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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Let's turn that around - when you can show that asking for identification from someone who has broken the law is a racist act, I'll agree that we'll need to revisit that law and rewrite it.

    The problem is that that is not what the law says. Arizona has already been able to do just that, and is charged by the federal government to do that. If so, why would they need a new law enabling them to do what they already can do? Answer: This is not what the law requires.
  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Not ID's. Papers. And would you like to bet that the percentage of whites asked for their papers will be significantly less than the percentage of whites in Arizona?
    There has to be probable cause. I have no issue with immigrants having to provide proof that they're legal.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    There has to be probable cause. I have no issue with immigrants having to provide proof that they're legal.
    One man's "probable cause" is another's harassment. Do you have an issue with non-immigrants having to provide proof they are legal? And how will you tell the difference between US-born Hispanics and immigrant Hispanics? By their papers? Or are you psychic?
  4. #44  
    I support this movement. I can clearly say I am not racist, there are some plus sides on this topic, for one it will cut down on crime, uninsured drivers and cost out of the tax payers dollars if one of those unisured illegal immigrants is injured and then sent back to mexico, oh and how about the numourous amout of illegals packing up and shipping out to new mexico or other states because they are at conistant risk of being deported, but on the other hand people of the opposite side say it will tank arizonas economy due to the illegal immigrants working for half the price of people compared to whom are here legally. I know the Untited States is the land of the immigrants but we are here legally, why can't they make the procative effort to be a legal immigrant?
  5. Micael's Avatar
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    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    One man's "probable cause" is another's harassment. Do you have an issue with non-immigrants having to provide proof they are legal? And how will you tell the difference between US-born Hispanics and immigrant Hispanics? By their papers? Or are you psychic?
    davidra, I'm certainly not saying that legal immigrants, or hispanic americans, cannot file charges of harrassment against the cops. I've experienced police profiling and harrassment myself. And no I'm not psychic. Why so snarky?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    That's not actually true. The law has, time and time again, been defined that anyone in the US falls under the protection of the Constitution. That's why you give due process to criminals who are not citizens.

    This may help you.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    davidra, I'm certainly not saying that legal immigrants, or hispanic americans, cannot file charges of harrassment against the cops. I've experienced police profiling and harrassment myself. And no I'm not psychic. Why so snarky?
    But that's my problem with the law. It does not protect legal immigrants, or Hispanic Americans, from being targeted by cops without any evidence of lawbreaking. And to avoid the harassment charges, all the police have to say is "I had probable cause. I suspected by the shoes he was wearing that he was illegal. And no court in Arizona is going to ring that one up in favor of the plaintiff.That's why it needs to be found unconstitutional, if for no other reason that from what I hear, states are not allowed to develop their own immigration laws; that is the purview of the federal government. I have no idea if that is true, but some people seem pretty sure about that.
    Again, do not confuse problems with this specific law with a desire to do nothing about immigration, or sealing borders, or anything like that. It's the law that is the problem.
  8. #48  
    It's those darn shoes....

    John McCain has no reason to fear illegal immigrants "intentionally causing accidents on the freeway" -- according to Rep. Brian Bilbray (R-Calif.), "trained professionals" can identify undocumented workers just by looking at their clothes.

    Discussing Arizona's pending profiling bill on "Hardball," Chris Matthews challenged Bilbray to cite a "non-ethnic aspect" by which law enforcement agents could identify illegal immigrants. "They will look at the kind of dress you wear, there is different type of attire, there is different type of -- right down to the shoes, right down to the clothes," Bilbray replied.

    Of course, law enforcement wouldn't detain people based solely on clothing, Bilbray said. They also know to look out for the ways in which illegal immigrants just act illegal.

    "It's mostly behavior, just as the law enforcement people here in Washington, D.C. does it based on certain criminal activity," he told Matthews. "There is behavior things that professionals are trained in across the board, and this group shouldn't be exempt from those observations as much as anybody else [sic throughout]."
    Brian Bilbray, GOP Rep., Claims Clothes Identify Illegal Immigrants
  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    But that's my problem with the law. It does not protect legal immigrants, or Hispanic Americans, from being targeted by cops without any evidence of lawbreaking. And to avoid the harassment charges, all the police have to say is "I had probable cause. I suspected by the shoes he was wearing that he was illegal. And no court in Arizona is going to ring that one up in favor of the plaintiff.That's why it needs to be found unconstitutional, if for no other reason that from what I hear, states are not allowed to develop their own immigration laws; that is the purview of the federal government. I have no idea if that is true, but some people seem pretty sure about that.
    Again, do not confuse problems with this specific law with a desire to do nothing about immigration, or sealing borders, or anything like that. It's the law that is the problem.
    And what of the federal law that it essentially mimics that was already in place? Again, no expert here, and I'm just going on what I've heard or able to sift from all of the hype around the issue, but I'd heard that the feds have actually sued county and local officials in Arizona for asking for documentation from aliens they had arrested for other crimes, and then deporting them. The reason? Not their jurisdiction. While that's probably correct, it still leaves state and local officials with their hands tied.

    You seem to be resistant to the removal of illegals from the country. While I agree that deporting isn't a comprehensive solution by any stretch, someone has to do it. If the feds don't, who then?

    (to reiterate, I'm for going after the companies that hire illegals - moreso than chasing those poor people)
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    And what of the federal law that it essentially mimics that was already in place? Again, no expert here, and I'm just going on what I've heard or able to sift from all of the hype around the issue, but I'd heard that the feds have actually sued county and local officials in Arizona for asking for documentation from aliens they had arrested for other crimes, and then deporting them. The reason? Not their jurisdiction. While that's probably correct, it still leaves state and local officials with their hands tied.

    You seem to be resistant to the removal of illegals from the country. While I agree that deporting isn't a comprehensive solution by any stretch, someone has to do it. If the feds don't, who then?

    (to reiterate, I'm for going after the companies that hire illegals - moreso than chasing those poor people)
    I certainly agree with targeting people who hire illegals. Again, I haven't said one word about deportation. Obviously I am restricted to listening to talking points. When there is a topic I know a lot about, I am willing to argue about it. But with regard to this law, it's as if people are looking at different words on the page. According to a democratic house member I heard yesterday, the Feds have allowed Arizona law enforcement for many years to arrest persons who have committed a crime and found to be illegals, and to turn them over to the INS, effectively making them INS agents. In other words, according to her, Az law enforcement already has the ability to do what they say this law does. The only difference is that now they do NOT have to have committed a crime; all that is needed is probable cause. If true, that is, in my opinion, un-American. Obviously, if that is not the case, and the law simply allows them to do what they were already able to do, then why was it passed?
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Great article! Btw, the Constitution doesn't contain the words "due process" or "criminals".
    OK, but that doesn't change the fact that the 5th Amendment does address due process, and my response was that the law clearly states that the Constitution doesn't pertain to just citizens.
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  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Let's turn that around - when you can show that asking for identification from someone who has broken the law is a racist act, I'll agree that we'll need to revisit that law and rewrite it.
    The point that many seem to be missing is that the police are required to ask for paper to anyone that they suspect of being an illegal alien, regardless of if they've broken the law.

    If the law simply stated that anyone arrested is subject to an immigration check, there would be far less concern. It's the guy who is minding his own business while "looking Mexican" that is the issue.

    where do you get that whites don't have to show thier id's?
    Well, it's much less likely that a white guy will be approached by a cop for displaying illegal Canadian behaviors that it is that an Hispanic will be approached for seeming to be an illegal Mexican.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The point that many seem to be missing is that the police are required to ask for paper to anyone that they suspect of being an illegal alien, regardless of if they've broken the law.

    If the law simply stated that anyone arrested is subject to an immigration check, there would be far less concern. It's the guy who is minding his own business while "looking Mexican" that is the issue.



    Well, it's much less likely that a white guy will be approached by a cop for displaying illegal Canadian behaviors that it is that an Hispanic will be approached for seeming to be an illegal Mexican.
    that is what I keep saying! If the law simply said "all people stopped by police will be required to show papers" then that would make it a fair law.
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    #54  
    I'm a LEGAL immigrant and I support this law.
  15.    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by SISGO View Post
    well what about the people like me that is allready in ?
    If you are in the USA illegally then you should leave!
    The United states Government needs to enforce the laws that are in place and punish any employer that hires illegal residents.
    No work = self deportation with exception of those that are here for illegal activities and they will get caught eventually.
  16. Micael's Avatar
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I certainly agree with targeting people who hire illegals. Again, I haven't said one word about deportation. Obviously I am restricted to listening to talking points. When there is a topic I know a lot about, I am willing to argue about it. But with regard to this law, it's as if people are looking at different words on the page. According to a democratic house member I heard yesterday, the Feds have allowed Arizona law enforcement for many years to arrest persons who have committed a crime and found to be illegals, and to turn them over to the INS, effectively making them INS agents. In other words, according to her, Az law enforcement already has the ability to do what they say this law does. The only difference is that now they do NOT have to have committed a crime; all that is needed is probable cause. If true, that is, in my opinion, un-American. Obviously, if that is not the case, and the law simply allows them to do what they were already able to do, then why was it passed?
    Ok, I get it now. I agree, and will wait for clarification.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Obviously, if that is not the case, and the law simply allows them to do what they were already able to do, then why was it passed?
    Simple. Election-year pandering to the politics of division, fear, and hate. Without the bully pulpit of the White House to strike fear about imminent attacks and Code Orange alerts, the State level is doing the dirty work.
  18.    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by nimer55 View Post
    that last line is what leads to racism. (im not saying your racist, or will be) how is being born somewhere something to be proud, or ashamed of? You didn't do anything, two people had sex, and you where born where your mom was.

    and can we stop referring to illegal immigrants as criminals? While technically they are braking the law, it's very different then what we usually mean when we say a criminal. It's people who's economical life sucks so much, they are willing to risk going to jail, in an attempt to work a crazy amount of hours at low pay to feed their families. I'm not saying let them do whatever they want, I'm just saying be respectful. These are not bad people, these are people looking for a better life through extream hard work. Considering usa was made from not ony using, but stealingland that didn't belong to us, ee can have some sympathy. O yea,we killed 25 million people in the process..


    they are not bad peole, they are people whos interest and yours conflict.


    (typed from pre, so there might be some errors.)

    If being proud to be an American makes me a racist then I guess I am a racist some might call that being "Patriotic"

    The only conflict I have with illegal residents is the fact that they are illegal.
    Marching in the USA with another countries flag and throwing bottles at our police man that are just trying to do their job is also criminal behavior.
  19. Micael's Avatar
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    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    ... displaying illegal Canadian behaviors ....
    Tha's easy. All Canadian behaviors are illegal, or should be!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Banger View Post
    Gay people seem to be proud of being gay. Were are the Straight Pride parades or meetings?
    Straight Pride Parade:

    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

    "I don't mind paying taxes. With taxes, I purchase civilization."
    - H.L. Mencken
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