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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    no you're ASSUMING they entered the country illegally, then you're harassing them for identification, which is prejudice...
    You guys are the only ones implying the cops will be hassling people for no reason for papers. The ink hasn't even dried yet on the law. You don't think incidents like that won't be challenged in court in an arizona second? I bet defense lawyers will be hanging out in the same 7-11 parking lot.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by mcmaster48 View Post
    Such as what, according to the legal definitions of probable cause outlined in this new law?
    The new law doesn't define probable cause.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    The new law doesn't define probable cause.
    Without due process,this law is unenforceable.
  4. #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    No, you're wrong. There are other indicators besides skin color and catching them crossing the border.
    pretty please with a cherry on top tell me what they are...


    See, you Micael, a white male i presume (i hope), are totally ignorant to how disproportionately minorities encounter "legal contact" with law enforcement simply because they aren't white. Not all white males are as ignorant yourself, but I understand this ignorance comes from a lack of experience. You're probably one of those people who believes that if you do no wrong no trouble will come to you. And I get that, because as a white man, thats how your life has been. As a black man, who does right, I know that to be FALSE. Please don't be so naive to think that this terribly vague legislature is anything more than a pass for police to harass anyone with brown skin because they MIGHT be an illegal alien.
  5. Micael's Avatar
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    #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    pretty please with a cherry on top tell me what they are...


    See, you Micael, a white male i presume (i hope), are totally ignorant
    why would you assume that I'm white, why is that relevant, and why would being white make me ignorant, if I were?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    why would you assume that I'm white, why is that relevant, and why would being white make me ignorant, if I were?
    firstly, it was irresponsible of you to take my text out of context; you could have at least quoted the entire sentence. I hope you read my entire post. I said YOU Micael, are totally ignorant when it comes to the issue of minorities coming into prejudice contact with the law. I DID NOT imply that white's are an ignorant people, as you would suggest.

    i DID NOT say that being white makes you ignorant. I said that if you were white, i would understand your ignorance with regards to this matter because your experiences with the law would be totally different from a minorities experience with the law.

    I also said that i hope you are white, because if you were a minority, you'd have no excuse for being so ignorant. Not that ignorance is "excusable" but there are factors that would make you more susceptible to it (being sheltered or privileged for example). I encourage people of all races to educate themselves on both sides of the issue to minimize ignorance in the discussion. To suggest that your race, and your life as a person of that race has no effect on your views or is irrelevant to the discussion would also be an ignorant statement.

    I think I realize that your attempt to paint me as the potential racist was done to divert attention away from the question at hand. I'll ask again:

    What other indicators besides "skin color and catching them crossing the border" can AZ use as "probable cause" to question someone's legal residence?
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 04/29/2010 at 11:17 AM.
  7. #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    You guys are the only ones implying the cops will be hassling people for no reason for papers. The ink hasn't even dried yet on the law. You don't think incidents like that won't be challenged in court in an arizona second? I bet defense lawyers will be hanging out in the same 7-11 parking lot.
    This isn't an assumption. These people are already harassed as it is...Now there's an added burden.
  8. Micael's Avatar
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    #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    i didn't say that being white makes you ignorant. I said that if you were white, i would understand your ignorance because your experiences with the law would be totally different from a minorities experience with the law.
    This is an assumption. it so happens that I've had run ins with the law based on stereotyping. it wasn't racial, but that doesn't matter. they beat the crap out of me and trumped up charges to get me to dismiss mine.

    And that's just one experience.

    You know absolutely nothing about me. Honestly, I get a bit tired with the white apologists wringing their hands and inferring that all whites are ignorant or racist or insensitive to race. Profiling is profiling, and race and skin color is just ONE type.

    Now I know I'll hear flack about how I'm being ignorant and insensitive to the plight of blacks. I'm not, but go ahead.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by Mhunterjr View Post
    This isn't an assumption. These people are already harassed as it is...Now there's an added burden.
    What added burden? The fact that they have to show they're legal when they've been pulled over for speeding and don't have a drivers license?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    The new law doesn't define probable cause.
    Or maybe I should have asked, how is this law enforceable without definitions of probable cause where a person's citizenship status is concerned?
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    #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by mcmaster48 View Post
    Or maybe I should have asked, how is this law enforceable without definitions of probable cause where a person's citizenship status is concerned?
    Probable cause is a legal term, in and of itself, as I understand it. It doesn't need to be redefined in each and every law that invokes it.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    This is an assumption. it so happens that I've had run ins with the law based on stereotyping. it wasn't racial, but that doesn't matter. they beat the crap out of me and trumped up charges to get me to dismiss mine.

    And that's just one experience.

    You know absolutely nothing about me. Honestly, I get a bit tired with the white apologists wringing their hands and inferring that all whites are ignorant or racist or insensitive to race. Profiling is profiling, and race and skin color is just ONE type.

    Now I know I'll hear flack about how I'm being ignorant and insensitive to the plight of blacks. I'm not, but go ahead.

    No it is not an assumption. It is a sociological fact. Even if you're personal experience as a white person is similar to that of a typical minority, the truth of the matter (backed by years of statistical data, and sociological experiments) is that there is a strong correlation between being a minority and being mistreated by law enforcement. Your case doesn't change the FACT that Whites are more likely to be ignorant when it comes to the interaction between police and minorities. And you are right, I know nothing about you, but your comments have said a lot about yourself. You ARE ignorant when it comes to this matter. And i never said all whites are racist or insensitive, and i didn't suggest you were either.

    and your right profiling in general is wrong, but this AZ law is one of racial profiling. So if your so against it, you should be against all faces of it.
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 04/29/2010 at 11:30 AM.
  13. #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    What added burden? The fact that they have to show they're legal when they've been pulled over for speeding and don't have a drivers license?
    what about when they are pulled over for being Mexican on a Friday?

    You just don't get it Micael. Minorities are disproportionately more likely to encounter law enforcement whether they are doing something wrong or not! This is a FACT. This is why people are upset. You continue to insist that the only people who "lawfully encounter" police are those who were breaking a law... once again proving your ignorance with the matter.


    How many white people do you think speed in AZ? How many will forget their licence on the day they get cited for speeding? What percentage of those people do you think will be asked to prove their legal residency.
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 04/29/2010 at 11:33 AM.
  14. #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Probable cause is a legal term, in and of itself, as I understand it. It doesn't need to be redefined in each and every law that invokes it.
    Good luck explaining that fantasy when you have cases in court.
  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    yup but my banks didnt need bailing out... lolol and the only real illegal aliens we have a problem with is them darn capitalist right wing nut jobs coming up here to hide their billions and trying to convert us to their system of belief, the almighty dollar. lol, oh and to take advantage of our universal health care.
    Well, we are you guys-es "filthy Mexicans"...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
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    #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by mcmaster48 View Post
    Good luck explaining that fantasy when you have cases in court.
    So, you'll be right there beside me proving how the war on Iraq was illegal, right?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    No, you're wrong. There are other indicators besides skin color and catching them crossing the border.
    Examples?
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  18. #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    You guys are the only ones implying the cops will be hassling people for no reason for papers. The ink hasn't even dried yet on the law. You don't think incidents like that won't be challenged in court in an arizona second? I bet defense lawyers will be hanging out in the same 7-11 parking lot.
    Actually, it has been signed into law by the governor. I would say the ink is pretty dry...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
  19. #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So, you'll be right there beside me proving how the war on Iraq was illegal, right?
    Only I'll have plenty of company.
  20. Micael's Avatar
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    #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Actually, it has been signed into law by the governor. I would say the ink is pretty dry...
    Hold on to your hat! There's already challenges lining up at the courthouses as we type
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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