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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    There's too much here to address while imbibing, and I had more fun being sarcastic. I'll simply state that proof requires no faith. Starting with "I think, therefore I am," we are obligated to accept that which our senses present to us as fact and progress from there. There has been no situation I've experienced where I can say without hesitation that God exists. Had He not been presented to me by others, it is quite certain I would have no concept of Him at all. Unlike an atheist, however, I do not disregard that which is not self-evident - and so I entertain the concept of God.
    In this instance, Faith is started by the historical events witnessed and passed on through the Bible. In your case, you had people present to you the concept of the Biblical God. But you cannot say that that occurance was devoid of God's intervention, as a God who is theoretically Omnipotent and Omnipresent couldve utilized that person/people.

    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    Evolution does NOT dictate 'improvement' - a bird's single lung is significantly more efficient than our own, but ours appears to be 'good enough.' Sharks don't get cancer and lobsters won't die of old age; both afflict us - and yet we thrive. Our reproductive success is evidence of evolution. If malaria had been more adaptive, the percentage of the population w/sickle cell anemia would possibly increase and biological adaptations that ultimately improve our ability to live with it would also possibly increase. Or we'd be wiped out. As the conditions stand, we are suited to success.
    Interesting...I always thought evolving would equal change (mainly for the better). This idea (cross-referenced with wikipedia) merely sounds like survival through procreation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    Then, quite frankly, he should be looking toward people much smarter than you or I who've tackled these questions and progressed our understanding. Or just decide to live with the vague uncertainty that the lack of conviction yields.

    edit: grammatical correction
    Nah, people are people. We are influenced by all types of people. No one person appeals to all, thus the diversity of people who are being used today.
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    ..... And are we supposed to be the only beings that know of Him even though there are gazillions of other planets out there?
    Not really a point to argue, as it isnt relevant to your OP...but the Bible applies to the world in which we live in...those created in His image. Who knows or cares if there are others in this universe, which may or may not have knowledge of Him?
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Not really a point to argue, as it isnt relevant to your OP...but the Bible applies to the world in which we live in...those created in His image. Who knows or cares if there are others in this universe, which may or may not have knowledge of Him?
    true point but didnt god create everything, even the universe we live. Yes he created man in his image, but does that mean he didnt create the dog, the lion, the bear etc because it wasnt in his image?
  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    If He loves us, why does He let horrible "natural" disasters kill hundreds of thousands of HIS people at a time?
    What is He trying to teach us with that?
    What does "free will" have to do with that?
    Not a punisher??
    Really?
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Ok, what of the natural disasters?
    I love this question! And while I am sure I dont have the best answer, I like to explain it like this:

    God is our 'father'. We are His 'children'. Parents allow their children to make mistakes, and even learn on our own. That's what he does...consults us and points us in the right direction.

    Now, natural disasters and other acts of evil are not devoid of this world for reasons I cannot tell you, but He made us to only be on this world temporarily. Lessons learned from death allows us to either cling tight to what we currently have in this life, or look forward to the next step. Obviously, He wants us to do the latter. Speaking to our frailty, a natural disaster usually comprises of elements that we can benefit from...earth, wind, water, etc. Funny how little water we need to die from. Yet, we are made of the stuff.

    Just some points to consider.
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Not really a point to argue, as it isnt relevant to your OP...but the Bible applies to the world in which we live in...those created in His image. Who knows or cares if there are others in this universe, which may or may not have knowledge of Him?
    Although extraterrestrials are not covered in the Bible explicitly (that whole concept has been made up by humans fairly recently) it's clear that God loves his whole creation (the Apostle John wrote, "God IS love") so it seems clear that if any other worlds with sentient beings exist, God would have provided for them somehow. C.S. Lewis wrote in a similar vein on this point in the 1940s or 50s, I believe.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    true point but didnt god create everything, even the universe we live. Yes he created man in his image, but does that mean he didnt create the dog, the lion, the bear etc because it wasnt in his image too?
    How did you extract that from my post? The post that I quoted referenced E.T.'s, not wildlife.

    Animals, like plants, and whatever terrestrial objects that is NOT made in His image were still made by Him. He only made MAN in His image.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    God is said to be "all knowing", right?
    If that's the case, didn't he know Adam & Eve would mess up? And so on and so on?
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    My quest is to be able to understand why God would spare Noah knowing that the connection to sin was still there and the same "stuff" was bound to happen again anyway.

    And while we're at it, why is it said that he allows Satan to rule the world?
    What kind of love is that?
    Yes, God knew what the end result would be. And yes, God knows that His will will be completed.

    Satan is only allowed to roam the earth, not rule it. As the Bible foretells, Satan will be crushed. Again, its part of God's plan. And I know you'll combat me with the "how can He love us if he lets this happen now," but if we are His children, how are we to understand His reasoning? I'm not the smartest person in the world, but it seems obvious that we cannot understand an infinite being if we cannot even fully understand our finite world.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Not really a point to argue, as it isnt relevant to your OP...but the Bible applies to the world in which we live in...those created in His image. Who knows or cares if there are others in this universe, which may or may not have knowledge of Him?
    It's certainly and interesting discusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    I love this question! And while I am sure I dont have the best answer, I like to explain it like this:

    God is our 'father'. We are His 'children'. Parents allow their children to make mistakes, and even learn on our own. That's what he does...consults us and points us in the right direction.

    Now, natural disasters and other acts of evil are not devoid of this world for reasons I cannot tell you, but He made us to only be on this world temporarily. Lessons learned from death allows us to either cling tight to what we currently have in this life, or look forward to the next step. Obviously, He wants us to do the latter. Speaking to our frailty, a natural disaster usually comprises of elements that we can benefit from...earth, wind, water, etc. Funny how little water we need to die from. Yet, we are made of the stuff.

    Just some points to consider.
    I personally think of it this way: G-d created a complex system with interlocking laws. So... natural disasters happen on their own, and it's how we react that is the "test" from G-d.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    How did you extract that from my post? The post that I quoted referenced E.T.'s, not wildlife.

    Animals, like plants, and whatever terrestrial objects that is NOT made in His image were still made by Him. He only made MAN in His image.
    Generally, in the circles I've studied, the "in the Image of G-d" line refers to the bestowing of Free Will".

    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Y
    Satan is only allowed to roam the earth, not rule it. As the Bible foretells, Satan will be crushed. Again, its part of God's plan.
    Except "Satan" doesn't appear in the Torah as the concept. The Fall isn't in there, etc. That all comes much later.

    How do you parse G-d's plan if the "Satan" is just all our Ids?

    And I know you'll combat me with the "how can He love us if he lets this happen now," but if we are His children, how are we to understand His reasoning? I'm not the smartest person in the world, but it seems obvious that we cannot understand an infinite being if we cannot even fully understand our finite world.
    True, but it is by questioning G-d that we come to know him. Worked for Avrohom.
  9. #89  
    Regarding natural disasters, this is the basic Christian view, as far as I understand: God set up everything to allow for man's free will and gave man a limited form of rulership over the earth, but this was based on man's submission to God. God commanded Adam to reproduce and fill the earth as well as to govern it compassionately, i.e. to fulfill God's loving wishes for the earth. By disobeying God, Adam basically surrendered to the "other side", thereby opening the door to a whole series of events, including abdicating authority to govern the earth compassionately and giving Satan the legal right to wreak havoc. That havoc includes natural disasters and an overall evil influence on people, who by and large tend to agree with Satan and thus start wars, etc.
  10. #90  
    There was no Adam or Eve, and thinking about the OP's question in light of the fact that the Old Testament is largely allegorical might help clarify some things. Humans are the result of evolution; to deny the evidence of evolution is foolish. God did create humans, but he took a long time to do it. Evolution is God's creation, he manipulates this universe so sublety that no one can ever prove that he exists based on empirical evidence, and yet he manipulates the universe powerfully enough to protect the free will of every human in the universe. At some point in the last million or so years, the human brain evolved the structures required to receive a spiritual connection with God, and this early stage in human evolution is what is represented by Adam and Eve.

    During this time period, man was truly innocent and had a face-to-face perception of spirtual things; the Garden of Eden represents the fact that man was basically living in Heaven and laying the evolutionary groundwork for human's required connection with God.

    Of course, this was not the fufillment of God's creation; God did not create man and stick them in front of Himself and say, "love me and worship me". He created us so that we could choose to love Him and worship Him, because you cannot love something deeply when you are obligated to do so. So he allowed us to reject Him, and that is when we ate of the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

    In the time since, man has twice become so evil that God was required to intervene directly, and not so subtlely; if He had not, then we no longer would have had the free will to choose to love and be with God. After each intervention, a new era of spirituality began. Like the growth of a human brain, man's spirtual growth has grown, starting with an infantile innocence of the pre-biblical, Garden of Eden era, aging to a young child's understanding of punishment and reward as we see in the Israelites of the Old Testament, to the teenage years of the Christian Era. I believe that we are currently beyond the Christian Era, and that the Christian Church fell prey to fallacies so harmful to man's spiritual life that God once again intervened as He said He would, and revealed Himself again to Emanuel Swedenborg in 1745 and appointed him to reveal the true spiritual meaning of the Old and New Testaments. After doing so, Humans entered into the rational era (spiritually speaking). It is my opinion that the spread of rational ideas in the world has caused not only a technological and scientific explosion, but also an explosion of people who reject the Bible and the seemingly irrational nonsense that is contained in it, especially in the Old Testament. Just as Christianity began with only twelve disciples, and perhaps a few dozen others, the knowledge of the Second Coming of God is not well known. I have met many agnostics who have complained about the fact that the Bible does not seem to offer many answers, but they still sometimes entertain the idea of God. To those people, check out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg and if that piques your interest at all, try following some of the external links.

    And remember the story of David and Goliath: David was able to fell a monstrous evil with a couple of smooth stones that he gathered from a small creek. What that means (back to the whole allegorical thing) is that in order to conquer even the worst of temptations, go to a source of truth (the Bible) and pick out a couple of smooth stones (interpret this as truths from the Bible that are unmistakeable, both in, and out of context; for instance the ten commandments) and use those stones to conquer temptation.

    Thats my piece, its not really a direct answer to the OP, but oh well.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    God is our 'father'. We are His 'children'. Parents allow their children to make mistakes, and even learn on our own. That's what he does...consults us and points us in the right direction.
    I would never let my 'kids' murder and rape each other to gain life lessons. As a father, I would know better than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Satan is only allowed to roam the earth, not rule it. As the Bible foretells, Satan will be crushed. Again, its part of God's plan.
    god ALLOWS an evil demon to roam around and corrupt his 'children' that he designed to be susceptible to manipulation (according to the Adam and Eve story)? Should cops let serial rapists roam towns to 'test' the civilians' faith in law enforcement? I mean, everyone has free-will right?
    August 2009 - January 2011. Thank god I'm no longer a Pre user!

  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by octoberorange View Post
    I would never let my 'kids' murder and rape each other to gain life lessons. As a father, I would know better than that.
    Show me the parent of the murderer who teaches their child to murder, or allows them to murder. Sometimes being free means being free to choose something stupid or outright evil.

    God isn't a puppet master (imo), and allows his children to make mistakes. You could be the best father in the world, but nothing you can do short of removing their freedom will keep them away from doing something wrong if they really want to do it.

    god ALLOWS an evil demon to roam around and corrupt his 'children' that he designed to be susceptible to manipulation (according to the Adam and Eve story)? Should cops let serial rapists roam towns to 'test' the civilians' faith in law enforcement? I mean, everyone has free-will right?
    First and foremost, just because one is "free to choose", doesn't mean they are free from consequence. Your arguement that we should allow cops to let serial rapists roam towns to test the civilians faith is a bit over the top. God is not the master maniuplator, but he is a teacher. Those who follow will find themselves on his side at the end. Those who do not in this life, certainly will reap what they sow. Also, I think people give the devil too much credit. I think that certain people can do evil things without prompting.
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  13. #93  
    DBD good to hear from you again on this topic buddy!

    I think you know my stance on this already but to chime in:
    I think your question is a trick question from a non religious stand point.

    1st you have to assume Adam and Eve existed. (Who learned this story? Adam and Eve wouldve been created before any established language, written or verbal. And their kids would have no form of communciation unable to tell the story of creation. To my understanding there is no mention of the Story of adam and eve being told by G-d to a person to write?)

    2nd Noahs Ark, still absolutely unproven! To me, this is the biggest flaw in the Bible. (I feel when the Bible was written man could not foresee how advanced science and technology would progress.) "This" flood is an actual earthly event that NO DOUBT would leave an imprint on the earth. But none has been discovered. I guess we'll find out when that new Chinese expedition claims they found the Ark. (If they prove true I will be happy to post back and confirm my wrongness, but Im 99.9999% sure its just another hoax!)
    Moreso, not only could the flood have been scientifically proven, but further more it is impossible to get 2 of every living animal in any central location and sustain life as long as the flood lasted. Even in todays extreme knowledge of husbandy and climate technology its IMPOSSIBLE to accomplish this in anything the size of the Ark.

    I dont want others to confuse my disbeliefs of the stories in the Bible as the disbelief in a G-d. I feel humans wrote the bible within their own thoughts, (probably for a good cause) but i dont think that anyone knows or ever knew or ever truly will understand G-d. And the bible is just elaborate stories mixed with truth and exagerated truths, opinions and fiction. I think we all have it wrong, if there is a G-d that created us, thats what he did, the rest is up to the wonders of the world. Having an ultimate purpose for us being made in his image is all very human emotion-esque. We want that , we strive for a purpose, which is exactly the hole that religion filled and feeds millions of people every second of the day.

    PS Love the tags DBD! hahaha
    Last edited by gsonspre; 05/10/2010 at 06:11 PM.
  14. #94  
    To be fair, I'd point out that there are plenty of scientists, astronomers, mathematicians, etc. who believe in both a Creator and the accounts of Adam and Eve (or at least a single first human couple) and the flood. There is quite a bit of evidence for all three, although you don't personally find it convincing enough.
    It's fair to say that NO amount of empirical evidence or any other argument would be able to convince someone who doesn't really want to think a certain way. I know many otherwise rational people who have surprised me by denying that dinosaurs ever lived, that the Holocaust ever occurred, that man walked on the moon...
    If one wants to argue metaphysics and philosophy, so be it. However, in the end, there can only be one truth... either God exists or he doesn't. The Bible is either inspired by God and therefore reliable, or it isn't. People either continue living somehow after their death, or they don't. Reality can't allow for both alternatives.
    I personally have found sufficient evidence that convinces me that the Bible is inspired and reliable, and actually quite easy to understand. Before allowing anyone to seriously argue the alternative, I'd kindly ask, How many times have they read it? What system of study did they use?

    These types of conversations are best had in person, so as to know if the listener is nodding his head, or rolling his eyes.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by octoberorange View Post
    I would never let my 'kids' murder and rape each other to gain life lessons. As a father, I would know better than that.



    god ALLOWS an evil demon to roam around and corrupt his 'children' that he designed to be susceptible to manipulation (according to the Adam and Eve story)? Should cops let serial rapists roam towns to 'test' the civilians' faith in law enforcement? I mean, everyone has free-will right?
    Hmmm. Is this otherwise known as the "Why-isn't-God-workin'-da-beat-harder" theory?
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    #96  
    Why do people laugh at creationists?
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    To be fair, I'd point out that there are plenty of scientists, astronomers, mathematicians, etc. who believe in both a Creator and the accounts of Adam and Eve (or at least a single first human couple) and the flood. There is quite a bit of evidence for all three, although you don't personally find it convincing enough.
    Scientific or biblical evidence!?
    I agree there had to have been a first human male and female, but not that they were created that way or that they lived in the garden of eden and ate from a tree of knowledge. Scientifically the story is not proven.

    And please reference any scientific articles citing that proof of a flood happened at the magnitude that is stated in the story of Noah...
    Not to be taken as rude but I would LOVE to read it.
  18. #98  
    Geology professor John McCampbell once wrote: “The essential differences between Biblical catastrophism [the Flood] and evolutionary uniformitarianism are not over the factual data of geology but over the interpretations of those data. The interpretation preferred will depend largely upon the background and presuppositions of the individual student. (The Genesis Flood, by John C.*Whitcomb,*Jr. and Henry M.*Morris, 1967, p.*17)
    Much of which is explained by meteor strikes, ice ages, etc. could also be explained by a flood. Sudden extinction of many species, land reshaping, etc.
    The scriptual account does not require two of each species, it says "kinds". Some have estimated as few as 50 "kinds" of mammals, for example, could then produce today's variety. (For example, only one type of "dog" becomes all canine varieties)
    Also, the entire Bible refers to flood; dismissing it as a myth causes the greater problem of making Jesus a liar, not to mention Matthew, Peter, Paul...
    Perhaps it would be easiest to first try to decide (on other points) if the Bible is reliable. Then internal evidence becomes more viable.
  19. #99  
    too tired to address every concern...lol but as far as bd things happening.. short version. God created the Earth and gave ALL power and dominion over the earth, Adam basically handed over the keys to that dominion ( see numerous scriptures) so all the Bad stuff that happens is the Devil, God has to follow the laws he set in motion, ie: man having dominion who gave it to satan. so satan still rules the physical earth and its ways, though jesus we can overcome these laws and bad things see (psalm 91) desribes our benefits through God. God set the "law" that man was to rule the earth, he adam gave over the keys, so God cannot lie and say oops wait Adam screwed up and i want a redo, no he made a way for man to be redeemed. so rapes and murders etc are all evil an God gave us a way to be safe from them ( Jesus) many, many , many scriptures that show us all that we are promised in the inheritance that comes by faith through Jesus ( protection, blessings, health etc....) so that is why God has to follow the rules he set up. otherwise he would be a liar.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by octoberorange View Post
    I would never let my 'kids' murder and rape each other to gain life lessons. As a father, I would know better than that.
    I love how you take the extreme point, but as others have already pointed out, you dont control your kids. Not to flame you, but if they did turn out to be killers, do you think they would ALLOW you to control them? Funny...

    Anyways, yes...an omnipotent God allows these things to happen, including us to choose evil ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by octoberorange View Post
    god ALLOWS an evil demon to roam around and corrupt his 'children' that he designed to be susceptible to manipulation (according to the Adam and Eve story)? Should cops let serial rapists roam towns to 'test' the civilians' faith in law enforcement? I mean, everyone has free-will right?
    See above. But since you started a nice extreme example, I would be remiss to drop the buck...Why do you need a cop to stop serial rapists or killers? And if your example hints at a lack of higher authority, then who says a cop is going to stop said evil?

    Basic point that was hit on earlier is that God CAN control us. He wants us to love Him of our own free will. And free will comes with consequences...like people choosing iPhones over Pres and Blackberries over Windows Mobile devices. (thats me taking away extreme examples that can flame others, which will demolish any attempt at a civilized and productive debating arena).
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