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  1. groovy's Avatar
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    #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    lets face it, there is only one way to stop the "illegals" in your country. Stop paying them. Its Americans who hire them, at lower pay scales. Its Americans who drive the need for these people to come across the border. If there was no work for them, then they would not come. At least the vast majority of them anyway. Why do they come, they come for the money. Slapping some fine American with a fine for hiring some poor ******* who is only trying to feed his family, is not enough if you really want to stop this. Throw these Americans in jail, and fine them. This will quickly stop the "illegals" from coming into your country.
    How will you know those Americans are hiring illegal immigrants if we can't check anyone's immigration status?
  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #202  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    How will you know those Americans are hiring illegal immigrants if we can't check anyone's immigration status?
    DOH! I knew we were forgetting something!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #203  
    Quote Originally Posted by Flak1969 View Post
    The Mexican President calls this bill discriminatory and warns it will weaken America & Mexico relations. I think he is a hypocrite because they have very tough border security at their southern border. What would happen with you if you just walked into Mexico? Illegal entry into the United States is a crime so stop trying to combine legal immigration with illegal entry.


    Born in the USA and proud of it.
    I fully support it as well. Its astonishing that representatives of America would protest a law which forces all illegal immigrants to legalize or go home.

    So they want to overturn this law, so that we continue to allow illegals to cross our borders. Great. Sure. Let them overcrowd our hospitals while paying nothing for the medical treatment, thereby causing the med insurance premiums on the REST of us - the legal citizens - to skyrocket. Hospitals will close due to the refusal of these people to pay med bills.

    Essentially though, by allowing this to continue, we are telling everyone.. our laws don't matter. They don't mean anything. Come in feel free to walk all over this country and its people. Exploit the begeesus out of it and give as little as possible back for the privileges our liberal govt give them at no cost whatsoever.. come here and live illegally, so you can escape taxation and accountability, but enjoy the rights the REST of the legal citizens have to PAY for. Nevermind the fact that YOU won't reciprocate the same treatment to US if we try to come live in YOUR country.

    This country is just infected with a truly diseased, liberal mentality.

    The dems' slogan song should be the Peppers' ..... "give it away, give it away, give it away now"

    Go ahead dems, give it all away. while we're at it, give constitutional rights to those who want to destroy us too. Gotta be the "bigger" person, right? Make our forefathers proud indeed.
  4. #204  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    How will you know those Americans are hiring illegal immigrants if we can't check anyone's immigration status?
    lol nice, not what i said..

    Give me the reason why the illegals cross the border, simple, MONEY.
    Give me the reason why the Americans hire them, simple MONEY.

    Home builders, factories, etc etc etc all do it. Most if not all know they are hiring illegals.
    If it became onerous to hire illegals, where some fine upstanding American got dropped in to jail and fined heavly, there would no longer be a reason for these people to come to the country.
    If that means Immigration has to do its jobs, then so be it. But while they are hauling away the illegals, haul away the owners/managers of these companies.

    Id bet you damn near anything that Allen Greenspan, or Bill Gates or Joe Blow or Jane Doe, would scream bloody blue murder if they got their ***** hauled off to jail because one of their companies hired illegals. The same would apply to any owner/manager.

    Ps, who the hell is gonna cut the governor of Arizonias grass or clean his pool or fix his roof etc etc if this law really takes off.lololol
    Last edited by xForsaken; 04/29/2010 at 03:43 PM.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  5. Micael's Avatar
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    #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    The dems' slogan song should be the Peppers' ..... "give it away, give it away, give it away now"
    Whoa whoa whoa! Slow down there Tex! I like the Peppers, and particularly that song! Don't ruin it for me!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    I fully support it as well. Its astonishing that representatives of America would protest a law which forces all illegal immigrants to legalize or go home.

    So they want to overturn this law, so that we continue to allow illegals to cross our borders. Great. Sure. Let them overcrowd our hospitals while paying nothing for the medical treatment, thereby causing the med insurance premiums on the REST of us - the legal citizens - to skyrocket. Hospitals will close due to the refusal of these people to pay med bills.

    Essentially though, by allowing this to continue, we are telling everyone.. our laws don't matter. They don't mean anything. Come in feel free to walk all over this country and its people. Exploit the begeesus out of it and give as little as possible back for the privileges our liberal govt give them at no cost whatsoever.. come here and live illegally, so you can escape taxation and accountability, but enjoy the rights the REST of the legal citizens have to PAY for. Nevermind the fact that YOU won't reciprocate the same treatment to US if we try to come live in YOUR country.

    This country is just infected with a truly diseased, liberal mentality.

    The dems' slogan song should be the Peppers' ..... "give it away, give it away, give it away now"

    Go ahead dems, give it all away. while we're at it, give constitutional rights to those who want to destroy us too. Gotta be the "bigger" person, right? Make our forefathers proud indeed.
    hmmm the reason your health care is skyrocketing is not because of the illegals,
    They pay taxes much like everyone else, that is fact.
    hmmmm last i checked many americans, not all, many, insist that they carry their rights from the U.S. to whatever country they are traveling in. Yes, I have experianced that first hand, on many many occasions.
    Exploitation, hmmmm I believe Americans do that just fine on their own, again not all, but many.
    To blame the Dems, lol what a crock, let me get this straight, in one breath you fine Libertarians/Republicans are screaming about your Patriot Act, how restrictive it is, etc etc to the point you have UNREGULATED MILITIAS threatening to do this or that.. To the point of a couple of them blowing up buildings etc etc,, but it was brought in by Bush. Now you feel its alright to stop Americans and demand their birth certificates or some other form of ID on the maybe chance they might be an ILLEGAL. hmm Gotta love this stuff.
    Life is short, Play hard, and enjoy every moment as if it was your last.
  7. groovy's Avatar
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    #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    hmmm the reason your health care is skyrocketing is not because of the illegals,
    They pay taxes much like everyone else, that is fact.
    Uh, no. They pay taxes but not like everyone else. How many are paying income/payroll taxes?
  8. groovy's Avatar
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    #208  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    lol nice, not what i said..

    Give me the reason why the illegals cross the border, simple, MONEY.
    Give me the reason why the Americans hire them, simple MONEY.

    Home builders, factories, etc etc etc all do it. Most if not all know they are hiring illegals.
    If it became onerous to hire illegals, where some fine upstanding American got dropped in to jail and fined heavly, there would no longer be a reason for these people to come to the country.
    If that means Immigration has to do its jobs, then so be it. But while they are hauling away the illegals, haul away the owners/managers of these companies.

    Id bet you damn near anything that Allen Greenspan, or Bill Gates or Joe Blow or Jane Doe, would scream bloody blue murder if they got their ***** hauled off to jail because one of their companies hired illegals. The same would apply to any owner/manager.

    Ps, who the hell is gonna cut the governor of Arizonias grass or clean his pool or fix his roof etc etc if this law really takes off.lololol
    So are you for or against law enforcement being allowed to ask for immigration status? If you aren't, my point stands. If you are then how do you propose they do it?
  9. #209  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    So are you for or against law enforcement being allowed to ask for immigration status? If you aren't, my point stands. If you are then how do you propose they do it?
    What's the probable cause compelling an officer to ask?
  10. Micael's Avatar
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    #210  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Uh, no. They pay taxes but not like everyone else. How many are paying income/payroll taxes?
    I can't vouche for the source, but here's an interest write up from the Tax Foundation:
    Immigrants and Taxes
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #211  
    Quote Originally Posted by baby-huey View Post
    This does not apply only to when you are driving your car but can be used in any situations such as walking down the street, or hanging out at you favorite corner. How many U.S citizens have documentation that proves that they are one, passport, birth certificate, naturalization certificate, social security? My guess would be that at least 1/4 of U.S citizens do not have documentation proving their citizenship. Next thing we know is they will require micro chips embedded in your skin with all your information to save you from this immigrants that are committing the crimes and stealing the jobs.This is after all the state that wants to pass legislation for the President of the United States to prove that he is in fact born in Hawaii, the so called birthers.
    R-E-A-D the bill. It states a valid drivers license will do. If you are walking around ANYWHERE without ID you can expect problems from the police no matter what color you are.
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    #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I answered you several posts back, mcmaster48. You can stop asking it now.
    Actually I don't think you did answer mcmaster's question. I asked it too earlier and no one provided a serious answer.

    So for everyone saying that this doesn't promote racial profiling (and I agree that the language of the bill does not promote it - but let's talk about the real world application of the law for a second) let's see someone let their imagination flower and come up with a hypothetical situation where a person is reasonably suspected to be in the US illegally that does not 1) occur during a border crossing; or 2) involve primarily a determination of the person's race based on appearance or speech?
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  13. #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Uh, no. They pay taxes but not like everyone else. How many are paying income/payroll taxes?
    I think you should inform yourself a little more before spewing bs about immigrants abusing services since most of health care costs are incurred in old age when this people are in Mexico and plus its not like they do not want to pay taxes its just the opposite .

    Case Study:
    How is the war on drugs that was started in the 1970's doing?

    Its not doing well, since the government is trying to prohibit a substance for which there is demand. Demand creates its own supply is the famous quote by Keynes which basically means that as long as drug hungry Americans are willing to pay for illicit drugs than someone will find a way to meet this demand, even if it means turning a country like Mexico in a war zone.

    Now lets apply Arizona thinking to the drug problem. U.S citizens clearly like hiring illegal immigrants because they get paid a lower wage since they do not have to pay half of payroll/social security taxes for said workers and do not have to abide by workplace safety rules for them. So there is clearly demand for illegal workers and Arizona instead of penalizing companies and entrepreneurs ( big money donors to Arizona politicians) that hire them it criminalizes the workers and creates a big brother initiative that stigmatizes a whole race.

    Another Unworkable Solution: Instead of targeting supply you target demand for illegal immigrants. The federal government already provides adequate tools for employers to verify the immigration status of its employees, although it would mean that the business would incur some costs in order to comply with the regulations. Companies found not to be in compliance with the rules would get fined not in thousands of dollars but a percentage of total revenue or some very onerous sum that would make the business community think twice about hiring illegals. The implementation of such a program could be paid with the fines levied and be comprised by a small task-force of relevant agencies. * An important caveat for the implementation of such a system would be the need for a visiting( legal) immigrant program like the Bracero Program in order to meet the demands of the market for labor. During the economic boom there were more jobs than people willing to take them or that had the skill required.

    Conclusion: This is an economic problem that should be solved with a cool head and based on hard facts. Not the feelings of one or the other about the costs of immigration. It has been U.S policy for more than a century now to encourage Free-trade as is evidenced by NAFTA, bilateral agreements signed with countless nations and our participation in the World Trade Organization. The problem is that the U.S envisages that Capital is the only factor of production that should have free movement. This creates a problem because it purposely fails to deal with Labor mobility. In order to have free-trade there needs to be freedom of movement for both labor and capital since the absence of both creates macro economic instability that lead to economic bubbles ( due to a overflow of capital) and job losses ( due to labor unbalances). If labor was free to move to the market that was more productive there would not be a need for whole industries to move to China. This happens because capital can move to where it can be used efficiently to produce the a product cheaper in China than could the same product be produced in the U.S
    If there was free movement of labor the Chinese would not enjoy the advantage of lower wages since the worker would be stupid not to the U.S where he could be paid a higher wages. The effect of this would be that the U.S and China would be both more competitive and not be any macroeconomic imbalances.
  14. groovy's Avatar
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    #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I can't vouche for the source, but here's an interest write up from the Tax Foundation:
    Immigrants and Taxes
    I think those are reliable numbers. So, assuming everyone using a tax ID to file income taxes is illegal, that still leaves out over 90% of that population. Presumably, they are either using fraudulent documentation to pay income taxes or not paying them at all.
  15. groovy's Avatar
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    #215  
    Quote Originally Posted by baby-huey View Post
    I think you should inform yourself a little more before spewing bs about immigrants abusing services since most of health care costs are incurred in old age when this people are in Mexico and plus its not like they do not want to pay taxes its just the opposite .
    I think you should revisit my point.
  16. #216  
    My wife is sick and we were in and out of the ER for years, sometimes 3-4 times a week.

    Can you guess who filled the waiting room almost every time?

    I live in California.
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  17. #217  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    My wife is sick and we were in and out of the ER for years, sometimes 3-4 times a week.

    Can you guess who filled the waiting room almost every time?

    I live in California.
    Who?
  18. #218  
    Quote Originally Posted by scribe4food View Post
    No that is not what I'm implying. What I'm saying is that the 4th is being adhered to now. There is no reason why it should change police procedures when the cops feel there is a justifiable reason to question someone's citizenship. And I never implied that the police were ignoring the 4th.
    Let's see. This is exactly what you said:

    I'm sure the 4th amendment is applied when cops pull people over and discover a justifiable cause to search someone's vehicle, only to discover keys of cocaine. The 4th amendment isn't be all, end all arguement. If there is a justifiable cause, then I support a cop inquiring of your legal status. if you feel that your "God given rights" were violated, i'm sure Internal Affairs will assist you, as well as a lot of non-profit groups that specialize in Amendment violations.
    Sounds to me like you were saying the 4th amendment is not being followed. I don't consider anything "God given rights". I consider these kind of rights to be provided by...the Bill of Rights. You know, unreasonable search and seizure.

    When police conduct a search, the amendment requires that the warrant establishes probable cause to believe that the search will uncover criminal activity or contraband. In other words, they must have legally sufficient reasons to believe a search is necessary.
    Please tell my how one determines "legally sufficient reasons" that a search will uncover criminal activity? Could it be shoes? Clothes? Skin color? Answer: Yes, it could be in Arizona. That option is there for them to use. Essentially they're saying "oh, we're not going to do it that way at all". But they could, and why should we believe them? They should not have the option.
  19. #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by sweaner View Post
    No, I haven't been to jail. Should I? I really don't get your point. Of course, crimes are of varying degrees of severity, but a crime is still a crime.

    Has anyone against the bill given a good alternative? And not "just make them legal." That would not help, as we would still be paying for them.

    Maybe the libs can set up a fund to pay their way. I provide thousands of dollars of my services for free to illegals every year. (not voluntarily, I have no choice) How many of you do that?
    Actually there is an alternative. Go after the companies that are hiring illegals. Supply will stop if you eliminate the demand...
    "Brace yourself, you beautiful *****. I am about to **** you up with some truth!" - Kenny Powers

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  20. groovy's Avatar
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    #220  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    Actually there is an alternative. Go after the companies that are hiring illegals. Supply will stop if you eliminate the demand...
    How do you know they're hiring illegals?
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