Page 11 of 16 FirstFirst ... 678910111213141516 LastLast
Results 201 to 220 of 313
  1. #201  
    To understand human history from God's viewpoint, it's good to keep in mind 2 Pe 3:8 that a thousand years to us is like a day to him... a metaphor, to be sure, but a good reminder of different perceptions of time. Using that arbitrary rule, just for sake of argument, recorded human history could be confined to a week. From the Creator's view, then...

    Sunday- 12 a.m., Adam created; 2 a.m. Adam sinned; 2:01 a.m. God describes his remedey (Gen 3:15) in a way that will be progressively revealed. Lets man develop his now flawed society.

    Monday- by 2:30 p.m. things are already so bad that God causes flood. Provides typical example of future final judgement/salvation through his aforementioned "seed".

    Tuesday- 1 a.m. makes promise to Abraham to use him to produce "seed"; 11 a.m. provides Law through Moses, again more typical examples through arrangement of tabernacle and priests, sacrifices, etc.; 11 p.m. promises king David that "seed" will be in his line, uses son Solomon to give typical example again of prosperous, peaceful kingdom

    Wednesday- 9 a.m. allows Jerusalem to be destroyed, captives taken to Babylon; 11 a.m. brings them back to re-establish nation and worship system; 2 p.m. close of Hebrew scriptures

    Thursday- 12 a.m. Jesus born; 1 a.m. Jesus died, fulfilling promise of Messiah and ransom; 2-3 a.m. rapid spread of news of this; 10 a.m. close of Greek scripture

    Friday- Spread of all this knowledge to entire world population through distribution of Bible. 10 p.m.- begin to see signs fulfilling prophetic period "time of the end" or "last days" mentioned by Jesus and apostles.

    I'll let the reader decide what time it is now but I think looking at it this way, through the perspective of an infinite being, it's not fair to say that God has been doing nothing. It actually seems like a very busy week of well planned activity leading up to something.
  2. #202  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    Actually, he does mention carbon dating.

    His whole story behind that is that it's circular logic. On this, I actually *do* believe him. His other ideas are mostly just interesting theories to me... but this, I believe as more than likely.

    The whole accuracy of carbon dating is off because scientists will either say that an object is x-number of years old because of (A) the layer of sediment (or whatever term you use for EARTH)... or (B) carbon-14 dating which was, at some point, based off of a layer of earth.

    So, his whole point is that people act like carbon-14 is the be-all, end-all... when nobody actually knows how carbon-14 came to be so valid.

    He has dozens of examples of objects with carbon-14 dating them x-amount of years old, but they were found in layers of earth much, much older/newer.
    I need a picture of Morbo the News Alien.

    CARBON FOURTEEN DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

    Heh.

    You don't just get to dismiss empirical data because it doesn't match what you think. You should be rethinking how maybe you mistranslated something, etc. One of the most prominent Jewish Rabbis of the last century had this to say about Carbon Dating and Jewish timekeeping (praphrasing) "So? Who says that matter is only so old? The Torah doesn't. Things were around before Adam and Chava."

    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Here's another 'Devil's Advocate' question for those of you who feel that God knew Adam would sin. This question I'm about to ask may also be something for those who feel God needed Adam to sin to accomplish his 'plan'.
    In fact, I'd also like to hear from those who say we needed sin to understand good.
    And finally, those of you who feel the suffering that has been a result of sin, as being a way to better prepare us for heaven....

    Ok, here's my question;
    Why didn't God just create us in heaven like the Angels? All this sin, pain and suffering all so we can end up in Heaven where we could of just as easily been created in the first place.
    That's an awesome question. However, it assumes "ending up in Heaven" is the end goal, or that Heaven is a set thing.

    From the Jewish perspective, you don't need sin. Sin is just choosing to violate or ignore a commandment.
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    We looked into getting a labbydoodle some years back. I hear both them and the goldydoodle are great dogs.
    Bah! Collies or nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    My last little input for the day, before my GF gets mad that Im giving the comp more attention then her!
    My wife calls the computer "the other woman".

    If in fact each of these animals did live on the ark and every other living being died from the flood, what was able to sustain life for these animals after they were released?
    How would a giraffe if all the plants died under the flood?
    How would a wolf live without giving time for the prey to reproduce enough to feed their litter? How could the prey survive if there are no plants for them to live on after they are released? So if the wolf ate the rabbit, the rabbit would be extinct, if the rabbit lived the wolf would die of hunger... (just a hypothetical situation that is not mentioned in the bible. It mentions life sustenance while on the ark but not of the extremely critical phase after.
    The sages argue this one. One was that G-d provided, somehow (the easy one). One was that the animals bred at a more rapid rate after (weird) and the most oddball one is that all the carnivores became herbivores for the duration. The one I like best is that the flood impacted the known world, and after they traveled.

    As for the herbivores, the narrative establishes with the Dov that they don't leave the ark until enough time has passed for an olive tree to germinate, grow, and sprout. Which is why I don't think the literal timeline holds in this (and other) scenarios.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    Bible's answer is simple; humans were not created to live in heaven. Earth is our permanent home. Psalm 115:16- Heavens are for God, earth is for man. Same as original purpose stated at Gen 1:28, had Adam not sinned he'd still be alive on earth.
    Well, I don't know if I'd call anything "simple".

    What is Heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by octoberorange View Post
    The difference between Octoberorange the Father and god the Father is that god the Father has ultimate universal power. I don't. And if I had ultimate universal power and still allowed my kids to go harm others in the name of freedom, I'd be a sick son of a *****. I find it wrong to give god a free pass in this regard.
    But what if your kid was harming someone, and you did do something, but not everyone saw?

    Of course free-will equals stupid choices. But a loving watchful god who chooses not to stop the madness of the few is not really a loving watchful god.
    Why do we assume loving or watchful?

    He just HOPES you'll do the right thing. Which a big difference, as some in this thread are in fact arguing in favor of a sort of Puppet Master God, whether they say that outright or not. And it's that viewpoint to which I'm arguing against.
    Does G-d hope? How do you know?

    Ultimately though, the parent-child example was very specific and it's not a perfect end-all metaphor for a god.
    But who made the metaphor? Who says it's supposed to establish the entire dynamic? We're like children before G-d in the sense that a kid has no idea what it's like to be an adult, or lacks the wisdom, but in every way? Says who?

    I think the idea of a loving god purposefully allowing a supreme-evil demon to corrupt humanity is quite over the top.
    Humanity corrupts humanity.

    I take the extreme point because some here are dancing around the issue. Of course my murderous ****** children wouldn't allow me to control them. But I'm not all-powerful like a god, who chooses NOT to protect the victims of murderous ****** nuts (in the name of free-will, I've been told). .
    Because you're assuming a puppet master interventionist G-d with this, just like others.

    Omnipotent (all-powerful) god, yes. But a loving omnipotent god? Assuming an omnipotent god exists, either god is all-powerful but doesn't care, or god is all-loving but CAN'T do anything.
    Rock so big He can't lift it. Check.

    I'm not understanding quite what this is supposed to mean in the context of god's omnipotence vs. loving qualities. The metaphor can only go so far.
    It's not an awesome metaphor because I think we lack the language to quantify G-d. Yet.

    He CAN control the bad people from hurting others, but chooses NOT to. I say this in the nicest way possible, you just argued my point for me. This isn't about free-will as a means to spiritual growth, this is about a self-proclaimed
    Where?

    loving being who condones (by lack of action) the sick things our species is capable of (don't forget, he made us this way on purpose).
    Unless there's a reason for the hands-off approach.

    , I'm very close-leaning to deism/pantheism in a philosophical way. I'm not at all opposed to a universal-force (in general terms). I just don't see the logic or understanding in certain interpretations of said universal-force. I'm not here to convert anyone, I really don't care what anyone believes in the end. But discussions like these are always fun
    Amen!
  3. #203  
    Bible says Noah was in ark for just over a year, but not that the earth was covered with water for a year. 40 day torrential rain till high mountains (of THAT time) covered- Gen 7:19. Then 150 days till they gradually receded. Gen 8:1-3. Olive treesre super resiliant- not unrealistic that some trees on high areas could endure that. As to rest of vegetation, springs back even faster. In short time, abundant life...Seen recent National Geographic on Mt St Helens area? Amazing recovery, only 30 yrs later.
  4. #204  
    Dangit, my day's so busy that I can't respond to everything I want to.

    Just wanted to say, this thread is on of the best I've ever been in on religion. Thanks to everyone.
  5. #205  
    40 days of torrential rain world wide? So much rain all the worlds lands are submerged?

    HA!
    Sprint|Samsung Epic
  6. #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    Bible says Noah was in ark for just over a year, but not that the earth was covered with water for a year. 40 day torrential rain till high mountains (of THAT time) covered- Gen 7:19. Then 150 days till they gradually receded. Gen 8:1-3. Olive treesre super resiliant- not unrealistic that some trees on high areas could endure that. As to rest of vegetation, springs back even faster. In short time, abundant life...Seen recent National Geographic on Mt St Helens area? Amazing recovery, only 30 yrs later.
    I appreciate your replies and biblical justification. I will stick with typo lad's answer as taking this not literal.
    if you look at just a giraffe, they can eat 140 lbs of food a day! Just one, could strip an olive tree down in almost a day not giving much food for other animals. But its ok... understandable plants grow back faster then animals it doesnt mention carnivores eating prey while they are weak scavenging for trace amts of vegetation.
    The Mt St Helens recovery is Very impressive! but when a catastrophe like that happens in one area the majority of animal flock to a more nutrient rich area util resources are plentiful again, unlike this story...
    But good for you if your faith (in the bible as pure truth) is that strong. It just worries me that (i dont know any better) people that take the bible that literal have a hard time looking into themselves for strength and are too trusting with others. Just hope you are as "street smart" as you are "biblical".


    PS Typo Lad Im with you on the collies!
  7. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
    #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    Bible says Noah was in ark for just over a year, but not that the earth was covered with water for a year.
    Well, at least they had plenty of meat to sustain them.... hey wait!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #208  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    To understand human history from God's viewpoint, it's good to keep in mind 2 Pe 3:8 that a thousand years to us is like a day to him... a metaphor, to be sure, but a good reminder of different perceptions of time. Using that arbitrary rule, just for sake of argument, recorded human history could be confined to a week. From the Creator's view, then...

    Sunday- 12 a.m., Adam created; 2 a.m. Adam sinned; 2:01 a.m. God describes his remedey (Gen 3:15) in a way that will be progressively revealed. Lets man develop his now flawed society.

    Monday- by 2:30 p.m. things are already so bad that God causes flood. Provides typical example of future final judgement/salvation through his aforementioned "seed".

    Tuesday- 1 a.m. makes promise to Abraham to use him to produce "seed"; 11 a.m. provides Law through Moses, again more typical examples through arrangement of tabernacle and priests, sacrifices, etc.; 11 p.m. promises king David that "seed" will be in his line, uses son Solomon to give typical example again of prosperous, peaceful kingdom

    Wednesday- 9 a.m. allows Jerusalem to be destroyed, captives taken to Babylon; 11 a.m. brings them back to re-establish nation and worship system; 2 p.m. close of Hebrew scriptures

    Thursday- 12 a.m. Jesus born; 1 a.m. Jesus died, fulfilling promise of Messiah and ransom; 2-3 a.m. rapid spread of news of this; 10 a.m. close of Greek scripture

    Friday- Spread of all this knowledge to entire world population through distribution of Bible. 10 p.m.- begin to see signs fulfilling prophetic period "time of the end" or "last days" mentioned by Jesus and apostles.

    I'll let the reader decide what time it is now but I think looking at it this way, through the perspective of an infinite being, it's not fair to say that God has been doing nothing. It actually seems like a very busy week of well planned activity leading up to something.
    I've always pictured God as reading an interactive comic book that he's creating himself with every new page. He has the ability to view the frames throughout our day, or year, or life, even.... all on one page. He can comprehend space-time in a much more effective manner than us, since, obviously... space-time didn't create itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by octoberorange View Post
    This isn't the thread to get too detailed, but, while I don't at all believe in a personal anthropomorphic deity, I'm very close-leaning to deism/pantheism in a philosophical way. I'm not at all opposed to a universal-force (in general terms). I just don't see the logic or understanding in certain interpretations of said universal-force. I'm not here to convert anyone, I really don't care what anyone believes in the end. But discussions like these are always fun
    It is fun, but I feel like most people do have some innate desire to know The Force. Some might look and not find it, so give up. Some might look their entire life, then find it. Some might not be looking at all, then it appears right smack in their face. Some might see it, but still not believe it, because they have been trained to only have faith in verifiable evidence and faith in anything less would be uncivilized.

    But I think all of us do want to know The Force. We all want to know why we're here, don't we??

    Don't scientists want to know WHY Gravity has a constant 9.8 m^2/s pull throughout the universe? Don't scientists want to know WHY we have weak forces, strong forces?? Don't scientists want to know WHY electromagnetic forces have the effect that they do??

    Scientists can always get the HOW down fairly easily, but the WHY is an issue that you'll only seen answered by a theologian, even if he's not totally correct. I have yet to hear the answer, from a scientist, as to why we exist, why matter exists, why space-time exists, why forces and energies exist, etc. Maybe such a scientist is out there, but I haven't come across him yet. Making conclusions that cannot be tested and verified is not very scientific, tho.

    God's answer for WHY he started the Big Bang is probly very similar to your own answer about why we discuss such topics...

    It's fun!!

    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    P.P.S.: Some of the first conscious humans were building pyramids and creating some crazy burial graveyard, known as Stone Hinge, and other amazing things that we cannot do today. How do you go from being monkeys to just gaining consciousness, and total understanding how everything in your world works based on the heavenly bodies in the sky, to creating pyramids and other wondrous things... to being a U.S. Citizen?? Doesn't it seem like society is DEVOLVING???
    Found the YouTube video that caused this DEVOLUTION train of thought...



    I honestly see devolution as more probable than macro-evolution. But anything's possible.
  9. #209  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    40 days of torrential rain world wide? So much rain all the worlds lands are submerged?

    HA!
    not being able to explain a miracle in itself proves nohing. The Pre in your hand wouldve been proof of your being a warlock to people 200 years ago

    A creator capable of building the universe surely could handle a deluge...melt icecaps, reduce extreme highs/lows of earth's surface and the water's already here.

    remember, the purpose was quick destruction...this is not describing a NATURAL phenomenon.
  10. #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    I appreciate your replies and biblical justification. I will stick with typo lad's answer as taking this not literal.
    if you look at just a giraffe, they can eat 140 lbs of food a day! Just one, could strip an olive tree down in almost a day not giving much food for other animals. But its ok... understandable plants grow back faster then animals it doesnt mention carnivores eating prey while they are weak scavenging for trace amts of vegetation.
    The Mt St Helens recovery is Very impressive! but when a catastrophe like that happens in one area the majority of animal flock to a more nutrient rich area util resources are plentiful again, unlike this story...
    But good for you if your faith (in the bible as pure truth) is that strong. It just worries me that (i dont know any better) people that take the bible that literal have a hard time looking into themselves for strength and are too trusting with others. Just hope you are as "street smart" as you are "biblical".
    thanks...
    I dunno about street smart...does living in NYC for 8 years count?

    obviously Noah had food on ark for animals...Why couldn't he have had enough for another month or so after the flood? Plus, the whole account involves miraculous divine intevention...surely God cared for this detail somehow as well.

    within it's context, it is all very plausible.
  11. #211  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    I've always pictured God as reading an interactive comic book that he's creating himself with every new page. He has the ability to view the frames throughout our day, or year, or life, even.... all on one page. He can comprehend space-time in a much more effective manner than us, since, obviously... space-time didn't create itself.
    Oh I like this. It appeals to the comic geek in me.


    It is fun, but I feel like most people do have some innate desire to know The Force. Some might look and not find it, so give up. Some might look their entire life, then find it. Some might not be looking at all, then it appears right smack in their face. Some might see it, but still not believe it, because they have been trained to only have faith in verifiable evidence and faith in anything less would be uncivilized.

    But I think all of us do want to know The Force. We all want to know why we're here, don't we??
    I would agree to an extent. Coming to the relationship with a First Cause can even be deciding there is none. It's all about personal resonance.


    Don't scientists want to know WHY Gravity has a constant 9.8 m^2/s pull throughout the universe? Don't scientists want to know WHY we have weak forces, strong forces?? Don't scientists want to know WHY electromagnetic forces have the effect that they do??

    Scientists can always get the HOW down fairly easily, but the WHY is an issue that you'll only seen answered by a theologian, even if he's not totally correct. I have yet to hear the answer, from a scientist, as to why we exist, why matter exists, why space-time exists, why forces and energies exist, etc. Maybe such a scientist is out there, but I haven't come across him yet. Making conclusions that cannot be tested and verified is not very scientific, tho.
    Except science doesn't try to answer the why. That's not the job of science. Science is "life is a complex system, and here's hot it works." Science does not and need not concern itself with an inherently unprovable why. That's up to each of us as individuals.

    God's answer for WHY he started the Big Bang is probly very similar to your own answer about why we discuss such topics...

    It's fun!!
    I always liked "There was nothing on TV. There was no TV."

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    not being able to explain a miracle in itself proves nohing. The Pre in your hand wouldve been proof of your being a warlock to people 200 years ago

    A creator capable of building the universe surely could handle a deluge...melt icecaps, reduce extreme highs/lows of earth's surface and the water's already here.

    remember, the purpose was quick destruction...this is not describing a NATURAL phenomenon.
    Yeah, but on the other hand, we can't say "G-d isn't interventionist" while in the same breath saying "G-d intervened".

    The easy answer is that now G-d doesn't intervene on a huge scale... but why not?
  12. #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by Typo Lad View Post
    Oh I like this. It appeals to the comic geek in me.




    I would agree to an extent. Coming to the relationship with a First Cause can even be deciding there is none. It's all about personal resonance.




    Except science doesn't try to answer the why. That's not the job of science. Science is "life is a complex system, and here's hot it works." Science does not and need not concern itself with an inherently unprovable why. That's up to each of us as individuals.



    I always liked "There was nothing on TV. There was no TV."



    Yeah, but on the other hand, we can't say "G-d isn't interventionist" while in the same breath saying "G-d intervened".

    The easy answer is that now G-d doesn't intervene on a huge scale... but why not?
    Didn't you post a bit before that maybe he is doing something, only that humans aren't seeing it?

    That's the answer from the Greek scriptures... See Mat 24 ans 25; entire book of Revelation
  13. #213  
    Well, if He's doing anything, we're not seeing it. It's not just from those sources. It's all over, and it just makes sense.

    if we can't parse G-d, how can we parse His actions?

    Doesn't mean we should stop trying. Indeed, we should try harder.
  14. #214  
    The thing about miracles (just like religious faith) is that you have to believe in it all first before any of it can be true.

    On the other hand - floods, rain and the laws of physics that control them exist whether your believe in them or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    not being able to explain a miracle in itself proves nohing. The Pre in your hand wouldve been proof of your being a warlock to people 200 years ago

    A creator capable of building the universe surely could handle a deluge...melt icecaps, reduce extreme highs/lows of earth's surface and the water's already here.

    remember, the purpose was quick destruction...this is not describing a NATURAL phenomenon.
    Sprint|Samsung Epic
  15. #215  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    The thing about miracles (just like religious faith) is that you have to believe in it all first before any of it can be true.

    On the other hand - floods, rain and the laws of physics that control them exist whether your believe in them or not.
    The footnote to that point is an acknowledgement that our understanding of the physical universe and it's laws is very limited, and probably flawed.

    preparing for my 1st physics course, I read "Asimov on Physics". Aside from being very helpful, it also convinced me that our understanding of science is anything but static. Today's scientific fact is often tomorrow's joke: see ether.

    again, an intelligent creator who originated the complex law and order that exists from micro to macro surely could manipulate them to do things that would seem impossible to an observer who didn't know the inner workings.
  16. #216  
    No one is saying we know everything there is to know about the universe.

    However I'm saying it wasn't designed by some guy who told some other guy to build a boat.
    Sprint|Samsung Epic
  17. #217  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    The thing about miracles (just like religious faith) is that you have to believe in it all first before any of it can be true.
    Oh, and to this I'd disagree; if these things ARE true and one denies them due to (insert reason) they continue to be true.
  18. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
    #218  
    And the Lord spoke to Noah and said, "In six months I'm going to make it rain until the whole earth is covered with water and all the evil people are destroyed. But I want to save a few good people, and two of every kind of living thing on the planet. I am commanding you to build an Ark." And in a flash of lightning, He delivered the specifications for an Ark, "Okay," said Noah, trembling with fear and fumbling with the blueprints.

    "Six months and it starts to rain," thundered the Lord. "You'd better have the Ark completed, or learn to swim for a very long time."

    Six months passed, the skies clouded up and rain began to fall. The Lord saw that Noah was sitting in his front yard, weeping. And there was no Ark. "Noah!" shouted the Lord, "Where is the Ark?" "Lord, please forgive me!" begged Noah. "I did my best. But there were big problems. First, I had to get a building permit for the Ark construction project, and your plans didn't meet code. I had to hire an engineer to redraw the plans. Then I got into a big fight over whether or not the Ark needed a fire sprinkler system.

    "Then my neighbor objected, claiming I was violating zoning by building the Ark in my front yard. I had to get a variance from the city planning commission. Then I had problems getting enough wood for the Ark, because there was a ban on cutting trees to save the spotted owl. I had to convince the US Fish and Wildlife that I needed the wood to save the owls. But they wouldn't let me catch any owls. So, no owls.

    "The carpenters formed a union and went out on strike. I had to negotiate a settlement with the National Labor Relations Board before anyone would pick up a saw or hammer. Now we have sixteen carpenters going on the boat, and still no owls. Then I started gathering up animals, and got sued by an animal rights group. They objected to me taking only two of each kind.

    "Just when I got that suit dismissed, the EPA notified me that I couldn't complete the Ark without filing an environmental impact statement on your proposed flood. They didn't take kindly to the idea that they had no jurisdiction over the conduct of a Supreme Being. Then the Army Corps of Engineers wanted a map of the proposed new flood plain. So I sent them a globe. Right now, I'm still trying to resolve a complaint from the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission over how many Croatians I'm supposed to hire.

    "The IRS has seized all my assets, claiming I'm trying to avoid paying taxes by leaving the country. And I just got a notice from the state about owing them some kind of use tax. I really don't think I can finish the Ark for at least another five years," Noah wailed.

    The sky began to clear. The sun began to shine. A rainbow arched across the sky. Noah looked up and smiled, "You mean you're not going to destroy the earth?" Noah asked hopefully. "No," said the Lord sadly, "The government already has!"
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    thanks...
    I dunno about street smart...does living in NYC for 8 years count?
    I think the fact that you just had to ask that... I'd say no. Sorry!
    haha
    gotta keep these things lighthearted sometimes.
    And do me a favor and stay out of the hoods, sometimes its hard for God to find people there!
  20. #220  
    As to Noah, and Adam, being actual historical persons... 1 Chronicles chapters 1 through 9 and Luke chapter three both list them in a very detailed genealogy that includes many persons that are confirmed by extra-biblical history. Rejecting them raises the problem of deciding (arbitrarily?) where the reality begins?

    I read recently something that mentioned how Darwin, before forming his theories on evolution, was greatly frustrated about the existence of God, due to a profound grief over the death of his daughter, along with a long standing distaste for the dogma of a fiery Hell.

    The majority of religious thought is a great catalyst for athiesm... or at least not liking the idea of God.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions