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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    I've always wondered, what if you get 72 virgins in Hell? Could we both be right?
    Some would argue that dying a virgin is a sin in and of itself!

    How many of those virgins fulfilled the requirements to not go to hell?
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    I dont for a second believe that you think I am going to paint non-Christians with that broad brush. If you want to know the criteria, then here it is:

    -Have a personal relationship with the God of the Bible
    -Repent from your sins
    -Follow that same God
    Now I'm treading on personal belief and sincerely don't intend offense. Please disregard any questions you feel are insulting. May I ask how encompassing you believe the God of the Bible is? The Qur'an's God is Abrahamatic, as is the Jews'. Also, what time frame do you have to repent? Do you get proof, as did Thomas? It says that those who do not require proof are blessed above those who do - does that imply that those who are denied proof before death are screwed?

    But addressing your first reply to my first post in this thread, you didnt address how, if evolution 'dictates' improvement, we humans are still the same imperfect beings mostly that we were as far as humans can recall.
    You appear to be asking me to respond in a non-sarcastic manner. Though difficult I will try by asking: in what way does evolution dictate improvement, and by what yardstick is it measured?

    I made a similar point in a thread awhile ago surrounding this same topic...If we imperfect beings are trying to understand what a perfect being's reasoning is for something, then why are we debating the original poster's question?
    Using that logic, why are we trying?
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  3. #23  
    All God wants is a relationship. He loves all of us , but we have a free will to choose. God sent Jesus , because man was imperfect and needed a savior who would take all the blame for us and give us all the rights of God for just simply receiving this free gift. God does not send people to hell for their sins, Adam sinned and therfore tainted all mankind and therfore just as one man ruined us all....one man Jesus Saves us all, by simply just believing that we all need him and ask him to be our Lord, no rules to follow just a one time acceptance of this free gift.....very simple and religion (man) has spent 2000 years screwing it up by adding all kinds of rules and trying to punish everyone. God is Love...not a punisher.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    Now I'm treading on personal belief and sincerely don't intend offense. Please disregard any questions you feel are insulting. May I ask how encompassing you believe the God of the Bible is? The Qur'an's God is Abrahamatic, as is the Jews'. Also, what time frame do you have to repent? Do you get proof, as did Thomas? It says that those who do not require proof are blessed above those who do - does that imply that those who are denied proof before death are screwed?
    I am not well-versed on the God of the Koran/Qur'an, but the God of the Jews is the same...minus Jesus being the Son of God/Savior. The God of the Bible encompasses everything we know.
    Repenting is like losing weight (if obese), the sooner the better. Only God knows what the appropriate time frame is, if there is just one. I'd ask Him

    Needing proof is something that usually sparks faith, not sustains it. In my understanding, proof is not denied...only not experienced. Its akin to my stepson who refuses to believe that memorizing his times tables will help him in life. One day, he will understand that on his own. The proof is already there (beginning with grades) for him to witness.

    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    You appear to be asking me to respond in a non-sarcastic manner. Though difficult I will try by asking: in what way does evolution dictate improvement, and by what yardstick is it measured?
    Exactly. Men only comprehend certain values.

    While I agree evolution exists to some extent, we dont understand what areas are to be improved or if its an improvement at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    Using that logic, why are we trying?
    Exactly (again). Questions like "why does God love me" or "Why did I get my parents and not the rich, healthy, smart ones" can NOT be answered. Why not throw it out there to see if progress has been made? Maybe that's the OP's quest.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by boyo3221 View Post
    All God wants is a relationship. He loves all of us , but we have a free will to choose. God sent Jesus , because man was imperfect and needed a savior who would take all the blame for us and give us all the rights of God for just simply receiving this free gift. God does not send people to hell for their sins, Adam sinned and therfore tainted all mankind and therfore just as one man ruined us all....one man Jesus Saves us all, by simply just believing that we all need him and ask him to be our Lord, no rules to follow just a one time acceptance of this free gift.....very simple and religion (man) has spent 2000 years screwing it up by adding all kinds of rules and trying to punish everyone. God is Love...not a punisher.
    Dangerous...spreading all of that 'Jesus is a lover only' is untrue. God is a being of love as much as wrath and jealousy. Not trying to down you, but God punishes (many, MANY Biblical references for you to look at) and saying that He doesnt is blasphemous.
  6. bugduk's Avatar
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    #26  
    Don't know if it helps, but I always thought that God needed a vehicle for his revelation; and this vehicle (or conduit) had to be on our "plane" in order for us to understand the revelation. So the revelation had to be revealed in our world. But when the antediluvian world became so corrupt that God's message would have been choked out (at least insofar as we finite beings would have been able to discern anything about it), that old world had to be destroyed, or else all of humanity would have been lost, since no human would have been able to apprehend the message of redemption. Maybe Noah himself would have been killed in that antediluvian world, and he was the last antediluvian man receptive to the message of redemption. But after Noah and his family were saved, and the promise of the rainbow was made, God knew that if He groomed the Hebrew people to be the bearers of His message, then that message would be kept alive and spread by these people. Thereafter, the Hebrews needed to be protected so that God's message, which they were bearing, would not die out. Sometimes this meant the destruction of peoples who otherwise would have destroyed the Hebrews and thereby snuffed out the flame for all time. So the Hebrews were the conduit of God's revelation, and from their stock Jesus was eventually born when the time was ripe; He was the One who was the seed of woman foretold in Genesis 3:15, who crushed the serpent's head.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    I am not well-versed on the God of the Koran/Qur'an, but the God of the Jews is the same...minus Jesus being the Son of God/Savior. The God of the Bible encompasses everything we know.
    Repenting is like losing weight (if obese), the sooner the better. Only God knows what the appropriate time frame is, if there is just one. I'd ask Him

    Needing proof is something that usually sparks faith, not sustains it. In my understanding, proof is not denied...only not experienced. Its akin to my stepson who refuses to believe that memorizing his times tables will help him in life. One day, he will understand that on his own. The proof is already there (beginning with grades) for him to witness.
    There's too much here to address while imbibing, and I had more fun being sarcastic. I'll simply state that proof requires no faith. Starting with "I think, therefore I am," we are obligated to accept that which our senses present to us as fact and progress from there. There has been no situation I've experienced where I can say without hesitation that God exists. Had He not been presented to me by others, it is quite certain I would have no concept of Him at all. Unlike an atheist, however, I do not disregard that which is not self-evident - and so I entertain the concept of God.


    Exactly. Men only comprehend certain values.

    While I agree evolution exists to some extent, we dont understand what areas are to be improved or if its an improvement at all.
    Evolution does NOT dictate 'improvement' - a bird's single lung is significantly more efficient than our own, but ours appears to be 'good enough.' Sharks don't get cancer and lobsters won't die of old age; both afflict us - and yet we thrive. Our reproductive success is evidence of evolution. If malaria had been more adaptive, the percentage of the population w/sickle cell anemia would possibly increase and biological adaptations that ultimately improve our ability to live with it would also possibly increase. Or we'd be wiped out. As the conditions stand, we are suited to success.



    Exactly (again). Questions like "why does God love me" or "Why did I get my parents and not the rich, healthy, smart ones" can NOT be answered. Why not throw it out there to see if progress has been made? Maybe that's the OP's quest.
    Then, quite frankly, he should be looking toward people much smarter than you or I who've tackled these questions and progressed our understanding. Or just decide to live with the vague uncertainty that the lack of conviction yields.

    edit: grammatical correction
    Last edited by dick-richardson; 05/08/2010 at 10:25 PM.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by bugduk View Post
    Don't know if it helps, but I always thought that God needed a vehicle for his revelation; and this vehicle (or conduit) had to be on our "plane" in order for us to understand the revelation. So the revelation had to be revealed in our world. But when the antediluvian world became so corrupt that God's message would have been choked out (at least insofar as we finite beings would have been able to discern anything about it), that old world had to be destroyed, or else all of humanity would have been lost, since no human would have been able to apprehend the message of redemption. Maybe Noah himself would have been killed in that antediluvian world, and he was the last antediluvian man receptive to the message of redemption. But after Noah and his family were saved, and the promise of the rainbow was made, God knew that if He groomed the Hebrew people to be the bearers of His message, then that message would be kept alive and spread by these people. Thereafter, the Hebrews needed to be protected so that God's message, which they were bearing, would not die out. Sometimes this meant the destruction of peoples who otherwise would have destroyed the Hebrews and thereby snuffed out the flame for all time. So the Hebrews were the conduit of God's revelation, and from their stock Jesus was eventually born when the time was ripe; He was the One who was the seed of woman foretold in Genesis 3:15, who crushed the serpent's head.
    So, assuming humanity isn't wiped out again, we can assume that the religion with the largest number of followers is closest to the actual truth about God?

    edit: or the most militant?
    Last edited by dick-richardson; 05/08/2010 at 10:31 PM.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  9. #29  
    can i eat pork, or do i pick and choose what things from the bible i'd like to keep.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by abegee View Post
    can i eat pork, or do i pick and choose what things from the bible i'd like to keep.
    Nah, this one isn't that fun. Christians get to say that the Old Testament is allegorical and that our faith comes from Jesus and is laid down in the New Testament. Jews stick to the Torah, so a lot of goofier stuff in later books is able to be disregarded. Muslims also have the option to revise the weirder stuff under the guise of enlightenment by Muhammad.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  11. #31  
    sorry bmic not since Jesus was risen, God is no longer aN angry God...Hence what the angel said I bring good tidings. we are in the dispensation of Grace now, no longer "Under Law". The greek word for Grace means "unmerited Favor" we who beleive are given so much that we dont deserve hence "amazing grace". all the ways of gods wrath are pre Jesus crucifixtion. hence when he said on the cross "why have you forsaken me" all the sins of the world past present future were being punished... hence the scripture "Christ died to sin ONCE for all" Jesus cant keep dying for our sins over and over and over. And if our repentance was able to have our sins forgiven than Jesus died for nothing, because we would be able to cleanse ourselves ( which we cant). God is NO LONGER ANGRY because , the sins of the world were punished comletely in Jesus...thats awesome
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by boyo3221 View Post
    sorry bmic not since Jesus was risen, God is no longer aN angry God...Hence what the angel said I bring good tidings. we are in the dispensation of Grace now, no longer "Under Law". The greek word for Grace means "unmerited Favor" we who beleive are given so much that we dont deserve hence "amazing grace". all the ways of gods wrath are pre Jesus crucifixtion. hence when he said on the cross "why have you forsaken me" all the sins of the world past present future were being punished... hence the scripture "Christ died to sin ONCE for all" Jesus cant keep dying for our sins over and over and over. And if our repentance was able to have our sins forgiven than Jesus died for nothing, because we would be able to cleanse ourselves ( which we cant). God is NO LONGER ANGRY because , the sins of the world were punished comletely in Jesus...thats awesome
    So there is no Hell?
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  13. #33  
    yes there is a hell. but man does not go to hell because of his sins, but rather the non acceptance of his free gift (get out of Jail free Card ) Jesus. God says i Love you so much, and because of Adams sin you cant get in to heaven , so i have given you a free gift ( no requirements other to accept it) to get in to heaven. he takes ur sin...u take his righteousness and thus you get in and get all the benefits of Jesus. there are tons and tons of scriptures that show this. so all you have to do is beleive that Jesus died for your sins and ask him to be your Lord and Savior and its all Done. of course the more you learn about his ways the better, but the free gift of eternal life is Unconditionally FREE ...no rules to follow !!!!!!! thats why its so cool. Religion is what sucks man's attempt at control!! Faith is a relationship with a God who loves u unconditionally because of what Jesus did, not what WE do....pretty cool
  14. #34  
    Wow this is a crazier story than scientology!
  15. groovy's Avatar
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    #35  
    To the OP: God made a promise to the serpent in the Garden that He would put an enmity between the seed of Eve and the seed of the serpent which would ultimately crush the head of the serpent. God kept that promise, at least in part, by saving Noah. He also kept that promise by saving the tribes of Israel throughout the generations until the Incarnation.

    Hope that helps.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by ****-richardson View Post
    allegorical
    thanks for the "enlightenment" you saved my soul, now for the Bacon and Eggs.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by boyo3221 View Post
    ...man was imperfect and needed a savior who would take all the blame for us.
    Since god made man imperfectly (he's all-powerful and all-knowing so he had to know what man would become), what does that say about god?

    Quote Originally Posted by boyo3221 View Post
    God is NO LONGER ANGRY because , the sins of the world were punished comletely in Jesus...thats awesome
    You're FINE with the fact that your god was once "angry" and committed mass genocide, but it's all okay now because he sent Jesus?

    I'm not even going to try to understand that.

    A god that has supreme power but chooses not to exercise that power and instead watches us suffer (so we can have faith) sounds less like a loving god and more like the devil.

    I need to go clear my head with some heathen activities.
    Last edited by octoberorange; 05/09/2010 at 11:48 PM. Reason: grammar fail
    August 2009 - January 2011. Thank god I'm no longer a Pre user!

  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by IcerC View Post
    Wow this is a crazier story than scientology!
    God becoming man is kinda crazy, but it's actually more of a "scandal". That He the Almighty, the Creator, would take on human form and its limitations is nothing short of the Divine becoming mortal. If that doesn't offend your sense of God's Omnipotence & Infinity, it should.

    But it also happens to be this same scandal that fulfills the covenant between God and his people.
  19.    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by octoberorange
    A god that has supreme power but chooses not to exercise that power and instead watches us suffer (so we can have faith) sounds less like a loving god .....
    Yep.
    This is my whole dilemna.
    How could i be expected to love a god that lets so many terrible things happen each and every day?
  20.    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by natefish View Post
    You asked a really good question. I believe God didn't kill Noah because his ultimate hope is that man would freely choose to love him. I guess those who were wiped out were kind of left with an ultimatum: believe or drown. The Bible makes it clear that everyone knew what Noah was doing and why he was doing it, so they had a chance to change. God created Man to have a fellowship with him, not to control him, and not to be a dictator to the world. God loves us more than we could ever fathom and that was true for Noah as well. He didn't love Noah any more than he loved everyone else, it's just that Noah was ready to follow when asked.

    Further questions?
    Yes, see my reply to octoberorange, please.
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