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  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by fubka View Post
    Yeah, if you fail at basic science skills and knowledge. The guy things the earth was once covered in a layer of ice in the sky because... its in the bible. I thinks fossils can be carbon dated...

    When I was in college, we would watch clips of him for laughs, I guess some people don't get how much of an ***** he is.
    I didn't know the name till now but... wow.

    That's the sort of idiotic literalism that gives Faith a bad name (that, and trying to replace Buffy).
  2.    #182  
    Quote Originally Posted by boyo3221 View Post
    Im gonna put in my last statement, cause while many in here are having great questions and debates, there are still some tools in here that feel they have to disrespect the views of others. see my tag and look at the responses. i spoke with politeness and the openess to say i respect everyones views to have their own opinion, but to resort to name calling , shows your lack of intelligent thought. So i will summarize, if you honestly are searching out the truth i beleive you will find the answer in Jesus, if not thats ok too, i would never force anyone to believe what i believe, just want to give answers to people who generally have questions. While i may have alot of knoweledge of the bible, i am smart enough to know i can't MAKE YOU Believe. That is ok too, that is whats great about our country, but because you are an unbelieving person, doesnt mean you can call others names, because we believe different. Trust me when, you are on your deathbed, i hope you are confident with your choice, i am. God Bless
    It would really be great if you could stay. You've had some very well thought-out input and it would be nice to hear some more from you.
    Try to ignore the people that offend you.
  3. fubka's Avatar
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    #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    We have one species of human and over 250,000 different species of beetle. This seems like an odd choice for god.
    YEC Super Evolution = 1 "kind" of beetle to 250,000 species in 4,000 years
  4. #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by fubka View Post
    YEC Super Evolution = 1 "kind" of beetle to 250,000 species in 4,000 years
    Funny, but irrelevant. Many thousands of different, fossilized beetles have been found and dated back to the earliest known human fossils (about 4 million years ago).
  5. #185  
    Gen chpt 11 answers the language question. Science agrees on a common human ancestor...there's really no significant genetic difference in race. The flood just moved that common ancestor forward... Biblical reckoning of chronology would put it at about 2370 B.C.E. It isn't so hard to fathom developing large physical differences in that time frame... Just think of what is done with dog breeds, which surely anyone would agree had a common ancestor. Many modern "breeds" are actually quite new (relatively).
  6. #186  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Does Hovind mention anything about carbon dating? Many christians have told me the earth is approximately 7,000 years old (interestingly, about 7,000 years ago, the sumarians invented glue), yet carbon dating proves, to those who accept scientific theory, that this is at best a silly notion. Also, how does Hovind address evolution? We have one species of human and over 250,000 different species of beetle. This seems like an odd choice for god.
    Actually, he does mention carbon dating.

    His whole story behind that is that it's circular logic. On this, I actually *do* believe him. His other ideas are mostly just interesting theories to me... but this, I believe as more than likely.

    The whole accuracy of carbon dating is off because scientists will either say that an object is x-number of years old because of (A) the layer of sediment (or whatever term you use for EARTH)... or (B) carbon-14 dating which was, at some point, based off of a layer of earth.

    So, his whole point is that people act like carbon-14 is the be-all, end-all... when nobody actually knows how carbon-14 came to be so valid.

    He has dozens of examples of objects with carbon-14 dating them x-amount of years old, but they were found in layers of earth much, much older/newer.

    This isn't something I planned to jump into today, but I assure you that Hovind has some ideas that actually are far more than plausible. And, no, I'm not a Hovind follower/believer. Like I said... he provides a very, very good brain teaser. There's no one quite like the enigma known as Kent Hovind.
  7. #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonesey View Post
    It isn't so hard to fathom developing large physical differences in that time frame... Just think of what is done with dog breeds, which surely anyone would agree had a common ancestor. Many modern "breeds" are actually quite new (relatively).
    No, it isn't so hard to fathom at all, really.

    I just saw a Labradoodle the other day!! Craziest thing ever. Maybe this is just new to me, tho??

    I used to think that "the detail of each human's eye" was proof of God's existence, once upon a time. Then my buddy suggested that light-sensitive organs evolved with the insects who possibly only have a lifespan of a few hours.

    Nobody has seen macro-evolution take place. The closest thing we have to a "monkey-fish-frog" is the platypus, and I'm not really sure what science/evolution has to say about that.
  8. #188  
    Here's another 'Devil's Advocate' question for those of you who feel that God knew Adam would sin. This question I'm about to ask may also be something for those who feel God needed Adam to sin to accomplish his 'plan'.
    In fact, I'd also like to hear from those who say we needed sin to understand good.
    And finally, those of you who feel the suffering that has been a result of sin, as being a way to better prepare us for heaven....

    Ok, here's my question;
    Why didn't God just create us in heaven like the Angels? All this sin, pain and suffering all so we can end up in Heaven where we could of just as easily been created in the first place.
  9. #189  
    We looked into getting a labbydoodle some years back. I hear both them and the goldydoodle are great dogs.
  10. #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    Actually, he does mention carbon dating.

    His whole story behind that is that it's circular logic. On this, I actually *do* believe him. His other ideas are mostly just interesting theories to me... but this, I believe as more than likely.

    The whole accuracy of carbon dating is off because scientists will either say that an object is x-number of years old because of (A) the layer of sediment (or whatever term you use for EARTH)... or (B) carbon-14 dating which was, at some point, based off of a layer of earth.

    So, his whole point is that people act like carbon-14 is the be-all, end-all... when nobody actually knows how carbon-14 came to be so valid.

    He has dozens of examples of objects with carbon-14 dating them x-amount of years old, but they were found in layers of earth much, much older/newer.

    This isn't something I planned to jump into today, but I assure you that Hovind has some ideas that actually are far more than plausible. And, no, I'm not a Hovind follower/believer. Like I said... he provides a very, very good brain teaser. There's no one quite like the enigma known as Kent Hovind.
    Hovinds examples of objects of a certain date found in layers of earch much older or younger is invalid. Carbon dating is only useful when determining the age of something that was once living. So layers of silt, sediment, rock, sand, etc. cannot be accurately dated unless there is a separate organic compound within the layer. And this does present issues of accuracy, my dog can bury a bone 3 feet deep.

    Carbon 14 dating is extremely accurate because carbon has been proven to radiate and deplete at a specific and linear rate (the process does not slow down or speed up over time). This process is a benchmark in the scientific community. In other words, when a fossil is dated by one laboratory using an empiric method based in reproducible math, there are no rival factions that claim the opposite (a hallmark of organized religion).

    So when a fossil is proven to be 80 million years old, and the bible says the earth is 7,000 years old, somethings obviously not right. Hovind might need more ammo -- suppositions and plausibilities are not going to unseat empirical science.
  11. #191  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    No, it isn't so hard to fathom at all, really.

    I just saw a Labradoodle the other day!! Craziest thing ever. Maybe this is just new to me, tho??

    I used to think that "the detail of each human's eye" was proof of God's existence, once upon a time. Then my buddy suggested that light-sensitive organs evolved with the insects who possibly only have a lifespan of a few hours.

    Nobody has seen macro-evolution take place. The closest thing we have to a "monkey-fish-frog" is the platypus, and I'm not really sure what science/evolution has to say about that.
    My last little input for the day, before my GF gets mad that Im giving the comp more attention then her!
    If in fact each of these animals did live on the ark and every other living being died from the flood, what was able to sustain life for these animals after they were released?
    How would a giraffe if all the plants died under the flood?
    How would a wolf live without giving time for the prey to reproduce enough to feed their litter? How could the prey survive if there are no plants for them to live on after they are released? So if the wolf ate the rabbit, the rabbit would be extinct, if the rabbit lived the wolf would die of hunger... (just a hypothetical situation that is not mentioned in the bible. It mentions life sustenance while on the ark but not of the extremely critical phase after... Talk to you all tomorrow to respond more... just didnt want to lose that thought...
  12. #192  
    Thank you DBD , i will stick around for you...lol seriously thank you for the nice comment.

    ok as for carbon dating. the earth is Definietly older than 7000 years. here is my view. again just my belief. in Genesis it talks about the earth being formed , but does not specify time. The Bible says that Darkness covered the face of the deep. No other time in the Bible did God create anything out of darkness, darkness is always symbollic of the result of a judgement. so this would say what was the judgement that caused god to cover the earth in darkness. when we read into the psalms and other books it describes lucifer as sitting on the throne and how his "lust" for power and money caused him to say " i will exalt my throne above his" paraphrase. so the belief goes that there was a race of "being" not human beings could be ( cavemen) as we have fossils. and we have proof dinosaurs were here and they would have eaten adam and eve etc. so there are many many scriptures on this and just google "pre adamic" civilization. it is fascinating. do i know this to be 100 percent correct NO, do i believe it is correct YES. but again God does not clearly lay it out, as it is not crucial for our "walk" with God. I am sure this will get some responses...so please keep them constructive. I am not saying you have to agree with me on anything
  13. chacalau's Avatar
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    #193  
    Personally I can't shake the feeling that God 'exists' like a Circle 'exists'.

    Q: When was the last time you saw a Circle?
    A: Never. It's not possible.

    However, there is a great deal written about Circles, describing them, and their properties.

    The difference though is that while we can absolutely confirm that it is NOT possible for a physical Circle to exist, I (me) would say that it IS possible that God DOES exist.

    So, in our lifetimes, there are only TWO real Philosophical questions...

    Q1. Is life worth living? (this keeps you alive!)
    Q2. is it POSSIBLE that God does NOT exist?

    Would anyone answer 'No' to either Question?

    Note! Q2 is a different question than "Is it possible that God DOES exist?"
  14. #194  
    Why didn't God just create us in heaven like the Angels?
    Bible's answer is simple; humans were not created to live in heaven. Earth is our permanent home. Psalm 115:16- Heavens are for God, earth is for man. Same as original purpose stated at Gen 1:28, had Adam not sinned he'd still be alive on earth.
  15. fubka's Avatar
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    #195  
    Quote Originally Posted by grndslm View Post
    The whole accuracy of carbon dating is off because scientists will either say that an object is x-number of years old because of (A) the layer of sediment (or whatever term you use for EARTH)... or (B) carbon-14 dating which was, at some point, based off of a layer of earth.

    So, his whole point is that people act like carbon-14 is the be-all, end-all... when nobody actually knows how carbon-14 came to be so valid.

    He has dozens of examples of objects with carbon-14 dating them x-amount of years old, but they were found in layers of earth much, much older/newer.
    Again, thanks for showing your lack of knowledge on the subject, and how you let the felon Hovin purposeful mislead you.

    Carbon 14 dating is only good for about 30,000 years because of we know the half life is 5,73040. Hovin points out organism which obtain Carbon that is not directly within the carbon cycle, organism living in the water, or who eat lots of aquatic organisms vs terrestrial plants and animals. Carbon is water tends to stay in the water and not returned into the atmosphere. Science knows this as fact, this not a problem. NOBODY would try and carbon date a sea snail. He then misleads you by using these examples and tries to apply this logic to fossils. Creationists, FOSSILS DO NOT CONTAIN CARBON. That is why they are called carbon. You still "*believe*" this lying thief?
  16. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    God isn't a puppet master (imo), and allows his children to make mistakes. You could be the best father in the world, but nothing you can do short of removing their freedom will keep them away from doing something wrong if they really want to do it.
    The difference between Octoberorange the Father and god the Father is that god the Father has ultimate universal power. I don't. And if I had ultimate universal power and still allowed my kids to go harm others in the name of freedom, I'd be a sick son of a *****. I find it wrong to give god a free pass in this regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    Show me the parent of the murderer who teaches their child to murder, or allows them to murder. Sometimes being free means being free to choose something stupid or outright evil.
    Of course free-will equals stupid choices. But a loving watchful god who chooses not to stop the madness of the few is not really a loving watchful god. He just HOPES you'll do the right thing. Which a big difference, as some in this thread are in fact arguing in favor of a sort of Puppet Master God, whether they say that outright or not. And it's that viewpoint to which I'm arguing against.

    Ultimately though, the parent-child example was very specific and it's not a perfect end-all metaphor for a god.

    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    First and foremost, just because one is "free to choose", doesn't mean they are free from consequence.
    I am in total agreement. If I implied that is how I thought, it wasn't my intention.

    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    Your arguement that we should allow cops to let serial rapists roam towns to test the civilians faith is a bit over the top.
    I think the idea of a loving god purposefully allowing a supreme-evil demon to corrupt humanity is quite over the top. So I used a crazy counterexample

    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypre View Post
    Also, I think people give the devil too much credit. I think that certain people can do evil things without prompting.


    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    I love how you take the extreme point, but as others have already pointed out, you dont control your kids. Not to flame you, but if they did turn out to be killers, do you think they would ALLOW you to control them? Funny...
    I take the extreme point because some here are dancing around the issue. Of course my murderous ****** children wouldn't allow me to control them. But I'm not all-powerful like a god, who chooses NOT to protect the victims of murderous ****** nuts (in the name of free-will, I've been told). Funny...

    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Anyways, yes...an omnipotent God allows these things to happen, including us to choose evil ways.
    Omnipotent (all-powerful) god, yes. But a loving omnipotent god? Assuming an omnipotent god exists, either god is all-powerful but doesn't care, or god is all-loving but CAN'T do anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    But since you started a nice extreme example, I would be remiss to drop the buck...Why do you need a cop to stop serial rapists or killers? And if your example hints at a lack of higher authority, then who says a cop is going to stop said evil?
    I'm not understanding quite what this is supposed to mean in the context of god's omnipotence vs. loving qualities. The metaphor can only go so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMIC50 View Post
    Basic point that was hit on earlier is that God CAN control us.
    He CAN control the bad people from hurting others, but chooses NOT to. I say this in the nicest way possible, you just argued my point for me. This isn't about free-will as a means to spiritual growth, this is about a self-proclaimed loving being who condones (by lack of action) the sick things our species is capable of (don't forget, he made us this way on purpose). Another extreme example: there's an innocent person about to get murdered. A random dude has the absolute no-questions-asked means to protect this person, but he chooses not to (his reason is irrelevant). Without getting too convoluted regarding this example, you can NOT tell me that this person acted morally.

    ...

    This isn't the thread to get too detailed, but, while I don't at all believe in a personal anthropomorphic deity, I'm very close-leaning to deism/pantheism in a philosophical way. I'm not at all opposed to a universal-force (in general terms). I just don't see the logic or understanding in certain interpretations of said universal-force. I'm not here to convert anyone, I really don't care what anyone believes in the end. But discussions like these are always fun

    So can we all go to a cheap bar, get plastered, and go shave some cats or something to cool off?
    Pogey and BMIC, here's to you
    August 2009 - January 2011. Thank god I'm no longer a Pre user!

  17. #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Here's another 'Devil's Advocate' question for those of you who feel that God knew Adam would sin. This question I'm about to ask may also be something for those who feel God needed Adam to sin to accomplish his 'plan'.
    In fact, I'd also like to hear from those who say we needed sin to understand good.
    And finally, those of you who feel the suffering that has been a result of sin, as being a way to better prepare us for heaven....

    Ok, here's my question;
    Why didn't God just create us in heaven like the Angels? All this sin, pain and suffering all so we can end up in Heaven where we could of just as easily been created in the first place.
    I only have two basic points for you...

    1) I'm not sure if it's a great idea to be asking questions about why God didn't do something before or after anything. I think St. Aquinas proposed that God lives in a higher dimension, above, or at least, outside of time!!

    God could very well have a plan that He is able to alter time in a way that we could not imagine.

    2) Don't honestly remember point #2, but why didn't God just make us all angels in Heaven? I dunno. But, I know that life has been pretty awesome. "Today is a good day to die" is all I know.

    I think that The Architect did what He did because allowing 100 billion humans and all the other living beings in our universe (multiverse?) that He paints out of thin space and time... allows us to discover the divinity that is inherent to our soul, that we are all Children of God... and it allows some to harness this great power within them, but why not add in freewill to keep the painting from getting so black and white... let's add some color!!, while continuing to alter space-time in the background as He sees fit so that we may understand, recognize, realize something that we ought to. That would seem like the biggest orgazzm of all history right there... a Big Bang, if I've ever imagined one. WHEW.

    There's no limit to God, is there?

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Hovinds examples of objects of a certain date found in layers of earch much older or younger is invalid. Carbon dating is only useful when determining the age of something that was once living. So layers of silt, sediment, rock, sand, etc. cannot be accurately dated unless there is a separate organic compound within the layer. And this does present issues of accuracy, my dog can bury a bone 3 feet deep.

    Carbon 14 dating is extremely accurate because carbon has been proven to radiate and deplete at a specific and linear rate (the process does not slow down or speed up over time). This process is a benchmark in the scientific community. In other words, when a fossil is dated by one laboratory using an empiric method based in reproducible math, there are no rival factions that claim the opposite (a hallmark of organized religion).

    So when a fossil is proven to be 80 million years old, and the bible says the earth is 7,000 years old, somethings obviously not right. Hovind might need more ammo -- suppositions and plausibilities are not going to unseat empirical science.
    You're more than likely correct, but I do believe that he had some pretty good ammo from the one show I was forwarded. I'm sure you could find some Google recommended hits, like "why carbon dating is wrong, flawed, inaccurate, false"... and dig up something you've never seen before. But maybe not. Maybe you've analyzed the discovery & history of carbon dating for 2 and a half years and did a thesis paper on it. I have no idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    My last little input for the day, before my GF gets mad that Im giving the comp more attention then her!
    If in fact each of these animals did live on the ark and every other living being died from the flood, what was able to sustain life for these animals after they were released?
    How would a giraffe if all the plants died under the flood?
    How would a wolf live without giving time for the prey to reproduce enough to feed their litter? How could the prey survive if there are no plants for them to live on after they are released? So if the wolf ate the rabbit, the rabbit would be extinct, if the rabbit lived the wolf would die of hunger... (just a hypothetical situation that is not mentioned in the bible. It mentions life sustenance while on the ark but not of the extremely critical phase after... Talk to you all tomorrow to respond more... just didnt want to lose that thought...
    How does natural selection work to begin with?? I feel as if the magnitude in which mutations would be necessary to just randomly create new species that magically adapt to their surroundings is a bit much. There's something supreme, above even Natural Law, and that's Divine Law.

    The "heavenly bodies" that float in the universe did not create themselves. They will keep on floating until Our Architect decides whatever it is that He decides.

    If God wanted to wash away the sins of the earth, but decided that He liked the spirit or the way that a few animals looked... why the F^&C shouldn't He be allowed to favor those and keep them around for the Remix version?

    Quote Originally Posted by fubka View Post
    Again, thanks for showing your lack of knowledge on the subject, and how you let the felon Hovin purposeful mislead you.

    Carbon 14 dating is only good for about 30,000 years because of we know the half life is 5,73040. Hovin points out organism which obtain Carbon that is not directly within the carbon cycle, organism living in the water, or who eat lots of aquatic organisms vs terrestrial plants and animals. Carbon is water tends to stay in the water and not returned into the atmosphere. Science knows this as fact, this not a problem. NOBODY would try and carbon date a sea snail. He then misleads you by using these examples and tries to apply this logic to fossils. Creationists, FOSSILS DO NOT CONTAIN CARBON. That is why they are called carbon. You still "*believe*" this lying thief?
    Prove it. I can have Google recommend "why carbon dating is wrong, flawed, inaccurate, false" any day, so there's my answer on the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by octoberorange View Post
    So can we all go to a cheap bar, get plastered, and go shave some cats or something to cool off?
    Pogey and BMIC, here's to you
    AMEN!!



    I just think that you're missing the whole point of everything, tho... Orange. You can't put God inside a box, because he can transform the box. He is the essence of the existence of the box. If there were a box, to ever have existed... it would have had to have been painted by the Creator of Creation. It would have HAD to of... because no matter, energy, force, or whatever can create itself. That's science, isn't it?

    And on the issue of Jesus. I was never really a believer until recently, when I stumbled onto catholic.com forums and started asking questions about history. Things actually started to sound feasible, even after reading all the "contradictions in the bible" hits found by Mr. Google (well, not all, but the most shocking & important ones to me). Too confusing to talk about here... but there is A TON of history surrounding Jesus. And it seems like everybody since the time of Jesus has been talking about Jesus. Somehow, he just knew he was The One and decided to change the world. He was nothing like people had seen before, and he CHANGED THE WAY PEOPLE LIVED FOREVER. I'd even say he could be credited with taking down the Roman Empire. And he influenced Gandhi. He influenced a lot of Jews to start a new Church of Jewish-Christianity, where Jesus' "brother" (most likely first cousin) was head of the church. He influenced Thomas to head to Africa and start the Ebionites. There were the Nazarene Christians. There were all the places that Paul and Peter went on missionaries and wrote letters to, etc. Jesus told them to spread The Word, and they did it. Eventually, tho... they realized that Jesus wasn't returning any time soon. Well, since Paul had the hookup, he eventually got some intelligent folks who could actually write!! As C. S. Lewis states, there's just too much evidence to say that he's a myth. Continuing on, Jesus influenced more than just the Jews... he influenced Mohammed, who creates Islam, and seems to think that Jesus & his whole clique were alright, but Jesus said it best himself when he said to look straight to the Father... even if he didn't recognize Jesus' divinity. Not sure I do either, but have you seen "The Real Face of Jesus"?? (hint: bittorrent) Seems awfully convincing to me when all the scientists discuss their findings of the Shroud of Turin.

    Or is Divine Law just not possible??

    And God is bound by Natural Law in that He couldn't take on a man's body to understand why some people just couldn't understand the Ten Commandments. They're so simple. It's a simple little list, like the Bill of Rights... but they still don't understand how to live. Ahh... it's simple... now is the time for me to fulfill the prophecy of prophecies, that the people have been chanting for, and somehow I'll be able to spit out this mad message of love that I've been tryin' to spit out.

    Ya know... or whatever.

    Anything's possible.

    P.S.: I highly recommend that you find the torrent for The Real Face of Jesus and watch the good parts. Pretty crazy stuff.

    P.P.S.: Some of the first conscious humans were building pyramids and creating some crazy burial graveyard, known as Stone Hinge, and other amazing things that we cannot do today. How do you go from being monkeys to just gaining consciousness, and total understanding how everything in your world works based on the heavenly bodies in the sky, to creating pyramids and other wondrous things... to being a U.S. Citizen?? Doesn't it seem like society is DEVOLVING???
  18.    #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by boyo3221 View Post
    Thank you DBD , i will stick around for you...lol seriously thank you for the nice comment.
    LoL, wow, i wasn't sure if that would work, lol, thanks!

    PS: If that had failed, my next course of action would've been to send you a $5 money order.
  19. #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by octoberorange
    Assuming an omnipotent god exists, either god is all-powerful but doesn't care, or god is all-loving but CAN'T do anything.
    Surely you would add a possible third option? That he is both loving and omnipotent but has chosen till now to allow the condition for reasons you are not aware of?

    Quote Originally Posted by octoberorange
    This isn't about free-will as a means to spiritual growth, this is about a self-proclaimed loving being who condones (by lack of action) the sick things our species is capable of (don't forget, he made us this way on purpose).
    Allowing the condition is not the same as condoning it, and certainly not the same as being responsible for it. The idea that he made us "this way" on purpose, if referring to the current imperfect condition that leads toward bad behavior the way water always flows downhill... That idea is not in agreement with the Bible. Humans were created perfectly with the gift of free will. Misuse of free will brought the consequences that God warned them of... but it was their choice.

    Most religious thought is based on the warped idea that human suffering and salvation is the most important issue to be resolved in the universe. A little egotistical. Certainly it is of great importance... but an issue of greater importance would explain why the secondary issue's solution was postponed. Plausible?
    Last edited by Jonesey; 05/12/2010 at 05:56 AM.
  20.    #200  
    [QUOTE=Jonesey;2447612][quote=octoberorange] Assuming an omnipotent god exists, either god is all-powerful but doesn't care, or god is all-loving but CAN'T do anything.[quote]

    Surely you would add a possible third option? That he is both loving and omnipotent but has chosen till now to allow the condition for reasons you are not aware of?

    [quote=octoberorange]This isn't about free-will as a means to spiritual growth, this is about a self-proclaimed loving being who condones (by lack of action) the sick things our species is capable of (don't forget, he made us this way on purpose).

    Allowing the condition is not the same as condoning it, and certainly not the same as being responsible for it. The idea that he made us "this way" on purpose, if referring to the current imperfect condition that leads toward bad behavior the way water always flows downhill... That idea is not in agreement with the Bible. Humans were created perfectly with the gift of free will. Misuse of free will brought the consequences that God warned them of... but it was their choice.

    Most religious thought is based on the warped idea that human suffering and salvation is the most important issue to be resolved in the universe. A little egotistical. Certainly it is of great importance... but an issue of greater importance would explain why the secondary issue's solution was postponed. Plausible?
    The ending "quote" tag has to be: [ /quot e ] but without the spaces i put in there.
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