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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    NathanS. You're confusing me. On one hand you want to go after companies and enforce laws. On the other hand you don't want to also enforce laws against the illegal aliens? We can pick and choose?
    I think you are confusing yourself. I never said I wanted to go after any company,.
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS View Post
    I think you are confusing yourself. I never said I wanted to go after any company,.
    Ahh, so you're ok with companies that break the law and hire illegal aliens?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm sorry, I don't buy this argument that's often used that illegal aliens are simply fulfilling jobs that American's don't want to do. First of all, thats just plain false. It's about the wage, not the job. It is true that the illegal workforce has driven the wages down to a level that makes those jobs unattractive to those of us that have to pay taxes.
    It is a bit of a Catch-22.....if the illegals don't fill these jobs, then employers would likely have to pay more to attract others to fill the jobs. Now that could be good for those getting the jobs...but maybe prices have to go up? Who knows....but bottom line....I agree....the illegal, and probably even the legal immigrant workforce, has driven the wages down.

    Can someone please explain, again, why some are for illegals working here? That is the part I can't quite figure out. The key word being "illegal".
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  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrett92C View Post
    It doesn't matter how important you think they are. They still exist and are enforced. Ignoring laws doesn't make them go away lol
    So if I write on a piece of paper than all people with yellow shoes should be executed and post it in my hall of records in my basement that codifies it as law?

    You are kidding yourself if you don't think perception, enforcement, and obvious interpretations of right and wrong are 99.9% of the law.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ahh, so you're ok with companies that break the law and hire illegal aliens?
    Absolutely. I prefer to shop at them rather than support entrenched xenophobic interest that claim they have the right to say who can and can't enter this country.

    Your argument hinges on no law ever being wrong, when there are thousands if not millions of cases where it was or is clearly the case.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by sracercelica View Post
    Where do most people get the idea that illegals don't pay taxes?? Like I have stated before, my wife is here illegally (brought as a child), and she sent out a $2,500.00 check to uncle sam this month.
    I'm not up on all this stuff either....but does she have a SSN? If you are here illegally, do you have a real SSN? If your wife doesn't have a SSN, how does she files taxes? Again....just asking these questions to learn.
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    It is a bit of a Catch-22.....if the illegals don't fill these jobs, then employers would likely have to pay more to attract others to fill the jobs. Now that could be good for those getting the jobs...but maybe prices have to go up? Who knows....but bottom line....I agree....the illegal, and probably even the legal immigrant workforce, has driven the wages down.

    Can someone please explain, again, why some are for illegals working here? That is the part I can't quite figure out. The key word being "illegal".
    Yes. Prices would have to go up.

    But the up side to that is more would have jobs to earn income to spend to drive other prices down....

    Kind of like dropping a stone in a pond; here'd be ripples, some big at first, but after a bit the surface would be calm again.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS View Post
    Absolutely. I prefer to shop at them rather than support entrenched xenophobic interest that claim they have the right to say who can and can't enter this country.

    Your argument hinges on no law ever being wrong, when there are thousands if not millions of cases where it was or is clearly the case.
    Ok. I can respect that. Tell me, what laws should we enforce? Why even have laws?

    And who gets to choose which laws get ignored, and which ones get enforced?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    It is a bit of a Catch-22.....if the illegals don't fill these jobs, then employers would likely have to pay more to attract others to fill the jobs. Now that could be good for those getting the jobs...but maybe prices have to go up? Who knows....but bottom line....I agree....the illegal, and probably even the legal immigrant workforce, has driven the wages down.

    Can someone please explain, again, why some are for illegals working here? That is the part I can't quite figure out. The key word being "illegal".
    Not only a catch-22 but also basic economy 101. If business have to pay more they will charge more. That is why so many jobs are also being outsourced, I believe cheap labor is a necessary evil in a capitalistic society.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    No....I'm not confusing the issue at all, you and others simply disagree with the other position. As I stated yesterday....if there is a serial killer running around who is a white male, middle 40s, dark hair, and slim....guess what?.....I might...and likely should get stopped. Would it be annoying? You bet....but if I'm innocent and cooperate it shouldn't be that big of a deal. If that makes me a racist, then so be it. Now....if law enforcement starts to break down the doors of everyone, and they don't look like the person in question, then I would say they have crossed the line.

    Just like if a guy who appears to be from the Middle East is getting on a plane, I don't care if that person gets questioned.....I really don't. Is there a case to be made that certain people from the Middle East want to blow up planes and kill innocent people? I think so. It's a shame that the actions of a few have caused us to react in this manner....but....I believe that would save lives. Would you have been bummed if law enforcement had stopped the 911 bombers and questioned them and discovered they were planning something big? It sounds like crime is getting so bad in certain states that some innocent people might have to be questioned. Yes it sucks, for sure, but that is what happens when laws are continually broken by certain groups. If I was here illegally, and I knew there was a strong chance that I might get approached by law enforcement....I just might decide it's not worth it to stay here. If you are here legally, then hey, you should be just fine.
    There are 47 million Hispanics who make up 15% of the population. They are not all on your plane. And there is not "one serial killer" running around one area. If they were looking for a particular criminal who had just enacted a crime, that would be one thing. This law is totally non-selective. All you need is dark skin to be stopped and asked. They have been trying to say that that won't happen unless you have already broken the law for something else, but that's not the case (they already had the ability to do that).

    What percent of Hispanics do you think "continually break laws"?
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ok. I can respect that. Tell me, what laws should we enforce? Why even have laws?

    And who gets to choose which laws get ignored, and which ones get enforced?
    Actions that do not violate the natural rights of others. Life, liberty, property.

    Everyone already chooses. How many people follow the speed limit?
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I'm not up on all this stuff either....but does she have a SSN? If you are here illegally, do you have a real SSN? If your wife doesn't have a SSN, how does she files taxes? Again....just asking these questions to learn.
    I am a citizen so yes I have an SSN. She does not, but she has an ITIN. A number provided by the IRS for the purpose of filing taxes. Uncle Sam doesn't care who is paying money as long as they are paying!
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    There are 47 million Hispanics who make up 15% of the population. They are not all on your plane. And there is not "one serial killer" running around one area. If they were looking for a particular criminal who had just enacted a crime, that would be one thing. This law is totally non-selective. All you need is dark skin to be stopped and asked. They have been trying to say that that won't happen unless you have already broken the law for something else, but that's not the case (they already had the ability to do that).

    What percent of Hispanics do you think "continually break laws"?
    The only law I would really be concerned with is whether they are here illegally.....what percent are here illegally?....I would have no idea and won't guess. I have heard it is quite a high number, but perhaps that is wrong. It's my understanding that most people don't mind people coming to our country and taking the proper steps to be here legally....but most people do have a problem with people being here illegally.

    You like to ask questions....but are you saying that you are in favor of us opening the borders so that everyone is welcome and that they are eligible to all benefits that a citizen is eligible for? I'm sure you are in favor of us paying for the healthcare for anyone who steps foot into our country but that simply can't be done. So please explain what you....President Davidra....would ask Congress to do regarding the illegals in this country.
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  14.    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by sracercelica View Post
    I am a citizen so yes I have an SSN. She does not, but she has an ITIN. A number provided by the IRS for the purpose of filing taxes. Uncle Sam doesn't care who is paying money as long as they are paying!
    yes, we pay taxes with a tax I'd number!
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by sracercelica View Post
    I am a citizen so yes I have an SSN. She does not, but she has an ITIN. A number provided by the IRS for the purpose of filing taxes. Uncle Sam doesn't care who is paying money as long as they are paying!
    Okay...so that is cool....an ITIN number....what does that give that person? This ITIN number and are you saying that everyone that is here illegally has an ITIN number?
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS View Post
    Actions that do not violate the natural rights of others. Life, liberty, property.

    Everyone already chooses. How many people follow the speed limit?
    So, what do we do with the illegal aliens that break in to houses along the border for clothes, loose change, and food so they can continue traveling north? If they are illegally taking a job away from me, shouldn't that apply? How about the increases in taxes that are imposed on me to support them?

    Speaking of driving the speed limit; I was driving my motorcycle in National City, CA back in 1982 and got hit head on by an illegal alien who was drunk and driving his cousins 1964 Chevy Impala. It almost killed me, destroyed my bike, and destroyed his cousin's car. He simply got deported the next day with a hangover. Didn't cost him a dime, but cost me plenty. That's ok with you too I guess?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post

    You like to ask questions....but are you saying that you are in favor of us opening the borders so that everyone is welcome and that they are eligible to all benefits that a citizen is eligible for? I'm sure you are in favor of us paying for the healthcare for anyone who steps foot into our country but that simply can't be done. So please explain what you....President Davidra....would ask Congress to do regarding the illegals in this country.
    I said nothing of the sort, and this thread hasn't addressed that issue at all. The law that was passed is what is the issue, and to me it's blatantly racist and politically expedient precisely because of the large numbers of racists in Arizona. Micael may say it isn't racist....but it is. Targeting people for investigation who have not committed a crime based on the color of their skin is racist, IMHO.
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by SISGO View Post
    yes, we pay taxes with a tax I'd number!
    Only those that aren't being paid in cash.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Okay...so that is cool....an ITIN number....what does that give that person? This ITIN number and are you saying that everyone that is here illegally has an ITIN number?
    all the ITIN is for is to pay taxes, anyone can get an ITIN number. It offers no benefits at all. A study found that the majority of illegals have an ITIN and pay taxes with the hope that this will one day will make it easier to adjust their status. Also, because an ITIN is used, most tax credits can not be claimed.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post

    Speaking of driving the speed limit; I was driving my motorcycle in National City, CA back in 1982 and got hit head on by an illegal alien who was drunk and driving his cousins 1964 Chevy Impala. It almost killed me, destroyed my bike, and destroyed his cousin's car. He simply got deported the next day with a hangover. Didn't cost him a dime, but cost me plenty. That's ok with you too I guess?
    So the fact that it was an illegal made it worse for you? Are you really sure that's what you think? If it had just been a drunk Mexican-American, it would have been just fine with you?
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