and are caught by man, then there's a system in place. If we're not, well, Skyfather will get you if you don't watch out.

    But yeah, He allows evil as well as good. That's the entire human condition.

    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    That's all i have time for right now, but i DO want to reply to everybody ASAP.

    Ooo! Oo! Meeeee!
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Ok. Good point.
    BUT- I fail to see how we can be expected to LOVE a god that would allow such horror to happen, even on a scale of an individual horror such as child-rape.
    I cannot love a god that allows this.
    Sorry.
    And the hooey answer some will give is; 'He allows it so we will appreciate the good'
  11. #111  
    Typo Lad quote "I partially agree with this in the other direction - who knew how language would shift? Like that people would take "40 days and 40 nights" as a literal term, instead of "a long **** time", as it means in the Torah according to most (the number 40 is generally used as "a lot" in ancient Hebrew)."

    (sorry, I'm new to using the quote function )

    I agree with your points about the use of "day" (yom) for long period, such as in Gen 1,the creative "days". And there are also prophetic uses of days, weeks, etc. (Daniel) However in the case of the flood, Gen 7 and 8 give us exact days and months of the calendar year (Hebrew calendar, lunar) adding to a total of 370 days from start of rain till leaving the ark. The surrounding chronology of Noah's life etc would necessitate the literal 40 days. No problem here; God know more about earth and nature than us. Case in point: BP's intelligent scientists...

    Also this point: "He also gave us a Torah (or Bible, or Koran, or Bagva Gita etc etc) as a guideline of what Not To Do."

    I realize this isn't a popular view, but a studious comparison of the Bible, Koran, Book of Mormon, Rig-Veda, etc., actually renders them mutually exclusive. (Mostly, that the Bible excludes any other "inspired" account.)

    My point about one final truth, I think was misunderstood... Your examples actually just prove the point that there may be another truth that then excludes the others as being true. For centuries, man believed the sun to move about the earth. Then they learned the earth was the one moving, and the sun was the center. Then they learned that both were moving. All the while, the earth and sun did the same thing... Same with God; human's strong convictions have nothing to do with what He actually is like or is doing.
  12.    #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Yes, God knew what the end result would be. And yes, God knows that His will will be completed.

    Satan is only allowed to roam the earth, not rule it. As the Bible foretells, Satan will be crushed. Again, its part of God's plan. And I know you'll combat me with the "how can He love us if he lets this happen now," but if we are His children...........
    Well, this surely is a big leap in faith.
  13.    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by Typo Lad View Post
    It's certainly and interesting discusion.



    I personally think of it this way: G-d created a complex system with interlocking laws. So... natural disasters happen on their own, and it's how we react that is the "test"..........
    NATURAL DISASTERS HAPPEN ON THEIR OWN????

    Aren't events like hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanos etc of such magnitude that only a "supreme" being can cause such a thing?
    Isn't that what religious people say?
    If he can cause it, then he can prevent it.
  14.    #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    And the hooey answer some will give is; 'He allows it so we will appreciate the good'
    Lol, you're good at this "devil's advocate" stuff. Did you used to play one on TV?
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    NATURAL DISASTERS HAPPEN ON THEIR OWN????

    Aren't events like hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanos etc of such magnitude that only a "supreme" being can cause such a thing?
    Isn't that what religious people say?
    I sure don't. I mean, in the sense that only a Supreme Being could set such a complex system in motion, sure. But the idea of a Skyfather deciding to throw lighting bolts at people in the form of an earthquake? Naaaah.

    If he can cause it, then he can prevent it.
    Can and does are not the same things.

    G-d can do whatever. And yeah, as the First Cause, everything comes from Him. But that doesn't mean that He's an active, moment-to-moment Deity, watching every sparrow fall.

    Alternatively, maybe He does cause everything and is working moment to moment, but then Free Will has no point, so I don't buy the Interventionist G-d idea. Unless the point is to see how we react, of course.

    He set the parameters of the experiment, watched it, and walked away. We just feel like we're still in it because from our perspective, we are.
  16.    #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by Typo Lad View Post
    ......He set the parameters of the experiment, watched it, and walked away.....
    "Experiment"?
    An almighty-all-knowing being "experimenting"?
    .....Even though he would already know the outcome??
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    Typo Lad quote "I partially agree with this in the other direction - who knew how language would shift? Like that people would take "40 days and 40 nights" as a literal term, instead of "a long **** time", as it means in the Torah according to most (the number 40 is generally used as "a lot" in ancient Hebrew)."

    (sorry, I'm new to using the quote function )
    It's easy. Just type [ quote ] to start and [ / quote ] to stop, minus spaces.

    I agree with your points about the use of "day" (yom) for long period, such as in Gen 1,the creative "days". And there are also prophetic uses of days, weeks, etc. (Daniel) However in the case of the flood, Gen 7 and 8 give us exact days and months of the calendar year (Hebrew calendar, lunar) adding to a total of 370 days from start of rain till leaving the ark. The surrounding chronology of Noah's life etc would necessitate the literal 40 days.
    I gotta start keeping a Chumash at work, but I'll take your word on it for now.

    No problem here; God know more about earth and nature than us. Case in point: BP's intelligent scientists...
    Heh.

    Also this point: "He also gave us a Torah (or Bible, or Koran, or Bagva Gita etc etc) as a guideline of what Not To Do."

    I realize this isn't a popular view, but a studious comparison of the Bible, Koran, Book of Mormon, Rig-Veda, etc., actually renders them mutually exclusive. (Mostly, that the Bible excludes any other "inspired" account.)
    Oh, I wasn't trying to say they were they same thing. Sorry. I was trying to say that depending on your personal affiliation, you have a guidebook.

    My point about one final truth, I think was misunderstood... Your examples actually just prove the point that there may be another truth that then excludes the others as being true.
    While I'm flattered, more "supports" than "proves".

    For centuries, man believed the sun to move about the earth. Then they learned the earth was the one moving, and the sun was the center. Then they learned that both were moving. All the while, the earth and sun did the same thing... Same with God; human's strong convictions have nothing to do with what He actually is like or is doing.
    And I actually agree with that quite a bit, and thought I'd made a similar point somewhere along here.

    We can't Know G-d. No matter what your personal text says, it's been translated, filtered, edited, and twisted. You can make a personal best guess, and maybe try not to be a jerk, but that's about it.
  18.    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by illadelphatic View Post
    There was no Adam or Eve, and thinking about the OP's question in light of the fact that the Old Testament is largely allegorical might help clarify some things. Humans are the result of evolution; to deny the evidence of evolution is foolish. God did create humans, but he took a long time to do it. Evolution is God's creation, he manipulates this universe so sublety that no one can ever prove that he exists based on empirical evidence, and yet he manipulates the universe powerfully enough to protect the free will of every human in the universe. At some point in the last million or so years, the human brain evolved the structures required to receive a spiritual connection with God, and this early stage in human evolution is what is represented by Adam and Eve.

    During this time period, man was truly innocent and had a face-to-face perception of spirtual things; the Garden of Eden represents the fact that man was basically living in Heaven and laying the evolutionary groundwork for human's required connection with God.

    Of course, this was not the fufillment of God's creation; God did not create man and stick them in front of Himself and say, "love me and worship me". He created us so that we could choose to love Him and worship Him, because you cannot love something deeply when you are obligated to do so. So he allowed us to reject Him, and that is when we ate of the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

    In the time since, man has twice become so evil that God was required to intervene directly, and not so subtlely; if He had not, then we no longer would have had the free will to choose to love and be with God. After each intervention, a new era of spirituality began. Like the growth of a human brain, man's spirtual growth has grown, starting with an infantile innocence of the pre-biblical, Garden of Eden era, aging to a young child's understanding of punishment and reward as we see in the Israelites of the Old Testament, to the teenage years of the Christian Era. I believe that we are currently beyond the Christian Era, and that the Christian Church fell prey to fallacies so harmful to man's spiritual life that God once again intervened as He said He would, and revealed Himself again to Emanuel Swedenborg in 1745 and appointed him to reveal the true spiritual meaning of the Old and New Testaments. After doing so, Humans entered into the rational era (spiritually speaking). It is my opinion that the spread of rational ideas in the world has caused not only a technological and scientific explosion, but also an explosion of people who reject the Bible and the seemingly irrational nonsense that is contained in it, especially in the Old Testament. Just as Christianity began with only twelve disciples, and perhaps a few dozen others, the knowledge of the Second Coming of God is not well known. I have met many agnostics who have complained about the fact that the Bible does not seem to offer many answers, but they still sometimes entertain the idea of God. To those people, check out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg and if that piques your interest at all, try following some of the external links.

    And remember the story of David and Goliath: David was able to fell a monstrous evil with a couple of smooth stones that he gathered from a small creek. What that means (back to the whole allegorical thing) is that in order to conquer even the worst of temptations, go to a source of truth (the Bible) and pick out a couple of smooth stones (interpret this as truths from the Bible that are unmistakeable, both in, and out of context; for instance the ten commandments) and use those stones to conquer temptation.

    Thats my piece, its not really a direct answer to the OP, but oh well.
    This is an interesting explanation too, but you really have to wrap your mind around it.
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    "Experiment"?
    An almighty-all-knowing being "experimenting"?
    .....Even though he would already know the outcome??
    Well yeah, sure. That's how He'd get to be all knowing.

    I posted this yesterday. It all depends on what you think "all knowing" means. To me, it's predicated on the idea of G-d as outside creation, and time/space are part of that creation. When He created the universe, for whatever reason (the experiment thing is just a metaphor of sorts), He likely would have experienced the creation, existence, and heat-death of the universe all "at once".

    So yeah, all knowing, because it's already happened/will happen/is happening.

    Then again, that's just my take.
  20.    #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    DBD good to hear from you again on this topic buddy!

    I think you know my stance on this already but to chime in:
    I think your question is a trick question from a non religious stand point.

    1st you have to assume Adam and Eve existed. (Who learned this story? Adam and Eve wouldve been created before any established language, written or verbal. And their kids would have no form of communciation unable to tell the story of creation. To my understanding there is no mention of the Story of adam and eve being told by G-d to a person to write?) .....

    PS Love the tags DBD! hahaha
    Heh heh, thanks. Somehow I always attract the worst tags.

    ....And yes, who was around to document what Adam and Eve said and did or whatnot?
    How was it known, if nobody else was there?

    Edit:
    Oops- Already answered earlier by Typo Lad.
    Anybody else?
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 05/11/2010 at 11:35 AM.
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