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  1. #61  
    Chiming in as a Jewish person and hoping I don't regret it...

    To answer the OP's question, my understanding is this: The relationship of Man/G-d changed from generation to generation.

    Adam had two commandments, a positive and a negative: Eat of all the fruits in my garden (enjoy the world)/don't eat this one fruit (restrain yourself from total gluttony). He failed (and Chava[Eve] doesn't get any extra blame. No-one put a gun to his head). For that failure to uphold his contract, he was evicted.

    Following that, there were seven rules: Monothiesm, Sanctity of Human Life, Right of Property, Rules of Sexual Congress, Blasphemy, Banning the eating of flesh of a living creature, and the commandment to establish courts of justice. The generation of Noach [Noah] managed to breach all of these. Noah didn't (although it's interesting that the Torah calls him "a righteous man in his generation", with the implication that had he been born in a less base time, he'd just be one of the guys).

    In the time of Noach, G-d chose to "cleanse" the "world" (presumably the known world, since that's usually what the Torah means), and Noach got a pass. His actions had nothing to do with Adam, so that doesn't really enter the equation.

    I skimmed some of the other responses and yeah, it does come off as insanely harsh if one is picturing this angry dude with a beard in the sky raining down fire and junk.

    My personal take on G-d has always been a bit more of the Prime Mover take - G-d sets things in motion, and has some sort of purpose. He's All-Knowing because He's outside time/space, so even if we have Free Will, he knows what we will/did chose. I see us as some sort of labrats, being nudged/blocked at times for the purpose of the experiment, but from His perspective, it all happened at once (G-d as the Wormhole Aliens from DS9?).

    Even ignoring that, once you accept the thesis statement that there is a Supreme Being that not only created the entire universe and life, but had a direct dialogue, then it's "easy" to accept the idea that G-d has the "right" to undo it, like a programmer trimming errant code.

    Of course, that's all dependent on accepting the thesis statement. Which no-one has to, and I don't blame them since so much has been done in G-d's name that is just... ugh.
    Last edited by Typo Lad; 05/10/2010 at 06:52 AM. Reason: What the heck... J-E-W is censored here?
  2. #62  
    Just a side thought but somewhat related;
    If God is all knowing, he would have had to known Adam would fail. Not just knowing Adam had the potential to sin, but that Adam would sin. All mankind are therefore sold into sin not by Adam, but rather by God who knew very well that Adam, whom he hadn't created yet would sin. How dare God hold mankind accountable, If he knew Adam would sin.
  3.    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Just a side thought but somewhat related;
    If God is all knowing, he would have had to known Adam would fail. Not just knowing Adam had the potential to sin, but that Adam would sin. All mankind are therefore sold into sin not by Adam, but rather by God who knew very well that Adam, whom he hadn't created yet would sin. How dare God hold mankind accountable, If he knew Adam would sin.
    Berd:

    I hope you're not just playing the devil's advocate (because i've seen your views on this matter before ), but this is EXACTLY what i'm talking about.
    It's just that you were better able to make it perfectly clear than i was.

    Edit: (Except; not how "dare" he, but how COULD he hold mankind accountable if he knew Adam would sin.)

    Last edited by dbdoinit; 05/10/2010 at 07:55 AM.
  4. #64  
    Technically, even if G-d is All Knowing, that doesn't mean he "made" Adam sin. He gave Adam Free Will, and Adam chose to sin.

    Think of it as an alternate timeline thing - there are two possible "branches"; eat the fruit, or don't. Until Adam "chose" both were viable "realities". If G-d is outside of time and space, G-d could see both realities. Adam couldn't, and chose one. The other ceased to exist for Adam, etc. Then keep setting potential "forks", and pruning off some with direct manipulation (the deluge) and so on and so forth.

    To what purpose? Dunno. It's just a theory.

    And as for "sold into sin"... technically, just by having the capacity to sin, we're already "sold into sin" by G-d. Man wasn't created to be perfect (in the originally ancient Hebrew, the bit "in his image" is on Man, not G-d... the full line is "in his image, and in the image of G-d", meaning man is man first, then a creation of G-d's).

    So yeah, you can surely say it's all G-d's "fault". Either he gets all the credit and all the blame, or we do.
  5. #65  
    Bible´s answer to op? is this: Gen 1:28 stated God's purpose for earth. Adam and Eve's deviation did not change God's purpose, since he is omnipotent. Isaiah 55:11 shows that, also see Is 45:18. God's solution to their rebellion was immediately mentioned at Gen 3:15, indicating the punishment of rebels and salvation of mankind through a "seed" or descendant of Adam and Eve. Extermination of Noah (and other 7 survivors) would have made this impossible. (Jesus was a descendent of Noah, see Luke 3:36. Also, starting all over with new humans does not resolve the rebellion of Satan, who would still have been free to start it up again with them.

    Philosophy and religious dogma aside, this is the scriptural answer.
  6.    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by Typo Lad View Post
    Technically, even if G-d is All Knowing, that doesn't mean he "made" Adam sin. He gave Adam Free Will, and Adam chose to sin.
    Not that he "made" Adam sin.
    Being "all-knowing", wouldn't he KNOW that Adam would "choose" to sin?
  7. #67  
    It's a question asked over and over. The crux is- what does "All Knowing" mean?

    I always understood it in the context of G-d being outside of His creation, which included time. So He knows it all because it all happens at once. For all we know, He already finished His purpose, etc, but we're inside time, so we don't know.

    Or it could mean that G-d knows all the possible outcomes, and they don't come into effect till we chose them.

    Or it could mean reality is fractal and G-d sees all the bits at once.

    Or it could just be a hairless ape trying to find words to explain the concept of the divine.
  8. #68  
    Again, scriptural answer: God's omniscience does not require that he use it in all cases, just as his omnipotence does not require him to use his power to the full in every case. Your internet connection gives you access to much information that you choose NOT to look at. A strong man is not compelled to lift every weight in the gym just because he is able. God created Adam with free will, and Adam was perfectly able to avoid sin. Predestination is not a scriptural concept: here are some texts-
    Titus 1:2- God cannot lie
    1 John 4:8- God is love
    Psalm 33:5- God loves justice
    Deut 32:4- God is perfectly just and righteous
    Gen 18:21, 22:12- examples of God LEARNING about individuals, indicating that he did not know previously.

    The understanding of God's omnipotence, omniscience, and perfection, must not be based on some arbitrary standard but rather must harmonize with His other qualities and purpose as outlined in scripture.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    While i'm sorry for what you have been through, and i admire your convictions, you don't know what any of us has been through, so please don't assume that everybody else is better off than you.

    It could ALWAYS be worse.
    correct I have no idea what anyone has gone through, and they could have been in worse. As stated in my reply I did not state that my life was any worse then others, I gave examples of how my life was, and how god was still there for me even though I thought it was the worse, in my situation. So assume anything I didnt please read before replying.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    Again, scriptural answer: God's omniscience does not require that he use it in all cases, just as his omnipotence does not require him to use his power to the full in every case. Your internet connection gives you access to much information that you choose NOT to look at. A strong man is not compelled to lift every weight in the gym just because he is able. God created Adam with free will, and Adam was perfectly able to avoid sin. Predestination is not a scriptural concept: here are some texts-
    Titus 1:2- God cannot lie
    1 John 4:8- God is love
    Psalm 33:5- God loves justice
    Deut 32:4- God is perfectly just and righteous
    Gen 18:21, 22:12- examples of God LEARNING about individuals, indicating that he did not know previously.

    The understanding of God's omnipotence, omniscience, and perfection, must not be based on some arbitrary standard but rather must harmonize with His other qualities and purpose as outlined in scripture.
    As a fellow religious person (albeit a different fork) I have to point out that "because the Bible Tells Us So" is a very reductive answer. Especially as Psalms is poetic in nature and written by man, so we can't really say it's any kind of clue on G-d's nature, but rather a clue as to how man sees G-d.

    The problem is that to best understand bits in the Torah, you need to know ancient Hebrew, understand context (cultural and otherwise) and idiom, lingual shift and a dozen other things.The same applies to the NT (minus the "ancient Hebrew" bit).

    It's how we end up with people who get chuffed over the word "yom" meaning a literal day, even though it can also mean "period of time".
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by Typo Lad View Post
    As a fellow religious person (albeit a different fork) I have to point out that "because the Bible Tells Us So" is a very reductive answer. Especially as Psalms is poetic in nature and written by man, so we can't really say it's any kind of clue on G-d's nature, but rather a clue as to how man sees G-d.

    The problem is that to best understand bits in the Torah, you need to know ancient Hebrew, understand context (cultural and otherwise) and idiom, lingual shift and a dozen other things.The same applies to the NT (minus the "ancient Hebrew" bit).

    It's how we end up with people who get chuffed over the word "yom" meaning a literal day, even though it can also mean "period of time".
    what your saying here makes alot of sense, though I ask if lets say man wrote the bible in accordance to his own perception, not the one jesus christ gave. Then what do we really go by when considering whats right and whats wrong?
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    what your saying here makes alot of sense, though I ask if lets say man wrote the bible in accordance to his own perception, not the one jesus christ gave. Then what do we really go by when considering whats right and whats wrong?
    That's another classic question. I'm a big fan of the teachings of Hillel the Sage. Hillel was dared by a skeptic to recite the entire Torah "standing on one foot" (a colloquialism like "in a nutshell"). Hillel responded "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow man. The rest is commentary, go and study it.".

    There's a teaching in Wicca that is along similar lines.

    But beyond that, we're all born with the ability to chose to do what we, personally, feel is right and what we personally feel is wrong. We don't have to sign up to a newsletter or follow everything in the Bible verbatim. Religion isn't Pokemon - you don't gotta catch 'em all. Indeed, it's technically impossible for a modern Jewish person to perform every commandment. Some require you be a man, some require you be a woman. Some can only be done in the land of Israel when there's a king from the tribe of Judah, etc, etc.

    Religion is just medium. We have to be careful not to ignore it for the Message.

    What's the message? I can't claim to know that. I think we're just supposed to be the best "us" we can be, and at the end of life we'll either find out how we did, or we'll go and turn to dust.

    Boy is it nice to have a religion without eternal damnation...
  13. #73  
    I am sure you have read this before and will read it again. Religion has some very nice ideals on how to treat your fellow human being. Too bad more dont follow that. Ulitmately, religion, god, jesus, etc etc is a simple tool humans manufactured to explain the unexplainable of the day. Made by man, with excuses by man. The first published Catch 22 was the bible or as i like to put it, a book about the rantings of a bunch of mad men.
    Do not misunderstand, I think the whole do right thing is a damn good ideal, but unatainable goal. As it is put in that and other books of there ilk, men have the freedom of choice, free will, and its the toss of coin as to whether they will go right or left of the mark.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    edit: Oh, I should mention Toby played a roll as well, but I suspect he'd been compromised prior to our debates on these very forums.
    Yes, I was married prior to the Ramble, so you obviously can't trust anything I say. Well, except that it's 'role' and not 'roll'. I don't play pastries.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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    #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    I am sure you have read this before and will read it again. Religion has some very nice ideals on how to treat your fellow human being. Too bad more dont follow that. Ulitmately, religion, god, jesus, etc etc is a simple tool humans manufactured to explain the unexplainable of the day. Made by man, with excuses by man. The first published Catch 22 was the bible or as i like to put it, a book about the rantings of a bunch of mad men.
    Do not misunderstand, I think the whole do right thing is a damn good ideal, but unatainable goal. As it is put in that and other books of there ilk, men have the freedom of choice, free will, and its the toss of coin as to whether they will go right or left of the mark.
    Not exactly a coin toss... it depends on who's turning. There's a right turn and a wrong turn, after all. Free will doesn't mean any choice is right.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Not exactly a coin toss... it depends on who's turning. There's a right turn and a wrong turn, after all. Free will doesn't mean any choice is right.
    that is very true, but at some point in your life anybody I believe can sit down and really weigh what is right and what is wrong. They can say to themselves what im doing in this paticular why is morally right or morally wrong. So yes free will does mean the choice to do whatever you want, but God wants you to use the best choice in each situation in each individuals life.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    that is very true, but at some point in your life anybody I believe can sit down and really weigh what is right and what is wrong. They can say to themselves what im doing in this paticular why is morally right or morally wrong. So yes free will does mean the choice to do whatever you want, but God wants you to use the best choice in each situation in each individuals life.
    Well, we ASSUME G-d does. We don't have a direct pipeline, so the best we can do is guess and hope.
  18. #78  
    God knew that Adam and Eve would transgress his law. His entire plan was predicated on that fact. Adam and Eve would have not had children as they were innocent like unto children not knowing good nor evil.

    If they knew no good there could be no righteousness, and if they knew know evil, there could be no sin. Thus they were doomed to be in that state forever and ever. Never being able to enjoy life. God, knowing that Adam would transgress his law, provided a way for him to repent and return to him. It is only through the fall of Adam that mankind can be.
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  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    So, assuming humanity isn't wiped out again, we can assume that the religion with the largest number of followers is closest to the actual truth about God?

    edit: or the most militant?
    That's akin to saying the largest country/most militant is the right country. How many times have we humans got behind (in majority) the wrong thing? Take for instance, the website in which we are posting...most of us would agree that the iPhone isnt the best smartphone, but it holds a majority count over webOS.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    God knew that Adam and Eve would transgress his law. His entire plan was predicated on that fact. Adam and Eve would have not had children as they were innocent like unto children not knowing good nor evil.
    Interesting. Do you have a source for this view, or is it one that is your own? I only ask because in the Torah, G-d says (paraphrasing) "Childbirth will now be difficult for you" kind of implying that it would have been easy before.

    There's nothing "impure" or evil about reproduction, after all.

    If they knew no good there could be no righteousness, and if they knew know evil, there could be no sin.
    I'd argue that. Before the eating of the fruit, there was still a law - the difference it was two simple commandments. Man could have been "righteous" by just following those two commandments.

    Thus they were doomed to be in that state forever and ever.
    Eden is a "doomed" state?

    Never being able to enjoy life.
    Yet the first commandment in the entire Bible is "enjoy all the fruits of My Garden." Surely he could enjoy, or G-d would not have commanded it.

    God, knowing that Adam would transgress his law, provided a way for him to repent and return to him. It is only through the fall of Adam that mankind can be.
    Can be... what?
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