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  1.    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Finally Pre View Post
    Many of us believe in the Bible as do I, but at many different levels. I will leave that for another time.

    There have been times when I look outside the box I have been taught and just look down at the ground and wounder. Look at an ant. Now think of this ant in a clear box with it's whole family. You can have control over the weather and life of the ant family. Now take this thought to a bigger scale. Think of God playing with us in that same box, the universe. It may be like God is playing with his army men. Maybe he just places us in a time and event and creates the situation. Then allowing our family to play it out. It may have never come down to the apple or the flood. It might be just one of those things that God had setup and wanted to see the outcome. My only question is if we have let him down. Will God just sweep his hand and erase everything off the table he is using to play this?

    Did this game come in a box? Was it a gift? and if it was, who did the gift come from?
    ..... And are we supposed to be the only beings that know of Him even though there are gazillions of other planets out there?
  2. #42  
    The Christian answer to dbd's question is that God created humans with free will and the ability to choose him vs. choosing their own willfulness. He foresaw that Adam was going to sin, so he already planned an answer for this in the form of the promised Messiah, Jesus. Noah was a foreshadowing of the Messiah, the rescuer of the human race. Just as Noah's family represented a generational "bottleneck", Jesus also represents a "bottleneck" in the sense that we can only be saved through believing in him.
  3.    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    Exactly. Evolution dictates that each generation should love God deeper....
    I believe in evolution.
    How can you say that evolution has anything to do with loving God?
    That's pretty much an oxymoron.
  4.    #44  
    I'll be back later to be more involved.
    Thank you, everybody.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Yep.
    This is my whole dilemna.
    How could i be expected to love a god that lets so many terrible things happen each and every day?
    because God gave adam a chance, and yet Eve was the one decieved he spared the both of them, instead of scraping them both. The reason why women have painfull child birth, the reason why we must prove to be worthy to him in this life to get to the next. We all have evil in our hearts, but god gives us a choice to either follow and manifest that evil, or do what is right. Nobodys perfect, and thats understandable, and god knows that, but to say God should use his almighty power, and hold our hand through it all, when he gave man a chance and he ****ed that up is blasmphomy. I know what the dark is, very intimatly too, being homeless for years, being beaten, eaten out of dumpsters. Washing up a dunkin donuts, but I dont blame god even if on everything I know it wasent my fault. I thank god for sparing me, for giving me food when I couldnt find any. For making sure the car I lived in had heat in the winter, a place to park and place to keep me peacefull through it all. How ungratefull and ignorant some of yall sound. Take the worst pain in the world that YOU can only imagine and times that by 100, thats what it really could be like but God makes sure even the unworthy gets only what he or she can handle and deserve.
    Last edited by wellwellwell11; 05/09/2010 at 02:34 PM.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Why does a parent allow a sickly child to grow? Why does an employer continue to employ people who arent 100% billable? Why does a wife continue to love a husband who was adulterous?

    Hope. Faith. Or even just an understanding that we are imperfect.

    But the question I would love to hear is why arent we better if evolution hints that we shouldve gotten better? How come we still lie, cheat, steal and kill?
    Fantastic question. My answer comes primed with my interpretation of human nature. I believe we are inherently bad, struggling a lifetime to "do what's right". Evolution implies progression. If we are intrinsically bad, we would invent new ways to express this. Has there been a time in history where humans behaved worse than the last 100 years? If the answer is yes, it surely wasn't comparable to the magnitude of our recent evil. So to answer your question, we are evolving and we are getting worse. We have new ways to cheat, new methods to kill and murder, more proficient ways to steal, etc.
  7. #47  
    So i am confused as to why so many people are seemingly mad at God, i fully support any one to have the views they wish and if that means being mad at God at least have the full understanding of his ways before you rush to judgment on them. As far as God saying he used to be angry , he wasnt angry AT man , he was angry at SIN and how it had hurt man and corrupted the initial plan he had planned for man before adam and even sinned ( committed treason) against God he had to give them a tree not to eat of , so they would have free will . If God just gave us a life of nothing wrong ( in the garden) how would he know they loved him, because they had no choice but to love him. All the times God was mad was only when they clearly blatantly disobeyed them, after he showed them how to do it. if you look at the jews in the desert after they left egypt they complained and murmered continuously agianst god and he NEVER god mad, it was only when the JEWS asked for the ten commandments , because they wanted to be rewarded for their "works". they said "all these things you ask of us we are well able to do". they were looking to be in a sense rewarded or their hard work . nothing against th jews, we all still are looking for that in this world, we want to be patted on the back. What God offers is a free gift, knowing that in these bodies that are imperfect BECAUSE of the sin of adam, he has given us a way out. this was not his original plan, adam was not born needing a savior he WAS perfect until he sinned. but now we have a way out and free will. But i fully suport anyone to choose what they want to beleive!! i just have studied many, many , many religions and found the truth to be in the Bible, NOT religion. I wish all well in their journeys to seek truth
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by boyo3221 View Post
    So i am confused as to why so many people are seemingly mad at God, i fully support any one to have the views they wish and if that means being mad at God at least have the full understanding of his ways before you rush to judgment on them. As far as God saying he used to be angry , he wasnt angry AT man , he was angry at SIN and how it had hurt man and corrupted the initial plan he had planned for man before adam and even sinned ( committed treason) against God he had to give them a tree not to eat of , so they would have free will . If God just gave us a life of nothing wrong ( in the garden) how would he know they loved him, because they had no choice but to love him. All the times God was mad was only when they clearly blatantly disobeyed them, after he showed them how to do it. if you look at the jews in the desert after they left egypt they complained and murmered continuously agianst god and he NEVER god mad, it was only when the JEWS asked for the ten commandments , because they wanted to be rewarded for their "works". they said "all these things you ask of us we are well able to do". they were looking to be in a sense rewarded or their hard work . nothing against th jews, we all still are looking for that in this world, we want to be patted on the back. What God offers is a free gift, knowing that in these bodies that are imperfect BECAUSE of the sin of adam, he has given us a way out. this was not his original plan, adam was not born needing a savior he WAS perfect until he sinned. but now we have a way out and free will. But i fully suport anyone to choose what they want to beleive!! i just have studied many, many , many religions and found the truth to be in the Bible, NOT religion. I wish all well in their journeys to seek truth
    you couldnt have said it better, and for some reason people still see the need to point the finger, instead of looking in the mirror. We all lust over our flesh, if your one of those people who walk this earth thinking you can and have done no wrong them shame on you because you have and will continue to. Yes God still loves those type of people, and even still blesses them crazy huh. Society nowadays tells us to be somebody we have to worship the mighty dollar. Get a nice car a nice house a appealing spouse, but if your neighbor asks you for help to look down on that person and push them away. I hope for the end of days, I myself have one foot in the coffin, because I see how this world is really percieved and it makes me sick. As the Ladder person said above you choose your own path, I just hope you choose to be yourself not a clone which is how God intended it.
  9.    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by boyo3221 View Post
    All God wants is a relationship. He loves all of us , but we have a free will to choose. God sent Jesus , because man was imperfect and needed a savior who would take all the blame for us and give us all the rights of God for just simply receiving this free gift. God does not send people to hell for their sins, Adam sinned and therfore tainted all mankind and therfore just as one man ruined us all....one man Jesus Saves us all, by simply just believing that we all need him and ask him to be our Lord, no rules to follow just a one time acceptance of this free gift.....very simple and religion (man) has spent 2000 years screwing it up by adding all kinds of rules and trying to punish everyone. God is Love...not a punisher.
    If He loves us, why does He let horrible "natural" disasters kill hundreds of thousands of HIS people at a time?
    What is He trying to teach us with that?
    What does "free will" have to do with that?
    Not a punisher??
    Really?
  10.    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by boyo3221 View Post
    yes there is a hell. but man does not go to hell because of his sins, but rather the non acceptance of his free gift (get out of Jail free Card ) Jesus. God says i Love you so much, and because of Adams sin you cant get in to heaven , so i have given you a free gift ( no requirements other to accept it) to get in to heaven. he takes ur sin...u take his righteousness and thus you get in and get all the benefits of Jesus. there are tons and tons of scriptures that show this. so all you have to do is beleive that Jesus died for your sins and ask him to be your Lord and Savior and its all Done. of course the more you learn about his ways the better, but the free gift of eternal life is Unconditionally FREE ...no rules to follow !!!!!!! thats why its so cool. Religion is what sucks man's attempt at control!! Faith is a relationship with a God who loves u unconditionally because of what Jesus did, not what WE do....pretty cool
    So anybody that doesn't believe in Jesus is going to Hell?
    And what about mentally ill people who don't have the mental capacity to fathom such an idea?
    I already got the answer to this in an earlier thread on this topic in this forum, but i would like to hear some other opinions.
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 05/09/2010 at 10:07 PM.
  11.    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    To the OP: God made a promise to the serpent in the Garden that He would put an enmity between the seed of Eve and the seed of the serpent which would ultimately crush the head of the serpent. God kept that promise, at least in part, by saving Noah. He also kept that promise by saving the tribes of Israel throughout the generations until the Incarnation.

    Hope that helps.
    Well, it's a start....
  12.    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Grace View Post
    The Christian answer to dbd's question is that God created humans with free will and the ability to choose him vs. choosing their own willfulness. He foresaw that Adam was going to sin, so he already planned an answer for this in the form of the promised Messiah, Jesus. Noah was a foreshadowing of the Messiah, the rescuer of the human race. Just as Noah's family represented a generational "bottleneck", Jesus also represents a "bottleneck" in the sense that we can only be saved through believing in him.
    Ok, what of the natural disasters?
  13.    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    because God gave adam a chance, and yet Eve was the one decieved he spared the both of them, instead of scraping them both. The reason why women have painfull child birth, the reason why we must prove to be worthy to him in this life to get to the next. We all have evil in our hearts, but god gives us a choice to either follow and manifest that evil, or do what is right. Nobodys perfect, and thats understandable, and god knows that, but to say God should use his almighty power, and hold our hand through it all, when he gave man a chance and he ****ed that up is blasmphomy. I know what the dark is, very intimatly too, being homeless for years, being beaten, eaten out of dumpsters. Washing up a dunkin donuts, but I dont blame god even if on everything I know it wasent my fault. I thank god for sparing me, for giving me food when I couldnt find any. For making sure the car I lived in had heat in the winter, a place to park and place to keep me peacefull through it all. How ungratefull and ignorant some of yall sound. Take the worst pain in the world that YOU can only imagine and times that by 100....
    While i'm sorry for what you have been through, and i admire your convictions, you don't know what any of us has been through, so please don't assume that everybody else is better off than you.

    It could ALWAYS be worse.
  14.    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by boyo3221 View Post
    So i am confused as to why so many people are seemingly mad at God, i fully support any one to have the views they wish and if that means being mad at God at least have the full understanding of his ways before you rush to judgment on them. As far as God saying he used to be angry , he wasnt angry AT man , he was angry at SIN and how it had hurt man and corrupted the initial plan he had planned for man before adam and even sinned ( committed treason) against God he had to give them a tree not to eat of , so they would have free will . If God just gave us a life of nothing wrong ( in the garden) how would he know they loved him, because they had no choice but to love him. All the times God was mad was only when they clearly blatantly disobeyed them, after he showed them how to do it. if you look at the jews in the desert after they left egypt they complained and murmered continuously agianst god and he NEVER god mad, it was only when the JEWS asked for the ten commandments , because they wanted to be rewarded for their "works". they said "all these things you ask of us we are well able to do". they were looking to be in a sense rewarded or their hard work . nothing against th jews, we all still are looking for that in this world, we want to be patted on the back. What God offers is a free gift, knowing that in these bodies that are imperfect BECAUSE of the sin of adam, he has given us a way out. this was not his original plan, adam was not born needing a savior he WAS perfect until he sinned. but now we have a way out and free will. But i fully suport anyone to choose what they want to beleive!! i just have studied many, many , many religions and found the truth to be in the Bible, NOT religion. I wish all well in their journeys to seek truth
    God is said to be "all knowing", right?
    If that's the case, didn't he know Adam & Eve would mess up? And so on and so on?
  15.    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Fantastic question. My answer comes primed with my interpretation of human nature. I believe we are inherently bad, struggling a lifetime to "do what's right". Evolution implies progression. If we are intrinsically bad, we would invent new ways to express this. Has there been a time in history where humans behaved worse than the last 100 years? If the answer is yes, it surely wasn't comparable to the magnitude of our recent evil. So to answer your question, we are evolving and we are getting worse. We have new ways to cheat, new methods to kill and murder, more proficient ways to steal, etc.
    I never thought of evolution in this way and i think it's an interesting viewpoint. I always thought of evolution as physical improvement to a chance of surviving a life.
    I never really thought of it being the progression of our "inherent badness".
    Hmm....
  16.    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    ......throw it out there to see if progress has been made? Maybe that's the OP's quest.
    My quest is to be able to understand why God would spare Noah knowing that the connection to sin was still there and the same "stuff" was bound to happen again anyway.

    And while we're at it, why is it said that he allows Satan to rule the world?
    What kind of love is that?
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    If He loves us, why does He let horrible "natural" disasters kill hundreds of thousands of HIS people at a time?
    What is He trying to teach us with that?
    What does "free will" have to do with that?
    Not a punisher??
    Really?
    As a wise man once told me: There are some things in life worse than death.

    Sure bad things happen (and happen to good people no less) but in the end how do you know that what is humanly "horrible" on this side of eternity isn't reconciled on the other side in a way that makes sense?
    Last edited by foosball; 05/10/2010 at 01:24 AM.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by boyo3221 View Post
    So i am confused as to why so many people are seemingly mad at God
    People who don't believe in gods aren't mad at them. Don't fall into that trap. Are you mad at Krishna?

    Quote Originally Posted by boyo3221 View Post
    this was not his original plan, adam was not born needing a savior he WAS perfect until he sinned.
    You keep ignoring this issue: the all-knowing, all-powerful god had a plan that FAILED? How is this possible? Doesn't sound all-powerful to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by boyo3221 View Post
    at least have the full understanding of his ways before you rush to judgment on them.
    I thought it was impossible to have full understanding of god's ways? You know the saying, "god works in mysterious ways"? Are you claiming to have full understanding of god's ways? I thought they called that blasphemy.

    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    but I dont blame god even if on everything I know it wasent my fault.
    Nobody is blaming or hating god in this thread (or anywhere else, really).

    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    I know what the dark is, very intimatly too, being homeless for years, being beaten, eaten out of dumpsters [...] I thank god for sparing me, for giving me food when I couldnt find any. For making sure the car I lived in had heat in the winter, a place to park and place to keep me peacefull through it all. How ungratefull and ignorant some of yall sound. Take the worst pain in the world that YOU can only imagine and times that by 100, thats what it really could be like but God makes sure even the unworthy gets only what he or she can handle and deserve.
    Your self-righteousness is disgusting and very unlike Jesus. I guess the millions of children who end up starved, raped, beaten, and otherwise neglected were "unworthy" and only got "what he or she can handle and deserve". Doesn't sound very loving to me. What if I purposefully chose only to give 2 of my (hypothetical) 4 children medical care even though I could afford all 4? What reason would I have for that? So the unfortunate 2 that lucked out would have more faith in me as a father? That's something a demon would do.

    Your past situation is unfortunate and you have my sympathy. But you'll get no bonus points with me by trying to use that as an allegorical weapon against those who do not believe as you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by wellwellwell11 View Post
    I hope for the end of days, I myself have one foot in the coffin, because I see how this world is really perceived and it makes me sick.
    The world disgusts you, so you wish for the end of days on all people? I don't mean this as a flame, but I think you have emotional wounds from your past that have yet to heal, and I don't think faith has helped out as much as you believe.
    August 2009 - January 2011. Thank god I'm no longer a Pre user!

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    #59  
    Now I don't usually reply to this kind of thread, but I was reading it and found it interesting. I have a few points to make:

    First, it would seem that many of you don't correctly understand evolution (I don't mean to condescend, but some of the terms used describing evolution were troubling). Evolution has nothing to do with improvement, progression or anything of the sort. It is directly and solely related to reproduction. All living being we currently know of have DNA which codes all of our traits. Through slight differences in a species DNA through mutation and other mechanisms, different traits occur. If these differing traits lead to a higher likelihood of reproduction (say because said trait fends off death) then the DNA with this trait can proportionally increase in the gene-pool and come to be a dominant trait. That trait does not have to be better in any way. It only has to increase chances of procreation.

    Just to clarify, I consider myself someone who believes the likelihood of a benevolent god existing is too low to be of significance. So not atheist, but not agnostic really either. I'll try to explain how I've come to this conclusion.

    So I start with the question, why should I believe god exists (specifically the omnipotent,omniscient and omnipresent god of the bible)? Well when I was a child, the answer to this was because my parents and community told me so, and they knew a lot of stuff. However, this is not a logically sound argument. There is arguably no documented physical evidence of the existence of god in today's world. However, the absence of proof for something is not proof against it. There are many such instances of things we have no evidence for or directly against. One such example is vampires (bear with me, i realize this is kind of a cooky example). I bet none of you believe vampires exist, and yet there is nothing particularly infeasible about an organism whose food is blood. And further, there are a wide range or texts who mention them and proclaim their existence. Why don't you believe in vampires? probably because if they did exist, there would be some kind evidence. As an organism with limited knowledge, every day we make judgments by weighing whatever evidence we have and ultimately, that evidence must come from observation of the world. So why should belief work differently from action? For example, there have been zero recorded and corroborated instances of spontaneous combustion in recent history. So should I carry around a fire extinguisher in case i begin to spontaneously combust? I bet you don't. So why should I base my beliefs and actions in a system that has never shown itself to be true in recent history?

    I realize the same can be said of science in many ways. There were plenty of theories which have been disproven in the past even though they were widely thought to be true. So why should i believe that any theory is true. In short, you shouldn't. You shouldn't <i>believe</i> it, you should just know that the evidence we have today puts it at at the highest likelyhood of being correct compared to other theories. Thus, its not that I believe a god doesn't exist, just that there is not enough evidence to act upon the possibility.

    Further, even if you were to believe that an all powerful god created the universe and everything in is because it is the easiest to explain explanation, it seems that it would be even harder to explain why you believe in one religions god over the other. Its not as if mainstream religions creations story's are highly sensible. My question is what is the explanation for believing in one religion rather than another (besides the fact that you were born into it)?

    I realize I welt a little off topic and this has been discussed before and I'm sorry if i offended anyone, but just wanted to get this off my chest. And that's my spheal/rant.
  20.    #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by octoberorange View Post
    People who don't believe in gods aren't mad at them. Don't fall into that trap. Are you mad at Krishna?



    You keep ignoring this issue: the all-knowing, all-powerful god had a plan that FAILED? How is this possible? Doesn't sound all-powerful to me.



    I thought it was impossible to have full understanding of god's ways? You know the saying, "god works in mysterious ways"? Are you claiming to have full understanding of god's ways? I thought they called that blasphemy.



    Nobody is blaming or hating god in this thread (or anywhere else, really).



    Your self-righteousness is disgusting and very unlike Jesus. I guess the millions of children who end up starved, raped, beaten, and otherwise neglected were "unworthy" and only got "what he or she can handle and deserve". Doesn't sound very loving to me. What if I purposefully chose only to give 2 of my (hypothetical) 4 children medical care even though I could afford all 4? What reason would I have for that? So the unfortunate 2 that lucked out would have more faith in me as a father? That's something a demon would do.

    Your past situation is unfortunate and you have my sympathy. But you'll get no bonus points with me by trying to use that as an allegorical weapon against those who do not believe as you do.



    The world disgusts you, so you wish for the end of days on all people? I don't mean this as a flame, but I think you have emotional wounds from your past that have yet to heal, and I don't think faith has helped out as much as you believe.

    VERY well said.
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