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  1. wjclint's Avatar
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    #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    Actually, yes. I believe it would be perfectly reasonable for a police officer to ask every individual hanging around the outside of a 7-11 at 6am...especially if that officer just saw a bunch of those people piling into the back of a truck that pulled up.
    I think you missed the point. In your hypothetical of loitering individuals outside a 7-11 at 6am what is the "reasonable suspicion [that] exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States"?
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  2. thornev's Avatar
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    #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    However, it's not our official language, so your statement is really your personal preference of the way you'd like the US to be, and not any actual statement of fact or law.
    I disagree. The fact that English has been taught in educational systems since the 13 colonies is fact enough that English is the official language. thorne
  3. wjclint's Avatar
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    #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by thornev View Post
    My point is that I want to be able to communicate with the landscaper, with the sales guy at the local 7-11, with the bus driver, with the garage attendant, etc. I can't do that if they don't learn English. thorne
    Then back to my original question (or maybe I just missed your answer) - are you just expressing a personal preference or are you suggesting that law and policy should be tailored to promote or even dictate the use of the English language by the sales guy at the local 7-11?
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  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by wjclint View Post
    I think you missed the point. In your hypothetical of loitering individuals outside a 7-11 at 6am what is the "reasonable suspicion [that] exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States"?
    I think it's having a last name that ends in "z". Sounds perfectly reasonable.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  5. thornev's Avatar
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    #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by wjclint View Post
    Then back to my original question (or maybe I just missed your answer) - are you just expressing a personal preference or are you suggesting that law and policy should be tailored to promote or even dictate the use of the English language by the sales guy at the local 7-11?
    I have clearly stated my point in my posts on this subject. I am not proposing legislation. I suppose I am proposing that US residents should learn English if they don't know it already. Maybe that requirement should be part of becoming an American citizen. thorne
    Last edited by thornev; 04/28/2010 at 02:52 PM.
  6. wjclint's Avatar
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    #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by thornev View Post
    I am not proposing legislation. . . . . Maybe that requirement should be part of becoming an American citizen. thorne
    How exactly are we going to make speaking English be a requirement of becoming an American citizen without legislation?

    And I assume you are only talking about naturalized citizens or are you suggesting that every child born in America, or child of American citizen parent(s), has to take a test at some point proving they know English? And since no one is born with the ability to speak English we now have to pick either 1) you lose your citizenship status if you can't speak English by a certain age, or 2) no one can be a citizen until they pass an English test.
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  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    You do realize, of course, that Miranda rights were also granted to the Shoe Bomber during the Bush administration, right? And that Zacarias Moussaoui, the 20th hijacker, was tried in a civilian court? I don't recall anyone complaining then.....strange.

    Constitutional rights to anyone in the borders of the US is a very long-standing legal precedent, and didn't start on Jan 20, 2009, despite Fox News.
    I'M COMPLAINING and I know i'm not alone! I disagree with both circumstances. Would-be terroriest/enemy combatants should be waterboarded to near death and squeezed of any and all information and then fed to sharks. If they're muslim extremists, force feed them bacon and bathe them in pigs blood. Hey, they're willing to behead us in the name of jihad. Anyway, this is getting off topic.
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yep. Only difference is they could actually keep slaves, instead of wanting to. Oh, and then there's that little thing about Jefferson and his feelings about the separation of church and state. Oh, and some people think Paine had a lot to do with the constitution, too, and he was also opposed to religion being involved in the government. Oh, and the "all men are created equal" business in the Declaration. Wonder if they included "illegal aliens"?
    And don't forget that radical rightwinger Madison and his minor contributions to the Bill of Rights.
  9. #129  
    you guys sound like idiots. We ar wasting soooo many tax payers money and time tryin to stop illegals. That's like tryin to stop air from entering our lungs or tryin to stop drugs. It's never EVER going to happen. So all of ur knowledge and "i love america" speeches are pointless. How about focusing our attention on sumthin more useful like education?? Or tryin to save detroit from it's craphole neighborhoods!!
  10. Tedcas's Avatar
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    #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by MP715 View Post
    First of all the Onion spouts nothing but drivel. Secondly We can thank the liberals for extending constitutional rights to illegals and enemy combatants. Just like we provided miranda and rights to that wacko Detroit underwear bomber and bringing KSM to stand trial in a civilian court in New York. What a slap in the face to New Yorkers eh? I'm sickened by the direction this country is going.
    First of all, The Onion spouts nothing but satire, a far cry from drivel.
    Secondly, we can thank long established case law, supported by Anton Scalia and every other Conservative justice for extending Constutional protections to non-citizens in the US and it's territories.
    When I see & hear regurgitated Right Wing talking points, it sickens me.
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by MP715 View Post
    I'M COMPLAINING and I know i'm not alone! I disagree with both circumstances. Would-be terroriest/enemy combatants should be waterboarded to near death and squeezed of any and all information and then fed to sharks. If they're muslim extremists, force feed them bacon and bathe them in pigs blood. Hey, they're willing to behead us in the name of jihad. Anyway, this is getting off topic.
    Yet you opened the door with thanks from a mod.

    This is the American way to effectively treat those guilty of crime? That's your point?
  12. thornev's Avatar
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    #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by wjclint View Post
    How exactly are we going to make speaking English be a requirement of becoming an American citizen without legislation?

    And I assume you are only talking about naturalized citizens or are you suggesting that every child born in America, or child of American citizen parent(s), has to take a test at some point proving they know English? And since no one is born with the ability to speak English we now have to pick either 1) you lose your citizenship status if you can't speak English by a certain age, or 2) no one can be a citizen until they pass an English test.
    Thanks for that glimpse into why Congress has such a hard time getting any legislation done.

    I'll try to simplify: if you're born in the US and use the educational system, you have to learn English. If you're not born in the US but want to live in the US, you have to learn English. Where such rules would have to be documented, and what tests of English speaking ability would be required, I don't know. I would have to research but don't care to go that far. I'm an armchair politician, not a real politician ! =:-) thorne
  13. Tedcas's Avatar
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    #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by MP715 View Post
    I'M COMPLAINING and I know i'm not alone! I disagree with both circumstances. Would-be terroriest/enemy combatants should be waterboarded to near death and squeezed of any and all information and then fed to sharks. If they're muslim extremists, force feed them bacon and bathe them in pigs blood. Hey, they're willing to behead us in the name of jihad. Anyway, this is getting off topic.
    Oh, Black Jack Pershing didn't do any of that pig blood nonsense either.
    http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.asp
  14. Micael's Avatar
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    #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by mcmaster48 View Post
    Yet you opened the door with thanks from a mod.
    I thanked him for posting his opinion. It wasn't an endorsement. I can't thank people now without getting called out for it?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. Micael's Avatar
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    #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    How do you determine a "would-be" terrorist? Their skin color? I guarantee, however, the minute you waterboard them, in angry and sense of revenge, they, their family, and their friends will all work to bring you down. Thus, none of this stuff the US has done over the last 9 years has made us any safer.

    If we do all that to muslim extremists, what should we do to the Christian ones like Tim McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, and the Hutarree?
    Whatever they'd hate the most, I'd expect. Just kidding! We're a civilized nation, after all....

    (Hey zelgo, good to see you! Been awhile )
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    I understand that some people don't like that people enter the US without the right papers, but we benefit alot as a country from their cheap labor. All the crappy jobs that no one else wants are filled by the undocumented. We, as a country, can afford more because they are here.

    I don't want to pay $5 for a tomato.
    This might be the argument that most disappoints me. There are some obvious benefits from illegal immigration, but the consequences are far worse -- depending on where you live.

    In Texas our number one export to Mexico is money. Most illegal aliens take cash under the table and mail most of their earnings to their families. So we miss out on federal taxes and sales taxes.

    92% of emergency room visits by Mexican immigrants (without documentation) are for non-emergent reasons (i.e. free health care).

    Two-thirds (DOT estimate) of illegal aliens drive in Texas without car insurance. When they are involved in an accident, they take off on foot. If their injuries prevent an escape, they go to the hospital, for free.

    1 in 5 incarcerated felons in Texas are illegal aliens.

    Illegal aliens in Texas are entitled to unemployment dollars, disability benefits, welfare, WIC assistance, etc. without providing a social security number.

    And this list could go on and on. The point is this: Yes, illegal aliens do jobs most Americans wont do. But they do those jobs without documentation. So they receive social services in the form of healthcare, education, housing, welfare, etc., etc. immediately that legal immigrants and other Americans having been paying for since they were old enough to work.

    And yes, I'd rather pay more for strawberries and tomatoes than watch tens of thousands of illegal aliens stream across the Texas border every year while other immigrants wait patiently to enter our country legally. I get it, they want a better life, but there is a right and a wrong way do pursue it.
  17. Micael's Avatar
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    #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    I don't want to pay $5 for a tomato.
    I got an idea. How bout we get them documented AND pay them better? Oh wait, then they'd be the same as the LEGAL immigrants and some of them might vote Republican..... sorry... bad idea.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    This might be the argument that most disappoints me. There are some obvious benefits from illegal immigration, but the consequences are far worse -- depending on where you live.

    In Texas our number one export to Mexico is money. Most illegal aliens take cash under the table and mail most of their earnings to their families. So we miss out on federal taxes and sales taxes.

    92% of emergency room visits by Mexican immigrants (without documentation) are for non-emergent reasons (i.e. free health care).

    Two-thirds (DOT estimate) of illegal aliens drive in Texas without car insurance. When they are involved in an accident, they take off on foot. If their injuries prevent an escape, they go to the hospital, for free.

    1 in 5 incarcerated felons in Texas are illegal aliens.

    Illegal aliens in Texas are entitled to unemployment dollars, disability benefits, welfare, WIC assistance, etc. without providing a social security number.

    And this list could go on and on. The point is this: Yes, illegal aliens do jobs most Americans wont do. But they do those jobs without documentation. So they receive social services in the form of healthcare, education, housing, welfare, etc., etc. immediately that legal immigrants and other Americans having been paying for since they were old enough to work.

    And yes, I'd rather pay more for strawberries and tomatoes than watch tens of thousands of illegal aliens stream across the Texas border every year while other immigrants wait patiently to enter our country legally. I get it, they want a better life, but there is a right and a wrong way do pursue it.
    Given that people agree with your premise, that's not what the thread is about. It's about the specific law. Is this the best way to deal with the problems you raise?

    Not surprisingly, some heavy hitter republicans are opposed to this specific bill: Lindsey Graham, Jeb Bush, and Marco Rubio. I would be surprised if W favored it, in fact. Dump the law and let's deal with the problem, but a racist politically expedient law doesn't solve your problems at all.

    As Jon Stewart noted, even Tom Tancredo thought this law went too far....and "he's the one Mexican families use to get their children to eat their dinners".
    Last edited by davidra; 04/28/2010 at 05:59 PM.
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I got an idea. How bout we get them documented AND pay them better? Oh wait, then they'd be the same as the LEGAL immigrants and some of them might vote Republican..... sorry... bad idea.

    Nope. They'd be way too smart for that.
  20. #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I got an idea. How bout we get them documented AND pay them better? Oh wait, then they'd be the same as the LEGAL immigrants and some of them might vote Republican..... sorry... bad idea.
    It would most likely end up with them forming unions and voting democrat!!!
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
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